(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

4 years ago



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There are 3821 posts in this topic. You are on page 15 of 77.
#701 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Can't they just make the game with a bad voice-over to get it out of the door, and then buyers can change the voices to Goodman's voice using one of the various clever software tools out there... I didn't say that...

Sure, just like people change the songs in Metallica, it could be easily done.

Someone might even release a secret torrent file that has the entire soundtrack with bands that are generally never licensed (like CCR, Santana, Eagles and others that are missing from the movie soundtrack CD), and replaced movie quotes.

#702 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

The decision:
do we transfer Dutch Pinball Inc to Barry / Dutch Pinball BV
or
do I refund all the money, drain PayPal to zero, and shut the business down.

Phil, I'd like to think I speak for most - money back please as soon as possible so we can get off this f'n rollercoaster and then think about getting back on if our heads stop spinning and dp comes to the table w/ some clarity!

Seriously, I can't stress how much I would like my funds back dude.

Rod

16
#703 4 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

Send people their money... Let them decide to reinvest

That's what I've been doing, man. But I was at Oncology on Nov 24, and I'm back at the doc on Tuesday. I really don't have the strength to deal with this crap,

And again, they are funneling what should be DP USA payments directly to Holland
I have no customer list
no order history
no dutch pinball email address
I have no way of knowing who makes payments

BUT I am still liable.

All because he won't take DP USA -- for 6 weeks now.

uncool.

#704 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

The decision:
do we transfer Dutch Pinball Inc to Barry / Dutch Pinball BV
or
do I refund all the money, drain PayPal to zero, and shut the business down.

The right thing to do is refund the money to the senders, let them each decide what they want after hearing what has transpired.

#705 4 years ago

I agree -- that's why I started sending all the payments back.

#706 4 years ago

Phill,

I've been where you are before. I used to have a high end collectible store and had a distributorship for a toy line for NorthAmerica. This one company was taking forever to get their product done, meanwhile they were constantly developing new toys and exclsuives for the asian market (which makes sense and I had no issue with) but they had issues with communication. When I first started out with them they were very vocal in messages usually a several each day but as production ran on it became near non existent. Customers had preorders in for over six months and I held the money the whole time, (tax issues on preorders are a pain in the ass). At some point I was hoping to wrap up the online tore and close it up, the only problem was this one preorder that had become long long overdue. I sent messages to the owners of the property for a few months and each month I continued to pay bills on a company that I wanted to close up but kept it going as I felt it was important for customers to know their money was still there and the business was still around until their orders were shipped.

At some point I finally gave up and wrote an email press release explaining that there was lack of communication and that I was refunding the money. before I sent it off I sent a copy of the note to customers to the company I was dealing with and asked for some kind of information on the production schedule and explained that my costs were continuing to be incurred until this was settled. I heard nothing, and after 10 days I said screw it and sent the email to customers, posted the news on my website and refunded everyone.

I posted a lost as the preorders were past Paypals time frame so I couldn't just refund I had to send new payments (and eat the paypal costs both ways). I directed customers to the company and sent the company my database of customers with the request that they complete any orders from them (once they received payment directly). All the customers understood as I kept them in the loop as this was happening (i.e, when I recieved emails about the delays I sent an email to both the customer and the company )forwarding the communication with the company to the customer) so they understood. As with this case people were mainly concerned with getting their items. They eventually got them

Now that company still makes great toys. They haven't gone under. So I'm hoping that anyone dealing with this still gets their stuff done as well, but lack of communication can be hard if your the guy holding the ball, and at least in the USA that's Phil. Except it sounds like he's stuck without as many tools...

The only thing I would say Phil, coming from someone that was in a similar situation is this, I would share too many of the other details like other future projects. (though I know it must be tempting with the amount of funds you've already spent on this project).

As for the folks at DP, I am hoping it's like everyone else hopes, that they are making a great pinball and are going to deliver. But I'd be cautious until BoP gets done. That should tell you how the other projects will go.

#707 4 years ago
Quoted from anubis2night:

Here's my take so far, I am hoping everyone will be ok and that this pin gets made but in the meantime, at least so far, Phil's the only one chatting with customers and answering questions (beyond that quick press release posted by a 3rd party)beyond that, Phil is also actively giving back funds and being fairly open about it. To me that speaks more to his character than the rest of this. Also I'm highly suspicious of the BoP development at this point as those quick screen grabs show it seriously behind and lacking funds.
Ash yourselves this, if the BoP project can have these kind of problems and not have enough funds to complete that they have to dip into other funds (possibly TBL from the looks of it) where's the next round of funds going to come from when this project needs them to be completed?

