(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 3,821 posts
  • 422 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Xerico
  • Topic is favorited by 51 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 240 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

did i miss it.gif
image.jpg
2015 LFLA Poster.jpg
J.jpg
image.jpg
Rug.jpg
dude-bathtub.png
IMG_3535.JPG
image.jpg
tumblr_n5b3mkHQ3s1rx3q30o1_500.gif
Alaska-Marijuana.jpg
hell-freezes-over.jpg
image.jpg
Glowing rock pop.jpg
image.jpg
JeffBridges_TBL.jpg

This topic is closed.

There are 3821 posts in this topic. You are on page 12 of 77.
#551 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

So you have experience building pin balls? In that case, I rest my case. In any other case, let me explain what I mean...
"Taking care of legal stuff" has a very wide perspective here. As I stated already: there isn't a single machine produced at this moment, so considering that, there IS NO LEGAL ISSUE YET. When you start making money using someone else's face, music or brand name, you're in trouble.

Very very wrong on both accounts. First selling or not and money changing hands has no relevance on this. It's violations either way.

Two, the issue is the promotion and public display. They do not own the content and can not advertise or promote with content they don't have approval to use. That is the liabilty that Phil was putting Phil over the edge. Being in an agreement for specific uses of content does not give you carte blanche. The fact it's a prototype does not grant you new rights to promote with someone else's ip.

#552 4 years ago

+ 1 to the kahula chip in. And maybe get a price from Goodmans Agent!?

#553 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

+ 1 to the kahula chip in. And maybe get a price from Goodmans Agent!?

Really?! You would want to pay twice for something!!

#554 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I would hope/agree that there is a difference showing a work-in-progress prototype and shipping a completed game with unlicensed assets out to a customer.
Think of any movie being edited with a "temp music mix" where they just use whatever commercial music to put their movie together with while the composer puts something together. That temp mix is not for sale, but people will see it including test screening audiences.
I hope to own a TBL, and hope they pull it together.

48573890.jpg 20 KB

That is simply an example of using alternate licensed content while you work on getting the final content you want. It is not unlicensed content being used freely under the guise of 'temporary'

#555 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

I am quoting this again as people are getting carried away with the Goodman stuff; It says "Additional talent approvals" ... i.e., an expansion of what's already available. This does not mean 0% john goodman or no callouts. "Additional" people..

I mean it's really a matter of interpretation, but the way I read that is that it will be possible for Universal to get the necessary approvals from other cast members (Bridges, Moore, Buscemi, etc.) to sign off on the use of their likenesses and what not (perhaps they still have active contracts with these actors still related to the project) but that Universal is unable/unwilling to secure Goodman's approval... Meaning Goodman would have to be licensed seperately... Universal has rights to the movie and a predetermined set of marketing images, slogans, and what not... They don't have the rights to manipulate TBL anyway they want, because just like any story, movie, etc. the writers, directors, actors and so forth have their own names on it and retain a certain degree of control over how they are represented... But again, the original statement is pretty vague, so it's really a matter of interpretation and who knows what larger context this fragment of a statement was said in?

#556 4 years ago

This is sounding more and more like a big f'ing mess

#557 4 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Enjoying geuine Garrett's popcorn while reading the Dutch Pinball trainwreck thread from my suite overlooking the Chicago River.

1418573233839.jpg 111 KB

Caramel and cheese mix?

#558 4 years ago

Actually that was me responding to Kaneda.I mean, thats what it sounds like :Copyright infringement.
These dudes are Dutch and maybe didn't realize until too late
It seems thats what Phil was referring to when he said "doing it the right way:"
Some of the other buzz words were 'integrity" and "clean".
Someone also mentioned that the songs were available in Europe but maybe not here.

#559 4 years ago
Quoted from vex:

this situation is a real mess. i will not toss my money back in on this pre order drama.
i will ONLY be a future customer for tbl if i am offered the same deal that i was offered at expo with the rug and the chrome package and not paying the price increase.
i have the money set aside for this, otherwise there are many, many other options. i hope you guys take heed and don't fuck yourselves, you need us a hell of a lot more then we need you.

