This has absolutely nothing to do with what country each person lives.

I think you can... and I think they did... It might not be strictly legal, but if no-one notices it might not such a big problem if the issues are sorted out before the game hits production... unless a good friend publicises on a massive pinball forum, that might get it some attention

That's what I don't understand about Phil's words... he says the guys at DP are good friends, and he wishes them the best of luck and success at getting TBL made, but at the same time he seems to be doing everything in his power to trash the companies reputation by claiming publically that the main guy there is a thief... I can understand him getting worried about the legal implications of them not playing by the rules and wanting out, but if he genuinely wishes them success, why write such damning words on here that's going to help drive them into the dirt?

Thank you......^^^^^^^^^^^

Edit: These folks should go back and read the posts, a lot of "If", If they get pissed, if they pull the license, if they sue.....all of this license paranoia can be traced back to one pinball manufacturer loud mouth on here. To this day not one pinball guy has ended up in court or jail for license issues. All conjecture.

Wow. No, you can't. If you build a product based on a license and show it off before have gotten 100% sign off you risk being sued for millions of dollars. How would all those prepayers feel if their funds were used not for bulidng pinball machines but instead for lawyers defending a lawsuit or as settlement for a lawsuit? This is why Stern does not preannouce games. There is so much at risk. They quite simply should not have accepted dollar one until they had 100% approval on a final design. End of story.

Not defending Phil as alternative approach was engaging a lawyer but....the man has cancer, two young children, requested multiple times to be removed from the business and transfer cash to DP-BV. They've ignored him. End of year, taxes coming, man has cancer and is dealing with mortality right now and his family well being. Role play, Phil is seeing the world through different glasses that I hope I don't ever have to wear. He wants this closed so his family is protected. His friends will not answer his calls, emails, messages. But have time for white russians in NYC. Desperate action to gain attention and a response from DP owners.

Not saying approach 100% correct but the other parties knowing their friend is battling cancer isn't in the right here either. The attention now on, Phil is looking for closure to focus on life. All sad in perspective for all parties.

Still confused as hell what we are supposed to do if we preordered over 45 days ago and PayPal does not honor that. And Phil wants to get rid of the money but cannot because he is just missing an email list. Anyone?

Thank you for saying this. As someone who has and still does face his mortality as being close, I can tell you that unless you yourself are in that position, it is not possible to imagine.

The correct word you are looking for is Ultimatum. (noun) a final demand or statement of terms, the rejection of which will result in retaliation or a breakdown in relations. final offer, final demand, take-it-or-leave-it deal

Um, pretty sure this "massive pinball forum" isn't noticed by anyone besides us pinball nerds. The drama here is very contained. That ship has sailed though, DP has already been publicizing the machine, for example:

http://www.polygon.com/2014/9/30/6875137/big-lewboski-pinball-photos-video

Let alone being at Expo and Modern (which are still inside baseball, a site like Polygon though is mainstream). So let's not try and point at this thread as some source of issue, if there is one. I didn't find out until after Expo that what was shown wasn't final. The video had the black box over the actors, but the game didn't, so I just assumed the video was made before approvals. I did know about the Khalua bottle of course, that was made obvious at the party with the tape over the bottles (which was brilliant).

RIP pot leaf graphic too.

Have you picked up the phone and called paypal? Tell them the other party hasn't shipped the goods and is declaring they won't. Don't rely just on the web automation.

Is there any other collector hobby that has this level of drama, strange communication, pre-order madness, money in limbo, ship date uncertainty? More ulcers than smiles lately.

In part thanks to you.

The good news is... if all parties are agreeable this thing isn't totally sunk.

Assuming DP make amends with Universal's licensing... they adjust the game as needed to get the approvals and UNI doesn't decide to flex their muscles... we assume a game design gets green-lit for production. Sounds like changes are a high probability, but that doesn't mean the game can't be done at this point. Just different from what we've seen so far.. with probably more delays and higher pre-production costs. Maybe they should start contracting Roger Sharpe now and see if he's available on the side

The whole paypal/deposit thing will get sorted eventually... I'm sure DP will lose money in the mix.. trying to salvage customer relations when it comes to having to cover new transactions fees/etc. If they don't make it a zero cost for customers.. I'm sure that will be lots of bad blood that will run more people off.

Will DP keep a US entity? If not, that makes things difficult if everything is import only... presumably they are shopping for a North American partner to keep that from happening.

Will DP get the additional staff they need to make this project viable through this storm and production AND support? IMO that's one of the harder parts.

Will DP have the financial assets to weather the storm of people that will invariably drop out of the preorder phase and to get through the legal struggles? No idea...

I appreciate Phil telling his side of the story and backing it up... but I fear he went too far with the discussion of future projects. Let's just hope DP have more interest in getting the game done than they do with legal pursuit.

Talk about some Dirty Laundry!

If this game finally gets made couldn't the playfield be left blank in the proposed "pot leaf location" and then a nice pot leaf mylar be later sold for $5 (or included in the machine) and later applied in that location?

QSS

Yeah its the customers fault... Mmmmkay

If DP USA files BK then all the preorder money is unsecured debt. Good luck getting it back. Sounds like DP guys in Europe did not want to take on that debt or they would have taken over by now. Yikes!

Has the whole world gone crazy ??!!

Then UNI would come back and haunt them. You can't just 'not install a part' to get around the legal issues. Your intentions and actions will bind you just as much as the shipping product. And willful violation of the law would only increase the damages the IP holder could pursue.