Great another newly minted identity weighing in.

-30
#708 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

The decision:
do we transfer Dutch Pinball Inc to Barry / Dutch Pinball BV
or
do I refund all the money, drain PayPal to zero, and shut the business down.

We call that blackmail here.

Lol, always the same brown nosing down voters.

#709 4 years ago

As per my post way way back, dp should let us get our money back through Phil and as a sign of GOOD FAITH promise we can have our spots back IF we decide to get back in - right up until manufacture that is!

Someone usually has to take responsibility and it's usually the boss. Dp better have something formal and organized soon in regard to our money and security or possible lack thereof.

They can take on Phil (if the even choose to) publicly after.

Leaving Phil this long w the keys to our money boxes is insane and a serious question mark as to what the hell is going on.

Money back now please, say it again.

Rod

-10
#710 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Exactly. Meaning a full day, and zero response to the actual issues. They obviously know about it, people are getting private replies from Barry. They still did the DP party in NY. I'm sure they have their side of the story. Maybe Phil isn't 100% in the right here. But speaking of FGS, if you take thousands of dollars from people and the sky looks like it's falling, then you don't get to just chill and party and take your time, you need to reassure people.

You guys seem to forget that DP is not just Barry, it's 2 guys: Barry and Jaap. I assume they need to talk to each other about a proper reaction.

Maybe some of you are too damn busy setting up this lynch party that you stopped reading here, so I'll just type it for the third time, this time in capitals:

JAAP JUST BURIED HIS MOTHER YESTERDAY AND BARRY IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE PLANET FROM HIM.

Maybe this puts things a little bit in perspective when it comes to giving these guys some time to react to this raving lunatic...

11
#711 4 years ago

Holy crap Batman! I'm very sorry to read this thread (for Phil, DP, and pre-order owners), but this is better than half the stuff on TV. I've wasted a few hours, but read the whole thing. You can't make this shit up. Wow!

My .02:

1. DP should have taken Phil off all the company accounts. Email, ownership documents, PAYPAL - everything when he resigned. First thing you do when an employee leaves is shut them out of database access, email, credit cards, hell even phone. I could understand forgetting. But the employee/partner has been asking you to be removed - and you still don't do it?? This has "where there's smoke there's fire" warning all over it.

2. Why wouldn't DP owners immediately sign the ownership transfer papers of DP USA that Phil provided? This HAS to be addressed. Otherwise, it appears that DP does not want liability of the money collected in the USA for preorders but just wants access to the money to pay salary, supplies, and travel expenses. I'm not a lawyer but would be interested in the proper legal perspective on this. It appears like DP was limiting their "liability" and having Phil carry it all. What ramifications if the company had to shut down before production - who was on the hook? DP or DP USA?? If the latter, I get Phil wanting out as he was playing banker carrying all the risk. That would make DP have another meaning - check an adult porn site for what I mean. Caveat - if assumption of liability is accurate.

3. I STRONGLY suggest Phil contact Iceman per his offer to mediate a solution. Send a PM now. In fact, DP should contact Iceman as well. Great offer and one that should be leveraged by all.

4. I expect (based on preorder model) a boutique to burn through some of the cash to pay for parts, supplies, etc to build the pin. Traveling all over to drum up business I hope is on their dime. What amazes me by all (boutiques) is the lack of communication to the owners who provide the cash. Tis that time of year where everyone watches "It's a wonderful Life". Watch the movie - a run on the bank will absolutely sink the boutiques if only funding is from preorders. Need to step up communications if not funding yourself. Otherwise game over. Clock is ticking.

The license issues are concerning but could still be worked out. Not easy but salvageable. I don't blame Phil for whistle blowing as he's tried to get out - he's validated that in his communications examples - and for some reason DP will not acknowledge. Maybe he could have hired a lawyer to help quietly expedite things instead of a public forum - but role playing many may take the same approach to force DP to engage directly. Refunding money - good for pinsiders nightmare for DP. I see Phil as screaming for DP to respond to him and he will stop - and they continue to ignore. Odd (the guy burying his mother I totally get. So sorry to hear this. Other one, stop drinking white russians and step up to the plate)

Why does Phil need to find a new owner in USA - DP owns the product, I'm puzzled why it appears they are not willing to accept all business responsibility. If they believe in what they are building and all is legit, there are many people in the hobby that may have stepped up to help run the US operations. It's just odd.

I loosely know a few local DP people, and they are awesome straight shooters (Scott). I applaud the owners of DP and what they were trying to provide in products - great stuff. The business side, ouch. If this is showing the US how to build a game (as rumored part of their motivation) - I'd say back to the drawing board. Stern still has you beat on the business side. For all our sake please fix this.

