(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

4 years ago



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16
#601 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Even if you're not on Phil's side, isn't it crazy to leave a dude who bailed on you in control of the money?

It's insane. One of the very first things you do when an employee/partner leaves a company is to ensure that they don't have the ability to access or control the finances. Even more so when it's not a amicable split. The fact that Phil was able to still do so almost a month and a half later is ridiculous.

#602 4 years ago
Quoted from Underspin:

Phil is apparently the only one in the company that gives a shit about the rules

Mark_It_Zero_by_Thirty3Grafix.jp... 30 KB

That is just hysterical given the context

#603 4 years ago
Quoted from Rick432:

Caramel and cheese mix?

Just butter (buttery). However, there were a few carmel pieces sprinkled in).

#604 4 years ago
Quoted from BrianMadden:

I don't understand what the big deal is really? DP have stated we can get refunds up until our machines are built.

DP has stated/implied a lot of things, some of which may not have been true.

I'm thinking that's the issue. You are acting like there is zero risk by staying in, and that's simply not the case.

Quoted from BrianMadden:

No drama either way.

That ship has sailed.

#605 4 years ago

So is there going to be another email sent to VIPs?

I can live with the playfield art changes but not having John Goodman VO would be a dealbreaker.

#606 4 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

So is there going to be another email sent to VIPs?
I can live with the playfield art changes but not having John Goodman VO would be a dealbreaker.

If the game gets made and it turns out this way..... We definitely need some custom Roms.

#607 4 years ago
Quoted from TaTa:

Really?! You would want to pay twice for something!!

I want the game to be made!

#608 4 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

So is there going to be another email sent to VIPs?
I can live with the playfield art changes but not having John Goodman VO would be a dealbreaker.

Have they confirmed playfield artwork changes? The pot leaf is now gone for sure?

#609 4 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

Did you read the article?Up until a certain time frame, publicity items are public domain because of the laws at the tiem.

Yes, I read it. I was trying to clarify one of your statements and after going back and re-reading what you wrote, I think I misinterpreted your point. Anyway, we agree, and this is an example of how murky copyright can be.

#610 4 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

So is there going to be another email sent to VIPs?
I can live with the playfield art changes but not having John Goodman VO would be a dealbreaker.

I think the Goodman thing has been misinterpreted. The issue as I understand it is twofold:

1) They can only use approved Universal PR assets of Goodman, and nothing else. And his contract also limits what his likeness is in context with. Like not next to guns. You definitely won't see Walter holding the pistol. That may be why DP apparently needs to remove the playfield gun (and the weed leaf?) I dunno. But it's not that he can't be in the game.

2) They can use his movie dialogue. That part just hasn't been approved yet. Doesn't mean it won't be.

I could be wrong about those, but based on what I've been led to understand those are the facts. So it's not a "no Walter at all" situation.