There's always a few people left on board of a train wreck. Someone will get stuck holding the bag...

16
#560 4 years ago

Phil is apparently the only one in the company that gives a shit about the rules
Mark_It_Zero_by_Thirty3Grafix.jpg

#561 4 years ago
Quoted from cogito:

I was just about to post the exact same message. It seems like this thread is one big echo chamber where assumptions magically get turned into hard facts within three posts or less.
Put simply, we currently do not know if all of the Goodman callouts that are currently in the prototype are part of the already approved package. If they are, then nothing will radically alter with regards to those callouts when the machine hits the production stage. The sane thing to do would be to try and keep the "OMG no Goodman in TBL"-assumptions to a minimum, until we hear from DP.
Post edited by cogito: spelling

From the email it sounds the art of goodman was the highlight of that specific concern. But echo'ing what you both said... We don't know what was I their limits or not specifically. Apparently Barry doesn't understand either

The fact they would sink money into producing the prototype without clarity either way is telling about their approach to licensing and respect for its risks IMO

#562 4 years ago
Quoted from ChadH:

This is confusing because Phil also said this:

Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

Those call-outs from the actors? Not approved by universal.

I fully agree it's confusing all right, but what strikes me as strange is that people equate "Those callouts from the actors" immediately to those of John Goodman. After all, the only reason why people seem to think that John Goodman is being a hardass (he probably knows nothing about this whole debacle) is because it was stated that callouts beyond the currently licensed ones would not be possible for John Goodman (or at least, that's how I interpret the email):

Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

Our frustration arose from their lack of understanding that The Big Lebowski assets are restricted to the approved set we have, and that while additional talent approvals are possible for most of the cast, they are just not possible for John Goodman.-------

Perhaps Phil could specificy if he meant in his original statement that NONE of the callouts are currently licensed for use by DP? I find it interesting to note that Phil is seemingly satisfied with starting a lot of panic, but is currently not here trying to make sure people don't interpret his generalized statements incorrectly. If was a friend of DP like Phil claims to be, I would try to make sure my words weren't overstretched by panicked potential buyers.

#563 4 years ago
Quoted from Monster_Bash:

So why can't they hire a voice actors and make their own 'Goodman' call outs? Not like the phrases are trademarked

But they are very much copyrighted material. Simply recreating it doesn't make it public domain.

Same as art, the written word, etc. the script and the performance are both copyright material.

#564 4 years ago
Quoted from TaTa:

Really?! You would want to pay twice for something!!

Quoted from Pinhead1982:

+ 1 to the kahula chip in. And maybe get a price from Goodmans Agent!?

Why not consider using Tia Maria? A competitor of Kahlua, older and original product. Would likely cost very little. And would be better than 'Coffee Liqueur' on the play field.

#565 4 years ago

This is Chicago! Heading to the Dutch Pinball facility soon.

1418574348616.jpg
#566 4 years ago
Quoted from Underspin:

Phil is apparently the only one in the company that gives a shit about the rules

Mark_It_Zero_by_Thirty3Grafix.jp... 30 KB

"Smokey , this isn't Nam, it's pinball, there are rules here."

#567 4 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

I love how your telling people what to do with their hard earned money. Cause that's what your saying. Don't bail out,,, they can't build a game with out us... Assume the risk... Ha

That's not what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that in a time frame of just 24 hours people jump to the most ridiculous conclusions here with just ONE side of the story.

But hey, who am I, right?

#568 4 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

This is Chicago! Heading to the Dutch Pinball facility soon.

1418574348616.jpg 218 KB

Get some prime rib at Lawry's while you're there!

#569 4 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

This is Chicago! Heading to the Dutch Pinball facility soon.

1418574348616.jpg 218 KB

I want to go to that bacon and DP!

#570 4 years ago

I'm new here but have been following this for a while. At this point I think it's best to:

a) collectively sign a petition asking the owners of DP to address the concerns and allow everyone to move onto the joys of this project. Give them a week or till wed to get it together (basically give them some time but make it definitive)

B) get some answer on the USA owners for BoP 2.0. This was the more important issue brought up in the last day. Those are people that should be getting product soon and should have something finished that could prove to people how this project will be down the line.

