(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

5 years ago



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#851 5 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Heck, a million probably is even way too low.

The number a few of us came up with in 2007 was around 4 million, and we were laughed at by industry insiders as they thought it was too low. Keep in mind this was including a proper "factory" not just a garage and a couple playfield rotisseries.

#852 5 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

Just to refresh some old discussions its common for license break down to be about $25 a game total So $10k just for the kalua would be too much.

Yeah but on a 9K pin, doesn't that total per game increase?

#853 5 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

You're acting like DP is already the Bernie Madoff of pinball and now it's a race to get money out before it's too late. I don't think we're there. I would think that anyone starting a pinball company should have at least a good million in cash to ensure the game could be made and made right without having to take customer money. Heck, a million probably is even way too low. You need that to start a dive bar in NYC

A million in cash doesn't start a pinball company... I can guaranty u.

#854 5 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

A million in cash doesn't start a pinball company... I can guaranty u.

Then how did Skit-B get off the ground?

48
#855 5 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Then how did Skit-B get off the ground?

let us know when they actually get off the ground

#856 5 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Yeah but on a 9K pin, doesn't that total per game increase?

No... What u sell the game for doesn't dictate the license fee...there's a cash number they want. U base that number off how many u know u can sell. Once u exceed that number of sales u did well. Ur license is for a time period, if u didn't sell that total u expected tuff cookie, u have to buy the license again to extend the production period...

#857 5 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Then how did Skit-B get off the ground?

They're not off the ground yet.
They have yet to actually produce or ship their first game let alone their second game.
All they have so far after almost 3 years is an almost finished sample game.

#858 5 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Then how did Skit-B get off the ground?

U said a pinball company not a boutique shop making 200 games. A pinball company making thousands of games is more then 1mill... Much much more

#859 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

BARRY IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE PLANET FROM HIM.

Yes, Barry is on the other side of the planet - taking in sales/payments for Dutch Pinball USA Inc., but funneling the money to HIS PayPal account in The Netherlands.

So he won't officially take ownership of DP USA, but he will make sales under its name, but send the money to himself? --Leaving me with the responsibility for Inc.

At this point, I'm about considering filing a police report. I'm already filing a complaint with PayPal to block his new account.

Barry, please, just take over the rest of Inc. Then it's ALL yours to manage as you see fit.

#860 5 years ago

Mario, tell Barry that what he is doing is illegal. Tell him to STOP following Jaap's advice. Tell him to stop going to these shows - I told him NO on Houston. No to NYC. With no finished machine, they just cost lots of money, for little return.

Tell him to ignore fake deadlines and made up sales targets. Let him just focus on making a good machine, and be open about it. The sales will come LATER.

We know the Pin community is harsh, but it is also VERY understanding if they know what's going on.

#861 5 years ago

#862 5 years ago

Phil, what did your lawyer say when you asked him how to exit DP USA? I can't believe that he/she/they would have told you to come explain yourself on Pinside.

Edit: not that I'm against having the info. We all appreciate getting details on what's happening when something comes up.

#863 5 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

No... What u sell the game for doesn't dictate the license fee...there's a cash number they want. U base that number off how many u know u can sell. Once u exceed that number of sales u did well. Ur license is for a time period, if u didn't sell that total u expected tuff cookie, u have to buy the license again to extend the production period...

That depends on what was signed. When we dealt with Disney and Nintendo there was a fee, then royalties per item. License is a time period, yes. They would not be able to produce any more unless it was renewed.

-3
#864 5 years ago

It's not that simple to take over a company over in the US if you are not a US citizen. So it isn't just a formal paper.
Every business argument is based on money. This argument started around begin november i think so all the info is 6 weeks behind. Ofcourse the licensing part is drama, it always is! Othen pinball manufacturers should have the same problems. Nothing to worry here. Also it's pretty obvious that you first make your software and after that you ask if its oke at the licenseholder. It are prototypes and not commercial machines, this makes a lot of difference. Also not all licising is based on US law but also Dutch/European.

As for this conflict, let's presume that the USA company isn't free and there ware some conficts about stakeholdership. That's pretty normal. Case closed but someone needed to start an epic rant.

In the end is't all about the money

#865 5 years ago

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#866 5 years ago
Quoted from Benboogaard:

It's not that simple to take over a company over in the US if you are not a US citizen. So it isn't just a formal paper.