#611 4 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

I think it's not as nefarious as that. I don't think that is proof that Phil made a conscious decision to abandon his morals and defraud his customers. I think he has been recounting a long string of incidents where DP went too far and he still reeled them back in while working to release a legit product. His list of infractions is not a tally of everything that is currently wrong with TBL, but instead his evidence of a pattern of negligence that he has been working to to correct but is no longer willing to as he has had enough after they apparently began "lying" to get around his oversight, and just doing what they want, regardless of license restrictions. I think at Expo he was frustrated, but still thought the damage was not so bad that they couldn't still fix it. I haven't yet heard any claims about sales pitches he made at expo that he explicitly knew were not true.
I think the things we know, according to Phil are:
1) They repeatedly made designs contrary to the license restrictions, and were pissing off universal.
2) Most of those issues eventually got resolved, including the backglass, except that they continued to flaunt the restrictions by showing up in Chicago with Kahlua and Time in the game, unapproved playfield art in general, and apparently unapproved voice call-outs. Additional infractions happened at DPO, which was the last straw for Phil.
3) Phil states that all of the voice call-outs are unapproved, but that doesn't mean that some or most of them won't be. It's just another example of showing disregard for the restriction against showing unapproved assets publicly.
4) The play field is unapproved, but insider reports from Barry state that removing things like the gun, the pot leaf, the disembodied legs, kahlua etc will likely get it approved.
5) Phil also said that there was no approval for any advertising at the time that he left. It is unclear if he is saying that none of the advertising he over saw for the previous year was approved, or any advertising going forward, but I found this one to be odd. Especially because he used a Goodman voice call-out specifically in at least one of those stellar videos.
6) Phil states that all the money from BOP 2.0 was gone, and that he covered a significant portion of the overspending costs. It is unclear how much preorder money was spent, and on what.
7) It appears as though the main split happened, again according to Phil, because of Barry and Jaap no longer heeding his advice w/r/t marketing and following the licensing restrictions, and they began lying to him repeatedly.
8.) He wants no liability with a company he feels is taking huge unecessary risks with the license and people's preorder money, and his requests have been ignored. Barry claims he put the burden on Phil to find someone else to take over DP USA. Obviously Phil feels this is Barry's responsibility.
In summary, Phil raises legitimate concerns over whether DP's cavalier attitude towards the license restrictions will risk getting the license pulled. Since he appears to have been the middle man W/R/T the license, it seems even more risky to flaunt the restrictions after his exit. JJP has always been very careful not to show unapproved stuff, so that reads as a real concern. The cab artwork appears to be approved, no one is claiming the music licenses are not valid, but the call outs are in question as well as the playfield art. The only concerns with Goodman are the use of any assets or depictions outside the narrow set of assets they have approval for. This is a big concern with call outs, and his playfield image, but the backglass is done.
It's obvious that DP will have their side of Phil's role in the company and why the split occurred, but in addition to that they need to address his accusations of the money handling(especially for BOP 2.0) and the status of the license issues. Unless they verify that everything they have shown and continue to show in public have been approved, I think buyers will need further assurances that showing unapproved artwork and assets poses no risk to the license. The current state of unapproved assets could be very close to being resolved with minor fixes, similar to what Phil described he worked out in the past, but that will all be moot if they get the license pulled for repeatedly showing unapproved stuff in public while collecting preorder money for it. Also this very big, very public explosion between the principles could motivate universal to find a reason to pull the license as well. Regardless of who you put the blame on for that one, it would be very prudent for DP to make sure they follow extremely closely to the letter of the law going forward.

This is a very good / cooler head summary of my understanding and concerns as someone who is still in, and would want good answers before my final payment, and if no answers are given then (unthinkable on Friday) could conceive wanting a refund at some point.

I am considering composing something to thar effect to Barry/Jaap and I may steal some of this as content (attributed of course).

Now some yard work .. Need to get out into the warm sun I guess it was just too good to be true to avoid the "full" pinball pre order experience.

#612 4 years ago
Quoted from mechslave:

That's the way I read Phil's post with the email from the lady from Universal. No Goodman callouts in the game means a VERY different game than most were anticipating. That's a BIG one.

Here is the way to get around it"

Press Release from DP

Our servers were hacked and all of our information was stolen. Even the full code that we can't use on the production machines because of the licensing issues. You know, full movie quotes and scenes etc.
I certainly hope that code doesn't end up in a torrent for people to download or anything sinister like that.

#613 4 years ago
Quoted from Erik:

I guess I've been way out of it, but until Phil's post I wasn't aware it was being shopped to distributors. I thought DP was the only option. Maybe it's not important to others but that's a big deal to me with what we saw with WOZ distributors jumping pre-orders. Perhaps that's why they refused to give a production number?

I asked that question at expo reveal. I was told that only through DP direct. no distributors

#614 4 years ago

I only read through the first 5 pages but man.......there is just too much drama in pinball right now.

#615 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Although it might be fun to think of Kahlua as being a tiny Mexican company, they are actually owned by the monster Pernod Ricard company that controls the entire world of spirits. Absolute, Beefeater, Chivas Regal, Jameson, Seagrams.....it's all owned by the French.

This! And do not Piss the Frenchs. Ever!
Or...
... we piss on your rug!