C) TBL has a lot of issues being dealt with, a lot of what have you's. My point is new shit will come to light. Let's be respectful of both sides. Persoanlly I wouldn't want to be where Phil is right now. At the same time I would be that the guys in Denmark aren't used to dealing with Hollywood and perhaps aren't used to how USA law can be versus their own country. At any rate I'm hoping the game wraps up nicely..

#571 4 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I know Phil is going thru some stuff and probably isn't thinking long-term...but will anybody ever hire him for anything, ever again? I'd guess he's rendered himself unemployable, for Anything, forever.

Why, because he seems to want to follow the law?

#572 4 years ago

I remember posts about Phil being the guy who was pushing people to make the pre-payment at expo. He has now admitted that he knew at that time that the product he was displaying, which was not marked subject to license approval, was not fully licensed. I think it is now too late for him to take the high road and say that he tried to get dp to do things the right way. He tried to get them to do it "the right way" and when they wouldn't, he went along with it and personally sold the product and took pre-order money for it. He and dp were probably both hoping that things would work out and getting in the pre-order money would help things work out, but it still smells like fraud.

#573 4 years ago

I'm probably going to just stay out for now, just to shady for me at this point, refund is in hand, until I hear both sides ill just wait to make an informed decision at that time. It's not looking good at this point though.

#574 4 years ago

what if you did not receive the refund? I put in dispute as they asked but unfortunately it says its past the time or ability for them to do anything about this?

#575 4 years ago

So, Universal has no problem releasing TBL and countless other movies including guns, violence and drugs.

But don't put a gun or a pot leaf on a TBL playfield?

It doesn't sound like this game will be very true to its source material, that basically kills my interest.

#576 4 years ago

Yeah not everyone got refunds, seems like just the recent orders since expo.

#577 4 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

There's always a few people left on board of a train wreck. Someone will get stuck holding the bag...

like what happened with the aussies getting screwed by the distributorship representing jjp on those pre orders?

12
#578 4 years ago
Quoted from eharan:

remove the Weed picture

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

#579 4 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

what if you did not receive the refund? I put in dispute as they asked but unfortunately it says its past the time or ability for them to do anything about this?

if they don't refund you they have destroyed the confidence of all customers and their future...you should be fine.

#580 4 years ago

I seem to remember a bit of this happening with the BoP 2.0 announcement. Things weren't final with the license and they had to pull pre-orders till everything was taken care of.

#581 4 years ago
Quoted from taylor34:

Do you mean they couldn't get ahold of ZZ top or didn't know it was ZZ top singing it? Pretty sure that's who's doing it in the movie.

There are 2 versions of Viva in TBL.

The worst version of Viva Las Vegas in the world:

The other version :

#582 4 years ago

Every company had trouble's with the licences.
Don't forget that this forum would'nt be here without the Dutch!

DP will deliver. I just hope that Phil will be fine, from the looks of his rage it almost seems he is to far gone.

#583 4 years ago
Quoted from boo32:

I think it is now too late for him to take the high road and say that he tried to get dp to do things the right way.

It's never too late to make things right with the world before you check out.

#584 4 years ago
Quoted from stangbat:

There are two issues that are being confused in this discussion.
1) The Wonderful Wizard of Oz story by Frank Baum and original artwork done by WW Denslow are in the public domain and have been since 1956.
2) The movie, which is based on the book, is not in the public domain. The characters used in the lawsuit were based on the posters and characters from the movie. That's the problem. Yes the characters may be in the public domain, but the MOVIE characters are not. So if you are going to create or sell anything Wizard of Oz related and don't want grief from the studio, it had better be based solely on the books and not the movie.

Are you talking about the article I cited and JPOP or about DP and TBL?

Did you read the article?Up until a certain time frame, publicity items are public domain because of the laws at the tiem. So I can take an old WOZ movie poster or Tom and Jerry movie poster and reprint it and sell it without having to license it, but I cannot take a picture from the movie poster and put it on T-shirts and sell it.