For nearly NINE MONTHS I've told Barry and Jaap to go to the IRS and get an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number. I even gave them the forms and told them exactly what to fill out.

So yes, it is just a simple paper.

Quoted from Benboogaard:

presume that the USA company isn't free

Don't presume that. They can have it. I've already said, I make ZERO claim to any future profits.

#867 5 years ago

What I don't understand is why I got a refund?

I'm in the UK so why the hell did my deposits go to DP USA?

Not that I'm complaining as I am now going to leave it in the bank until this cluster fu%& get sorted out, so I'll be without a rug and chrome finish, but at least I'll get to see a finished machine.
For me if the call-outs are lacking due to the Goodman licence issue then I'm out!

I don't think Phil is going about this the right way, airing his dirty washing in public! Especially as I understand one of the DP guys has had a family bereavement and as such not able to counter any statements made here.

Added to that what AloneMordakai said 'Phil, what did your lawyer say when you asked him how to exit DP USA? I can't believe that he/she/they would have told you to come explain yourself on Pinside'.

#868 5 years ago

I can't help but think.. Phil you are a master at marketing.....good & bad... I think if what you have posted is true in regards to the PF art but I don't think it can't be sorted out. What is going to prevent the game from being made is the deposits that have been returned and the scaremongering which is stopping people from redirecting payment.

When Phil returns deposits from DP USA. Does that not exclude him from prosecution, as DP USA has taken no money. Obviously Phil also wants to do right by the people he sold to and outline the problems DP had before he left. That was 1month ago. What has been going on since then? Who is the PR with UNIVERSAL now?

Barry,Japp & team need to reply, but I understand the circumstances as to why Japp has not.

#869 5 years ago

I didn't preorder TBL, I don't know Phil, Barry or Jaap in person.

From my objective point of view.

I can 100% understand, why Phil has taken those actions from what I read.

But being faced with these "facts", I would not write a single line in this forum without having in depth legal advice by an expert, if I was Barry or Jaap. Maybe that is why we havn't heard anything of them right now. We are not only speaking of refunds but also about massive! licencing issues, which can outnumber the refund liabilities by far.

Seeing the team setup of DP...
http://www.thebiglebowskipinball.com/about_us
... all experts - so I am wondering, how could this happen to such an ambitious project.

#870 5 years ago
Quoted from jrawlinson_2000:

For me if the call-outs are lacking due to the Goodman licence issue then I'm out!

Someone will come out with an underground ROM upgrade to put them back in, don't worry!

Personally, if I were Phil, and if I saw DP really as my friends, and if I really wanted DP to be successful and TBL to be a success, as Phil said he does, then the way I'd have gone about getting their attention while at the same time pulling myself out from the burden of having the cash in an account I don't want responsibility for, then I'd have made the refunds with a calming note explaining why I'm doing it, but at the same time trying not to freak the customer out, but also advising that there are some licensing issues that need sorting out... I'd also refrain from posting to a public forum that Barry is a thief... Why would I do that if he's my friend and if I want DP to be successful? Also, if I was thinking of my future life on this planet and wanted it to be as calm as possible, for myself and my family, I also wouldn't stir things up and open myself to liable action from making accusations about things that could be dis-proven... Maybe Barry had rights to those funds as being profit from BOP 2.0, maybe he'll want to take legal action against Phil... What benefit is it to Phil OR to DP to state these things?? Phil wants DP and TBL to be a success right? So I just don't get his actions if that's true, and I don't understand how making these statements helps his family... Surely it can only cause problems to him and to DP... no?

#871 5 years ago

damn at what point do you get on a plane and tcb in person. Talk about a cluster

#872 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

I'd have gone about getting their attention while at the same time pulling myself out from the burden of having the cash in an account I don't want responsibility for, then I'd have made the refunds with a calming note explaining why I'm doing it, but at the same time trying not to freak the customer out

That was actually the plan. I gave HIM the choice how to proceed.

I even told Barry that I would write a nice text about how we just wanted to transfer the funds from my PayPal account to his PayPal account.

#873 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

Mario, tell Barry that what he is doing is illegal. Tell him to STOP following Jaap's advice. Tell him to stop going to these shows - I told him NO on Houston. No to NYC. With no finished machine, they just cost lots of money, for little return.
Tell him to ignore fake deadlines and made up sales targets. Let him just focus on making a good machine, and be open about it. The sales will come LATER.
We know the Pin community is harsh, but it is also VERY understanding if they know what's going on.