Very undude, I know

#616 4 years ago

Call me a skeptic but we only have half of the story....as far as I'm concerned this could have been resolved behind closed doors like gentlemen. However by outing the problems like this Phil may have killed off a promising new pinball company. Yes I get the fact they used stuff in the PROTOTYPE that were not approved...But did they sell any machines with the unlicensed stuff? All of this may have been able to get resolved, The actors' speeches could have always been added later by the owner after delivery too. I feel bad for these guys who put this thing together and now have to see it burned down to the ground.

#617 4 years ago

I think the difficult hurdle is not with Lebowski Universal but rather removing Phil from DP.
Pretty sure he waited till Barry was out of country to launch his refund/attack and as an owner of 1/3 DP USA.

#618 4 years ago

Nice Sunday morning read. All 13 pages. From like 8 am to 1pm.

I think this may be thread of the year material here.

#619 4 years ago

I believe Barry's side of the story is coming out tonight

Stay tuned

#620 4 years ago
Quoted from maddog14:

Nice Sunday morning read. All 13 pages. From like 8 am to 1pm.
I think this may be thread of the year material here.

You read it... mind giving a quick and dirty of what happened??

#621 4 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

I believe Barry's side of the story is coming out tonight
Stay tuned

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#623 4 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

I believe Barry's side of the story is coming out tonight
Stay tuned

There's one part of the story... Hold ur money till they build the game!

#624 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

that Barry had taken the €60,000. Jaap and I realized that we had no choice but to put back the money ourselves. I started buying parts from all over the world on my credit cards. Shipped stuff on my personal fedex account. all to cover his theft.
keep in mind, jaap and i had NOTHING to do with bride. this was a koen / barry project, but we knew, if this thing didn't ship, nobody would by TBL.

Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

I believe Barry's side of the story is coming out tonight
Stay tuned

I hope it explains the alleged €60,000 shrinkage, and the shipping status of the BOP2 kits.

#625 4 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

I believe Barry's side of the story is coming out tonight
Stay tuned

I still have not given up on TBL! But I will be holding my refund until Barry convinces me things are ok.
DP you may only get one shot to fix this so, do not dissapoint us!

18
#626 4 years ago

To address some of the issues raised above:

1. I'm unhireable. Really? Thanks.

2. How much of the Bride money did Barry spend? All of it. I had to buy parts from scratch.

3. The Callouts were not approved. For months I asked Barry to send me an Excel spreadsheet of start/stop timecodes, the clip, and the shot where it would be used so that I could upload it to STRATA. I never got it, so no clips were ever approved. That does not mean they won't be, just that when I left, they were not even submitted for approval. When I got to Expo, I had never even seen a working TBL before.

4. My being in "control" of the money. I have no access to any of the order histories, DP USA doesn't get new payments, in fact I have no clue who the existing customers are. I don't have access to SQUARE (my dp email address was on it, and my social is stuck to it). If I didn't keep the PayPal login (because my Social Security Number is on it), I'd have absolutely nothing -- but I would still be liable for the company. I'm sure the Americans know that it's only because of my good credit that we could get and maintain a 1.7% rate on our charges (yes, really. internet too.). Credit histories matter.

5. Kahlua - I think it would be even funnier to have an image of a kahlua-ish bottle with black duct tape over the label - it's a nice thank you to P-N for saying no.

6. Changes to the playfield - those are the changes I was expecting, which means the status is "conceptual" in STRATA, and not even in the PRE-PRO phase. That means making a prototype is a violation, and given the history there, could put the license in jeopardy. That's why I was always the no-no-no-no guy. I see things from the perspective of all stakeholders. It's not just about the next quick sale. It's about building long-term trust based relationships with all your stakeholders. It's a small industry. Screw up one license deal, you may never get another.

7. My responsibility to find a replacement - Barry's been telling me to wait, he's got an idea, he's taking care of it, etc. for 6 weeks now. Sorry, but I had one of my mini-vacations already, and I have another vacation on Tuesday, and I'm out of it for a while. (I never use the "H" word - my 5 year-old freaks).

8. OK, so it's my responsibility. If that's what he now says, is there anyone here who would like to take over Dutch Pinball USA, Inc? You'll be in charge of the Park Ridge office, skype, the entire paypal balance, and be in charge of all the US sales. Serious inquiries, PM me.