A 3rd party would have to do it.. independent of DP's actions.

You never know when I'll pop up. We have an office in Indy, and I end up in Muncie every couple of years too.

one of the issues not brought up yet here is the people who have claims beyond the 45 - 60 days. While Phil can send money to the customers once he can confirm their info, he will need to send them the funds collected to far back as a new payment a(after a certain amount of days the refund option is not available to the seller) this means he will have to eat the paypal fee's on both ends. That will add up quickly depending on the total amount collected past the 45 - 60 days marker. that 2.9% adds up fast

oh my god, this is fucking unbelievable...

Thanks for the explanation. Could the area just be left blank and let the after market sort it out?

QSS

About sums it all up!

Its unbelievable that im taking a stand for the customers you're berating because they want their money back on this whole mess? You're taking my comment out of context, I am in no way saying anything about the death of a family member.

RIP Pinball preorders.jpg

Just glad that JJP got off the ground before this payment model imploded.
It's going to be a lot harder now to launch another pinball company. Sigh...

you summed up how many of us are feeling about this project now!

Well, yes you are!! I just told you the reason why an answer might be a bit longer than you paranoid guys might expect it and you just turn it around, saying "it's the customers fault?". You are TOTALLY turning my words around and you're not even seeing it yourself. That's plain pathetic...

love the pic and hope all gets sorted out at some point.

Whatever dude, us customers aren't forming a lynch mob, we are scrambling to recover thousands of dollars from this mess of a pinball company. I've read all your posts, im not turning your word's around. Expecting people to be chill and sit tight and making it seem like we are paranoid, overreacting, or just plain crazy for not waiting to hear the other side of the story is a terrible idea. The way I see it, get your money back then wait for a response from the other side cause that money may not be there tomorrow.

At least you guys got your money back. That's a bonus.

Imagine if there was a not-yet-made pre-order pinball that you had paid... and you didn't get your money back... and due to licensing issues the game was not made...

Now that would suck. Suck even more than getting a refund. Hopefully that does not happen...

Now everyone understand why Phil had to duck out. He kept quiet for a while in hopes they could sort things out behind the scenes... but I suppose that didn't work out.

Having said all this, still totally possible that the DP guys sort this out, get the licensing, re-take the money, make the games and then ship them out. That would be epic... so lets hope for that.

Sorry to read all the drama.

I'm sure he offered the same advice to the guys in Australia. Idiot!

Hey what's going on in this thread?
Mwd7w.gif
Welp, I'm out - Good luck to all!

I knew it sounded familiar, Lo.

That is fucking genius

That's not actually the case. You can refund any transaction regardless of how long it's been. It's just after 45 days you cannot do it manually on the site. You have to call PayPal and request them to do it.

Let's accept that Phil, Barry and Jaap are all talented guys with the best intentions. There are no bad guys here, just partners that have fallen out due to differing business philosophies. Happens all the time.

Licensing is a big deal, but it's fixable. The big news is that the funds have not been carefully managed. Phil's situation proves that. It seems unlikely they have the resources left to build what they've promised, especially with the loss of faith this event has created. They need to show serious leadership now to recover the situation, but that's precisely the skill they've demonstrated weakness in.

BoP 2.0 and TBL still have momentum. If they're short on resources, I hope they're smart enough to seek out a bigger partner.

thats good to know. I paid of of pocket before was out several hundred but was better to know that customers were taken care of in a situation like this. I wonder how long it takes to put a lot of orders through over the phone with paypal, also paypal is crap on the phone though (based on my experience)

Yep they suck in terms of customer service. Totally agree this would be difficult to do but certainly can be done

If they're short on resources, I hope they're smart enough to seek out a bigger partner.

Maybe they should talk to Heighway Pinball.

still totally worth the time invested if you can skip the 2.9% fee for sending money back. if they had something like 50 - 100K that would easily be worth the time on the phone and loss of hair from being pulled out in frustration lol...

That would be a good idea, but go astep further, combine DP with Heighway, Skit-B and any other small pin company and combine resources and make a powerhouse. Sounds awesome but highly unlikely. There is a lot of creative minds in those groups.

Great points.

Go a step further and have these groups design the games but have Stern build them ala MMr or sell the designs to Stern for production.

better yet, just get them to all use the same manufacturer and sub the work out under a combined contract thereby allowing them to cut costs, they could also set up better customer support (imagine if 2 - 4 smaller companies all used the same back end parts) that would allow for future items to be easier to repair as well as solve issues for distributors to keep a smaller set of regular parts on hand.

Next pinball startup company?

Pinside Inc.

We can run it like a cooperative.

But seriously for those who do not know it takes about 15 minutes to setup a TIN. Not sure if that's been mentioned.

There is potential The door isn't shut yet...

Wow! What a goat fuck. I was about to send off a deposit. That's it ! No more deposits or pre order bullshit , after MMR hits my driveway I'm out .

Agreed! No one put down a deposit in the hopes of one day getting a refund. Perhaps DP finds this an opportunity to improve their business and communication.

This is why I always question the point when people say "I'll just challenge the payment and done, risk free". There is always risk even with paypal or American Express.

I love this post. Wish I could give you more than one thumbs up.

I'm going to take the next couple hours to sniff out the duplicate accounts...clearly a couple have popped up in this thread...