Before I start receiving death threats: I can't tell him, I only met these guys once at DPO and don't know them personally. By accident, I live in the same country. What I do know is that it's hard to recover from all the trash that's been posted here by their "good friend"...

But hey, I can understand the reactions here. I followed the TBL threads a bit:

from "WOW, there's going to be a TBL machine! Great! Epic! Wonderful!",

then to "WTF is this? Only a shitty paper? I think it's all a load of crap..."

to "Holy cow! These guys have a working prototype in just 3 days! Halleluja!"

again within 20 hours to "OMG, Phil has really opened our eyes! This is all a big scheme to "DP" us and take our money"

and even with some "I bet we can do this better ourselves, in 15 minutes we could set up shop".

If it didn't cause so much damage, I would actually LMAO with all this soap...
But I guess that is Pinside. It's like a Borderline personality on steroids...

#874 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Personally, if I were Phil, and if I saw DP really as my friends, and if I really wanted DP to be successful and TBL to be a success.....

I'm starting to wonder whether Phil may have inadvertently sabotaged this project by spooking out everybody over issues that may have already been worked out.

#875 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

I even told Barry that I would write a nice text about how we just wanted to transfer the funds from my PayPal account to his PayPal account.

I'm a bit puzzled, I don't know how these PayPal accounts work... so the only way to clear the account you are responsible for is to refund the people who paid in..?? It wasn't possible to just transfer the funds to DP NL, as you gave the option to Barry... he had to accept before the system would allow it? I understand Barry is now trying to get those funds, but you don't want him to... so you want to transfer the funds to DP NL, but at the same time you don't want DP NL to get the funds?? I'm very confused?? Another thing that's confusing me is how does publically stating that he's a thief help either DP (who you wish success to) or yourself... or anyone?

#876 5 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

I'm starting to wonder whether Phil may have inadvertently sabotaged this project by spooking out everybody over issues that may have already been worked out.

I was thinking exactly the same here...

Quoted from pinballslave:

Another thing that's confusing me is how does publically stating that he's a thief help either DP (who you wish success to) or yourself... or anyone?

It will not. It will only start the "let's all leave the ship" scenario that bankrupted even the biggest banks in the last few years.

#877 5 years ago

I'm struggling to see any inadvertentness (or is it inadvertence...?) myself...

15
#878 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

I'm a bit puzzled, I don't know how these PayPal accounts work... so the only way to clear the account you are responsible for is to refund the people who paid in..?? It wasn't possible to just transfer the funds to DP NL, as you gave the option to Barry... he had to accept before the system would allow it? I understand Barry is now trying to get those funds, but you don't want him to... so you want to transfer the funds to DP NL, but at the same time you don't want DP NL to get the funds?? I'm very confused?? Another thing that's confusing me is how does publically stating that he's a thief help either DP (who you wish success to) or yourself... or anyone?

If he just transferred the money, he would still be liable because the money was paid to HIS account. Refunding the money takes him off the hook.

I'm shocked some of you people are trying to paint Phil as the "bad guy" here.

#879 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

I'm struggling to see any inadvertentness (or is it inadvertence...?) myself...

I was giving Phil the benefit of the doubt since he's still calling DP his "friends."

13
#880 5 years ago

Always difficult to know a full story but what seems clear is that Phil left the company 6 weeks ago. Why on earth does he have access to all these funds? No business would allow an ex employee to have access to anything - let alone money!

This cannot be his fault, it is not his responsibility once he has left.

#881 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Always difficult to know a full story but what seems clear is that Phil left the company 6 weeks ago. Why on earth does he have access to all these funds? No business would allow an ex employee to have access to anything - let alone money!

Hello, McFly! That's been Phil's WHOLE POINT! These people don't know how to run a business!

-2
#882 5 years ago

Why did anyone even pre-oder TBL if production isn't limited and they will sell you the rug separately?

#883 5 years ago
Quoted from F3TT:

I'm shocked some of you people are trying to paint Phil as the "bad guy" here.

I want DP and TBL to be a success... I don't see how Phil's actions have contributed towards that... By the way, I didn't say he was bad, I'm just asking him questions... The questions is, as-yet un-answered... how is stating that Barry is a thief helping DP, himself, his family or anyone? It's a question, not a statement that someone is bad...