9. You didn't like the flux capacitor thing? OK, how about this one... You're playing. LCD gets wobbly for a split second. What was that? Ring ring. You reach to the side of the cabinet, and out of the box you take out an old fashioned black telephone receiver. Put the phone up to your ear but KEEP PLAYING! You hear, "To escape the Matrix, shoot the left ramp." Skill shot that, Mr. Anderson.

10. Why I'm doing this. Between my Professor job, dad to 2 little girls, supportive husband to a wife working on her PhD, and fighting testicular, lung and thyroid cancers (stage 4, but the first two are NO LONGER DETECTABLE!!! -- just the third one we can't seem to beat) - I really don't have the time or strength to deal with this any longer. I left 6 weeks ago because I do not want to be liable for actions which I believe are not in the best interest of all stakeholders. Yet here we are, mid-December, and I'm still stuck.

And yes, this has really been going on for 6 weeks. I'm sick of it. (Email attached)

Screen Shot 2014-12-14 at 20.00.25.png
24
#627 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Call me a skeptic but we only have half of the story....as far as I'm concerned this could have been resolved behind closed doors like gentlemen. However by outing the problems like this Phil may have killed off a promising new pinball company.

It looks like Phil tried to cut his ties to DP for quite a while before finally refunding the money out of frustration.

Anyone battling cancer sees things in a different light.

I'm sure he does not want to check out and leave his family with some legal mess.

I'm sure he does not want the year to end with it looking like he has millions in income on his books.

I'm sure he does not need the stress of DP's adventures during his cancer treatment.

10
#628 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Call me a skeptic but we only have half of the story....as far as I'm concerned this could have been resolved behind closed doors like gentlemen.

Have you not read the posts by Phil with the emails that he has posted?

He was trying to do exactly what you said...resolve this behind closed doors. It seems pretty obvious to me that he was unable to do so in a timely manner, so he was left with little choice. He even told Barry that he would start issuing refunds if he wasn't taken off the books at DP USA Inc. by a certain date.

-1
#629 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

It looks like Phil tried to cut his ties to DP for quite a while before finally refunding the money out of frustration.
Anyone battling cancer sees things in a different light.
I'm sure he does not want to check out and leave his family with some legal mess.
I'm sure he does not want the year to end with it looking like he has millions in income on his books.
I'm sure he does not need the stress of DP's adventures during his cancer treatment.

Memento mori.

#630 4 years ago

Phil:

Can you just answer me the question of what steps I need to take now to get my money back for now and out of DP USA. If you have the money, but no records of who it belongs to, what do I do? Even if I wanted to stay on board with this project and resend my deposits, I can't because the defunked DP USA still has my money. Any advise or direction is appreciated.

#631 4 years ago

This is all sad news. I hope that everything gets worked out for everyone involved and that TBL does end up getting released at some point next year. But that said, that's just pinball. More importantly, Phil, you strengthen up brothah. Gear up and kick that cancer right in the balls Bro! Good luck.

#632 4 years ago

November 26, 2014: Here's where Barry wants me to use Dutch Pinball USA money to buy 30 Zotac ZBOX-CI320NANO-U Barebone PCs at 130.00 each for a total of $3,900.00 for the US Bride Kits.

I said no.

Screen Shot 2014-12-14 at 20.18.26.png invoice.jpg
#633 4 years ago

So what happens to the people who weren't refunded?

All this sucks because I was excited about this pin. Hope it all pans out.

#634 4 years ago

Wow. This is insane. What a week of drama on Pinside...you leave for 1 hour and all hell breaks loose!

Stern releases a TWD Prem.
Heighway pinball has Alien issues.
Dutch Pinball looks like a ship of fools.

I thought the TWD Prem thread was crazy... I think this one, with a former employee showing emails and divulging behind-the-door company info, takes the cake.

If you're on the fence about jumping on a pre-order, this week has to be a wake-up call.

#635 4 years ago

Phil,
How do we get our deposits refunded from the "Dutch Pinball USA, Inc." PayPal account?