RIP Pre-order model.

#712 4 years ago

Pinside #1 place for pinball on the web, also for jumping to conclusions and stating the obvious.

#713 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

That's what I've been doing, man. But I was at Oncology on Nov 24, and I'm back at the doc on Tuesday. I really don't have the strength to deal with this crap,
And again, they are funneling what should be DP USA payments directly to Holland
I have no customer list
no order history
no dutch pinball email address
I have no way of knowing who makes payments
BUT I am still liable.
All because he won't take DP USA -- for 6 weeks now.
uncool.

WTF?

Phil what is it that you need from us then to enact full refunds???

Rod

26
#714 4 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

We call that blackmail here.

Blackmail? You need to learn what that word means.

#715 4 years ago
Quoted from Soltic:

As per my post way way back, dp should let us get our money back through Phil and as a sign of GOOD FAITH promise we can have our spots back IF we decide to get back in - right up until manufacture that is!
Someone usually has to take responsibility and it's usually the boss. Dp better have something formal and organized soon in regard to our money and security or possible lack thereof.
They can take on Phil (if the even choose to) publicly after.
Leaving Phil this long w the keys to our money boxes is insane and a serious question mark as to what the hell is going on.
Money back now please, say it again.
Rod

So Phil has been out of the company for months yet DP has let him hold onto the money for months.

Am I missing something?

#716 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

You guys seem to forget that DP is not just Barry, it's 2 guys: Barry and Jaap.
Maybe some of you are too damn busy setting up this lynch party that you stopped reading here, so I'll just type is in capitals:
JAAP JUST BURIED HIS MOTHER YESTERDAY AND BARRY IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE PLANET FROM HIM.
Maybe this puts things a little bit in perspective when it comes to giving these guys some time to react to this raving lunatic...

Hmm... What exactly do they need to figure? Barry needs Jaap's permission to tell everyone that DP does in fact have the licenses in place and this is all a lie? This is a pretty black and white issue, did they produce these machines in violation of US law or not? Phil says they did... Somehow I don't think a meeting of the minds is going to clear this one up...

#717 4 years ago

Things look great at Stately Dutch Pinball Manor...

1418591990356.jpg 1418592025975.jpg 1418592084608.jpg
#718 4 years ago
Quoted from Soltic:

WTF?
Phil what is it that you need from us then to enact full refunds???
Rod

Yeah my question to him too... If this course of action can't be dissuaded; how is he going get the balance to zero if he no longer knows whom it should go to?

#719 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Great another newly minted identity weighing in.

Because I shouldn't have an opinion?

#720 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Yeah my question to him too... If this course of action can't be dissuaded; how is he going get the balance to zero if he no longer knows whom it should go to?

Does seem like a first come, first served situation and given his claim that some of the money has already been filtered out of the company, doesn't seem like there will be enough to go around...

#721 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Yeah my question to him too... If this course of action can't be dissuaded; how is he going get the balance to zero if he no longer knows whom it should go to?

I think what Phil is implying is that he needs the list from Dp and he's forcing them to the table.

Phil?

12
#722 4 years ago

edit stayed in

#723 4 years ago

Well, as well as can be expected for a Regus rental office suite. I don't think those doors are loading docks for thousands of pinball machines.

1418592306102.jpg 1418592449756.jpg 1418592480838.jpg
#724 4 years ago
Quoted from gamestencils:

The instant you show a product prototype or not with unapproved content and someone opts to preorder, you've just sold a product illegally and likely also deceptively.

But if you sell a refundable pre-order for the game, are you actually selling the game? If the person placing the pre-order can back out before the game hits production, and that person is told what the final version of the game will be like, he can then get a refund if he's not happy with the changes... so the buyer doesn't get stung, and in the end the licencing is all in order... Personally I'd prefer a TBL with Austin Powers doing the Goodman callouts than no TBL at all... and no cash because the company has gone belly-up!

Quoted from vid1900:

Someone might even release a secret torrent file that has the entire soundtrack with bands that are generally never licensed (like CCR, Santana, Eagles and others that are missing from the movie soundtrack CD), and replaced movie quotes.

Exactly!

#725 4 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

Guys, the only two people who can answer are Jaap who buried his mother yesterday and Barry who is traveling or has been traveling today from the NY event. Don't know his traveling schedule but usually traveling from US to Europe is overnight eg now
Is it thus really realistic to demand a response today or find it strange they didn't sofar ?
Give them a break. Do we want TBL to be made or not? I thought this was the dream theme for you Americans, apparently a dream is not worth fighting for in the US.