#884 5 years ago
Quoted from F3TT:

Hello, McFly! That's been Phil's WHOLE POINT! These people don't know how to run a business!

Exactly.

#885 5 years ago
Quoted from frg:

But being faced with these "facts", I would not write a single line in this forum without having in depth legal advice by an expert, if I was Barry or Jaap. Maybe that is why we havn't heard anything of them right now. We are not only speaking of refunds but also about massive! licencing issues, which can outnumber the refund liabilities by far.

I agree. And I would also wait a while for things to settle down. We all know you can't really talk to or reason with an angry lynch mob...

Phil has said a lot and it's sad to see that many people all take his "evidence" as real facts and are already drawing conclusions based on that. If there are any people in this thread that went through a rough patch with their employer (maybe even resulting in losing their job) then they know what a single sided view that results in. If your employer is your best friend, as Phil states, this is even worse! All you want is prove you're right and bending the truth a bit or leaving out important details that could harm your point of view is the way to go then. Posting cash deposits to DP-BV stating that "it's them getting out the cash and using it for something else (where is the proof of THAT?) is nothing more than twisting reality. In every company there will be funds from one project used for another, that's not a big deal.

I think everything that Phil did in this thread is MUCH MORE HARMFUL than the actual truth about the status of licenses, financials and planning of TBL and BoB.

-1
#886 5 years ago
Quoted from F3TT:

If he just transferred the money, he would still be liable because the money was paid to HIS account. Refunding the money takes him off the hook.

Ah, I see... so he had to make the refunds and then the people he refunded would then have to re-pay into the DP NL account... I'm now puzzled why he didn't write the nice text as he offered to... not getting a reply to this offer is a strange reason to shoot the company down...

Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

I even told Barry that I would write a nice text about how we just wanted to transfer the funds from my PayPal account to his PayPal account.

I think you should have done this...

#887 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

I want DP and TBL to be a success... I don't see how Phil's actions have contributed towards that... By the way, I didn't say he was bad, I'm just asking him questions... The questions is, as-yet un-answered... how is stating that Barry is a thief helping DP, himself, his family or anyone? It's a question, not a statement that someone is bad...

That wasn't directed at you specifically. I've read this from start to finish, and I never saw Phil use the word thief.

From everything I've read, including the correspondence screenshots, he has bent over backwards trying to get the Dutch guys to step up and do things the right way. They essentially forced him to do this.

#888 5 years ago
Quoted from F3TT:

Hello, McFly! That's been Phil's WHOLE POINT! These people don't know how to run a business!

So stating publicly that they are thieves is teaching them how, yes?

#889 5 years ago
Quoted from F3TT:

That wasn't directed at you specifically. I've read this from start to finish, and I never saw Phil use the word thief.

If he said someone stole 60,000euro, that IS saying he's a thief...

Quoted from F3TT:

They essentially forced him to do this.

That is clearly the picture Phil is painting on here... Sure, it will help his friends and TBL succeed... thanks Phil, I feel my deposit more secure now... you are my hero

#890 5 years ago
Quoted from F3TT:

From everything I've read, including the correspondence screenshots, he has bent over backwards trying to get the Dutch guys to step up and do things the right way. They essentially forced him to do this.

I don't agree here. Once Phil started his mission, all the dirt came in a matter of 24 hours. No time to react to that because there ARE people around that aren't on Pinside 24/7...

14
#891 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

there ARE people around that aren't on Pinside 24/7...

WHO are these infidels?

#892 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

If he said someone stole 60,000euro, that IS saying he's a thief...

That is clearly the picture Phil is painting on here... Sure, it will help his friends and TBL succeed... thanks Phil, I feel my deposit more secure now... you are my hero

I think you read too much into that. He used the word "taken."

Quoted from Cenobyte:

I don't agree here. Once Phil started his mission, all the dirt came in a matter of 24 hours. No time to react to that because there ARE people around that aren't on Pinside 24/7...

His mission? This was a reaction to a bad situation.

I notice that those of you who are questioning what Phil has done are not from the USA.
First, I'll say I don't have any money in this, but I certainly want to see this pin made, and can't wait to play it.