14
#636 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

He was trying to do exactly what you said...resolve this behind closed doors. It seems pretty obvious to me that he was unable to do so in a timely manner, so he was left with little choice. He even told Barry that he would start issuing refunds if he wasn't taken off the books at DP USA Inc. by a certain date.

This is certainly the way it looks.

Looks like they called Phil's bluff and he laid down the royal flush. If the licensing rep sees this thread, it's probably going to be difficult to recover.

#637 4 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

I believe Barry's side of the story is coming out tonight
Stay tuned

Based on all the emails Phil has posted not sure if his "side" matters anymore Seems like a mess overall. GAme development is tough enough, but behind the scenes drama seems like a big wall to get through. Big bummer a cool theme and game is having these issues

#638 4 years ago

Isn't Ahnolds character in Predator named Dutch?

Hmmmm

-1
#639 4 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

I think this one, with a former employee showing emails and divulging behind-the-door company info, takes the cake.

It sure says something about that person...

#640 4 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

Pretty sure he waited till Barry was out of country to launch his refund/attack and as an owner of 1/3 DP USA.

Think you have your dp usa facts off.

Anyone know if/where they are incorporated? Didn't see any hits in Illinois searches

#641 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

November 26, 2014: Here's where Barry wants me to use Dutch Pinball USA money to buy 30 Zotac ZBOX-CI320NANO-U Barebone PCs at 130.00 each for a total of $3,900.00 for the US Bride Kits.
I said no.

Screen Shot 2014-12-14 at 20.18.... 82 KB

invoice.jpg 87 KB

Ok this pissed me off. DP published a picture in October that was supposed to be the US kits ready for shipping to the US office. And now we see an invoice for 30 pcs in late November!?!?!?!

#642 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

It sure says something about that person...

Funny... I thought people loved folks like wiki leaks or snowden. I guess it depends on who they are outting to some people

#643 4 years ago

Still a bit perplexing as on one hand it looks like Phil is all guns blazing to discredit DP and on the other he is looking for someone to take over his spot as DP-USA........as a going concern??

Just hope it all ends with a round of White Russians for everyone!

#644 4 years ago

#645 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

And yes, this has really been going on for 6 weeks. I'm sick of it. (Email attached)

Read the email from the post right after this quote...Phil was ok with DP draining the US funds as long as his name was off of it. Thoughts?

#646 4 years ago

Every time I see a post from Phil I feel a little worse about keeping my preorder.

Concretehardt nailed it - Barry has one shot to air everything out and be transparent about all of it.

BOP US kits and code.
Licensing status including what's locked in and what's subject to change / be cut.
What to expect as far as TBL code goes at launch come April.
His view on what happened with Phil.
How DP are going to incentivize people to stay onboard.

#647 4 years ago
Quoted from RandomGuyOffCL:

Read the email from the post right after this quote...Phil was ok with DP draining the US funds as long as his name was off of it. Thoughts?

He took in the revenue for Bride, not DP USA. But once he owns BOTH companies, it's all the same parent organization.

#648 4 years ago

Screen Shot 2014-12-14 at 11.40.35.png
#649 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

4. My being in "control" of the money. I have no access to any of the order histories, DP USA doesn't get new payments, in fact I have no clue who the existing customers are. I don't have access to SQUARE (my dp email address was on it, and my social is stuck to it). If I didn't keep the PayPal login (because my Social Security Number is on it), I'd have absolutely nothing -- but I would still be liable for the company. I'm sure the Americans know that it's only because of my good credit that we could get and maintain a 1.7% rate on our charges (yes, really. internet too.). Credit histories matter.

Phil, I opened to tickets on PayPal to refund my 2 deposits. They are both "Awaiting other party's response" which I assume is going to your @gmail.com address listed as the Sellers email. Do you have the ability to take action on these PayPal tickets?

#650 4 years ago
Quoted from edmorex:

Phil, I opened to tickets on PayPal to refund my 2 deposits. They are both "Awaiting other party's response" which I assume is going to your @gmail.com address listed as the Sellers email. Do you have the ability to take action on these PayPal tickets?

I already clicked "Did not ship" (which means I do not dispute it).

Actually, I'll click "Did not ship" for every dispute.

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