Make the TBL. Import finished machines to USA. Offer them for sale for immediate shipping or pick up.

Seems pretty straight forward.

27
#726 4 years ago

Whatever your opinion of Phil and his actions, at the end of the day he publicly quit this company 6 weeks ago, and has been left with the keys to the store all this time. When the initial refunds hit, there was confusion of why his name was even on them since he was thought to be long gone.

So, this is a failure of management at the top. This should have been dealt with 6 weeks ago, and we wouldn't be here today.

#727 4 years ago

Wheres the Dutch pinball is a scam thread

#728 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Whatever your opinion of Phil and his actions, at the end of the day he publicly quit this company 6 weeks ago, and has been left with the keys to the store all this time. When the initial refunds hit, there was confusion of why his name was even on them since he was thought to be long gone.

So, this is a failure of management at the top. This should have been dealt with 6 weeks ago, and we wouldn't be here today.

Bam!!!!

#729 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Umm, No dude. Not having this resolved until now is the issue. They had 2.5 months. That tells me a lot about how things are done. Now you say give them time.
Indicators with Tshirt delays BP2 and now this are what we call road markers and they tell a pretty good story.
For me there was one more odd thing that has left me uneasy. After I paid at the show and the charge went through I heard nothing and then a month later Barry answered an email I had. But he had to get my cards ending numbers. Email and address info again. It all worked out but the fact that it was all lost just left me uneasy.
One thing OK. But when its one after another and another...

I dunno
If we look at bop 2.0 it is late but it's has full endorsement and licensing rather than a rogue skill release. Seems like they're crossing T and dotting the i's

#730 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Whatever your opinion of Phil and his actions, at the end of the day he publicly quit this company 6 weeks ago, and has been left with the keys to the store all this time. When the initial refunds hit, there was confusion of why his name was even on them since he was thought to be long gone.
So, this is a failure of management at the top. This should have been dealt with 6 weeks ago, and we wouldn't be here today.

EXACTLY.

Barring a funeral, you've got a partner that can at least assure us our monies are safe and returnable as we were promised.

Someone should man the fuck up now on that level.

Sorry but getting more aggravated.

Rod

#731 4 years ago

Jesus....just wasted half a day to read through this craziness.
Fuck it dude, ....
Lets go bowling.

#732 4 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

We call that blackmail here.
Lol, always the same brown nosing down voters.

No, it's because it isn't blackmail you idiot.

-1
#733 4 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

No, it's because it isn't blackmail you idiot.

Depends how you're looking at it...get me out today or I'll yell "Fire" in the theater.

#734 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

But if you sell a refundable pre-order for the game, are you actually selling the game? If the person placing the pre-order can back out before the game hits production, and that person is told what the final version of the game will be like, he can then get a refund if he's not happy with the changes... so the buyer doesn't get stung, and in the end the licencing is all in order... Personally I'd prefer a TBL with Austin Powers doing the Goodman callouts than no TBL at all... and no cash because the company has gone belly-up!

Exactly!

You can't publically display unlicensed content, period.

#735 4 years ago

Hello Phil.

Requesting my refund of $4500 made on October 3rd. Name is Darin Jacobs

Will get back in once this is sorted out. I love the TBL theme and the prototype I played.

Will be praying for your healing and for your family who has to watch you suffer.

All my best
Darin

#737 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

You guys seem to forget that DP is not just Barry, it's 2 guys: Barry and Jaap. I assume they need to talk to each other about a proper reaction.
Maybe some of you are too damn busy setting up this lynch party that you stopped reading here, so I'll just type it for the third time, this time in capitals:
JAAP JUST BURIED HIS MOTHER YESTERDAY AND BARRY IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE PLANET FROM HIM.

1) This outcome was not unnanounced - this was not a suprise.. they probably just didn't think he'd go through with it. So they obviously are disorganized enough to NOT be ready for this.. even before it went through.
2) This started Saturday morning... Barry would have still been in NYC from the Modern Pinball event
3) They knew this was happening as they sent out the VIP email response.
4) Phones work across timezones.. as well as every other form of communications. You'd think legal snafus that involve money in the 6 figure range may warrant a bit of attention... even to Phil.

#738 4 years ago
Quoted from Gryszzz:

Jesus....just wasted half a day to read through this craziness.
Fuck it dude, ....
Lets go bowling.

I'm in. I'm lucky to break 100, but I'll drink and throw a ball down the lane.