Assuming everything Phil has written is true, I agree with his decision 100%. The man has a wife, young children, AND cancer! That means he has medical bills I cringe to think about. The guys in Holland are doing things with Universal's intellectual property that they should not be doing. Hollywood doesn't play games when it comes to this stuff. They will sue and ruin anyone they can over something like this. Phil's name and SS# are all over this. He is the easiest target should Universal decide to take action.

The man is protecting his family, pure and simple.

#893 5 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Why did anyone even pre-oder TBL if production isn't limited and they will sell you the rug separately?

Price increase and price for the rug!! Everyone loves FREE STUFF!

-1
#894 5 years ago
Quoted from F3TT:

I think you read too much into that. He used the word "taken."

The whole sentence was: "Barry had taken the €60,000. Jaap and I realized that we had no choice but to put back the money ourselves." So do you think he's saying that Barry took it legitimately as part of his salary? If so, why did Japp and him have to put the money back in?? The implication is that it was taken illegitimately.... i.e. stolen! This is very clear from what he said... why even comment on him taking money? I ask Phil again: What/who is this statement helping?? Does it help you? Does it help you family? Does it help DP? Does it help the TBL project? Does it help the pinballers who pitched in their deposits because they want the game? Or does it help the demise of DP and TBL?

#895 5 years ago

If what Phil says is true, they won't have enough money to refund people. In theory, if everyone asks for a refund, they won't have enough cash to pay out. 60,000 euros is what? 10 games? 12 games? But I don't think everyone will want a refund and things should be fine to get TBL off the ground. Still, scary moment for anyone with money down.

-4
#896 5 years ago
Quoted from F3TT:

Assuming everything Phil has written is true, I agree with his decision 100%. The man has a wife, young children, AND cancer! That means he has medical bills I cringe to think about. The guys in Holland are doing things with Universal's intellectual property that they should not be doing. Hollywood doesn't play games when it comes to this stuff. They will sue and ruin anyone they can over something like this.

"Assuming" being the operative word here.

I'm with pinballslave here. Every conclusion being drawn in this thread, every person trying to get out of this pre-order (which all of these guys paid with their sane minds, I assume), it all comes from the assumption that everything that Phil has written is the untainted truth. And there is also a lot of assumptions and conjecture on Phil's side, because he states "Barry has taken the €60.000" conjecturing that the money ended up in Barry's pocket.

Talking about law suits: isn't there a law agains slander? Over here in The Netherlands there is. If I destroy or even hurt a company using slander (even if it's based on (a partial) truth) you can get sued and pay a steep fine. I'm not sure if Phil considered this when he was busy getting himself "off the hook".

What I see is a man under the influence of his medical condition. Sure, it's very tough and I feel sorry for him, but it does not approve the way he handled things. It's the easiest and dirtiest way out of a legal commitment he put himself into to begin with. He keeps saying that he started asking 6 weeks ago, but what is 6 weeks when you need to arrange paperwork for foreign people to take over a US based company AND trying to build a pinball along the way? Sure, these Dutch guys may have been a bit tardy when it came to dissolving their legal bond with Phil, but does that make them deserve this shit storm? The only thing I have seen Phil do is dumping shit on Pinside to force them to dump him. To get approval from "the audience" for his actions.

And here he is: Phil the hero. You pre-order guys don't even realize that HE could very well be the main reason that you paid a lot of money and don't see a TBL pinball at the end of the line. As stated here: money has been invested in license and prototyping, so it's clear that not all money can come out when things go wrong. You can't see that Snowden caused 10 US soldiers their lives because of things he uncovered (that also got in the hands of our enemies), but hey, he uncovered a CIA plot against us civilians! Let's honor him...

#897 5 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

But I don't think everyone will want a refund and things should be fine to get TBL off the ground.

I hope you're right... Then the people who stay in will have a rarer game

People who got refunded by Phil will hold on to their cash (mainly), and I don't blame 'em... fear will make them do it... fear created by the panic that Phil, I suggest, has caused... I don't want to bail out because I don't want the ship to sink... they can work things out, but for the project to work, they need those who gave them the hope that it would work to stay on-board... Phil is not helping that cause...

#898 5 years ago

#899 5 years ago

I can see it now. Someone who can't get their money back will be at a show near the game and drop kick the bitch! Lol

30
#900 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

isn't there a law agains slander?

Yes, there are laws against slander (oral statements) and libel (written statements). However, the affirmative defense to both claims is universal: Truth. Making true statements, no matter how damaging, is not libelous.

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