#739 4 years ago

If DP can explain all of this to the "pre owners" satisfaction I would like to see the terms changed to something like $1000 deposit and the balance when your game is ready to ship.

#740 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Depends how you're looking at...get me out today or I'll yell "Fire" in the theater.

No it's not, blackmail is for personal gain, there is no blackmail.

#741 4 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

We call that blackmail here.
Lol, always the same brown nosing down voters.

Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

No, it's because it isn't blackmail you idiot.

Neither is it brown nosing.

I am grateful that Phil got me out of the unstable DP, USA.

I am hopeful that Barry and Jaap can convince me to return to DP, BV, but they need to respond in a convincing fashion by:
(1) demonstrating that licensing is absolutely not an issue;
(2) explaining why displaying unlicensed work won't endanger the project;
(3) clearly expressing what licensing is locked up and what is still up in the air preferably by revealing a prototype/graphic of a pin whose sound and graphics are more realistically representative of what purchasers can expect;
(4) clarifying that funds for TBL are NOT being used to fund BoP 2.0;
(5) delivering BoP 2.0 (as a demonstration of their ability to deliver a finished product);
(6) getting Phil out of DP entirely as seems to be the mutual agreement several weeks ago, including access to DP, USA or DP, BV funds;
(7) providing an up-to-date diagram of DP's organizational structure with comprehensive demarcation of responsibilities;
(8) assembling a rough and up-to-date timeline of BoP 2.0 and TBL completion of licensing, acquiring materials, beginning/completion of production, and beginning/completion of delivery.

A convincing explanation of the apparent unwillingness of DP-BV to assume control/responsibility over DP-USA with the dismissal/resignation of Phil 6-7 WEEKS ago would be nice, as well.

That's what it would take for me, personally, to put my gratefully refunded money back into TBL as a preorder. Otherwise, I will wait for a final product to be shipping and decide then (as many have advocated doing in the first place).

#742 4 years ago

Wolf I hope you come through IN sometime....I would love to toss back some cold ones with ya homie.
And Rod....thanks again for taking me and Violent Steve (violinsteve), up to TBL penthouse party. The dropper of liquid THC in my beer from pencil-thin mustache guy was mind blowing !! I owe you a White Russian (Kaluha-free, of course)....and Im sure all of this will work out.
Thanks dude.
Phil I wish you the very best this holiday season, get some rest man, this is just pinball.

#743 4 years ago

I'm still in and could not care less about the money I've already put into this project.
But I do have two payments left to make and currently I'm hesitent to make the third that is due on the 31th.
So it better get solved by then, as I may have to pull the plug otherwise, as many have already done before me...

#744 4 years ago
Quoted from RyanStl:

All I can say is wow. Maybe it's my fault. I move to Kirkwood MO and there are two major, national news stories. Mayor and council gunned down and guy gets caught holding captive and molesting a boy for several years after a failed attempt to get another. Then you have Ferguson.
Four months ago I join Pinside and there has been constant drama. I watch the live streams of the Chicago show and love what I saw with TBL. This news really takes the cake.
I really hope this pin gets built and people get them without losing money because this has a lot of promise, and I'd love to have a go on one.

With all due respect, this issue is far from murder, child molestation, and the issues in Ferguson.

#745 4 years ago

Barry just emailed thru a time portal and advised that coin mechs are now to be included. If light boards become an issue, techs will be flown in for repairs. He has now taken over mmr production and is making a new version of TWD LE in january. Anyone with any questions should open a new identity with less than a 230 feedback and weigh in heavily. If not involved at all, just post a nonsensical sarcastic post, sit back with a hard cider and be thankful you are not invested in any fictional pinball machines.

#746 4 years ago

wow this thread has gone crazy

#747 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

The decision:
do we transfer Dutch Pinball Inc to Barry / Dutch Pinball BV
or
do I refund all the money, drain PayPal to zero, and shut the business down.

If you shut the business down then what happens to all the people that paid with square?

10
#748 4 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

Yeah....
You are a real friend.....
Real friends go sit around the table and talk about the bad air. Trying to solve the problems. Not go out in public with the dirty laundery.
Thats what an enemy does, not a friend.
Good luck in finding what you want. Hope you get it and you all can shake hands afterwards. But this aint the correct route, in my humble opinion.

You are a douche.

Feel free to disagree.

#749 4 years ago
Quoted from musketd:

If you shut the business down then what happens to all the people that paid with square?

What about Paypal, have yet to get any refunds?! I also disputed the last charge(the one I could within 45 days) and that was already refused and closed. WTF?!

#750 4 years ago

Some intresting read for some

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria

Wait for the other side of the coin

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