Yes, correct, the book characters are public domain, and the movie characters are not. Thus why univeral has the rights to a flat topped frankenstein and MGM the rights to a funnel hatted tin man. Also Ruby slippers were an invention of the movie while in the book they are silver slippers.

#585 4 years ago

Back on Oct 1st the big lebowski official
facebook page linked to polygon article with all the photos (pot leaf and all) . so, anyway maybe its right vs left hand at universal but they know its out there.

#586 4 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Why, because he seems to want to follow the law?

You are kidding, right?

I'm not taking right or wrong. I'm talking reality.

Nobody will ever hire him again. For anything.

#587 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

It's never too late to make things right with the world before you check out.

Vid - didn't think of it in those terms and didn't mean to reference that which is way too heavy for this forum. Agree he seems to be doing what he feels is rigHt and I should have left it there.

#588 4 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

If you are going to kick start something how about community raise the funds 10k to use kahlua. And see what goodman wants. 10k is nothing for such a sweet license.

I feel you, but it shouldn't be on the community to fund a license. Turn the bottle or call it "Lua." It's not a deal breaker. This happens all the time in other forms of media (video games, film, TV, and music). $10K isn't that much, but will it help sell more machines? I can't answer this, but as a manufacturer, you have to look at the ROI on this type of expense. I would love to know the margins on today's pinball machines.

Thankfully, Brunswick gets it. It's free advertising. Let's hope other companies do the same. Perhaps, getting rid of the gun and marijuana leaf will help the situation.

#589 4 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

The $10,000 for the Kahlua seems like not a bad deal considering they paid nothing for the Brunswick rights. Say they have 200 preorders that's just $50.00 a machine.
They can"t afford to do that to keep the authenticity of the machine.

$50 a machine is more than they paid for the movie rights.

Might not make the most sense to pay that much to advertise Kahlua.

#590 4 years ago

I'm in $4500 for TBL from Oct 2. No refund, and no plans to ask for one.

After reading everything here, I don't understand what the big deal is really? DP have stated we can get refunds up until our machines are built. So if the final version is not what you expect or like, then get a 100% refund and be out.

And if something shady goes on at DP and they don't have the funds to refund the money, then that's when you call your credit card company and tell them that you paid $x for something that was never delivered, and they refund you the money.

No drama either way.

#591 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

$50 a machine is more than they paid for the movie rights.
Might not make the most sense to pay that much to advertise Kahlua.

One would think Kahlua would of looked at this as free advertising.... They want to sell their shit right?
What a great target audience (pinheads) I think in protest when and if I ever get a TBL I will be using a generic version of Kahlua to make my White Russians.

#592 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

It's never too late to make things right with the world before you check out.

Nomen est omen.

#593 4 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

One would think Kahlua would of looked at this as free advertising.... They want to sell their shit right?
What a great target audience (pinheads) I think in protest when and if I ever get a TBL I will be using a generic version of Kahlua.

I agree with the earlier post: would go to Kahlua's competitor and ask them if they wanted free advertising.

#594 4 years ago
Quoted from BrianMadden:

s on at DP and they don't have the funds to refund the money, then that's when you call your credit card company and tell them that you paid $x for something that was never delivered, and they refund you the money.
No drama either way.

unless you paid by check

#595 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

And I won't give them my idea for putting a real speedometer on the center shot (two sensors), so not only does your shot have to be perfectly straight, but it also has to be (scaled speed) faster than 88 miles an hour to light the flux capacitor.

BTW: that one is sooooo old. Vector anyone?

Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

I won't even tell Gary or Jack my idea of using a machine as a jukebox. Plugging in a USB with music, and using the flippers to forward and reverse, having the machine light up to the beat.

I think Gary could come up with that idea in his sleep, after making Metallica...

#596 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

If you can really afford to lose that money, how does it make sense to stay in for the relatively minor cost benefits of doing so?

To help the boat stay afloat... if we all pull out from fear, the chances of the boat sinking will increase, no? If we all bail out, then we don't get TBL... I still have a lot of this saga to read, so sorry if this has been mentioned before... Of course I want my money back if the game's not getting made, but more so I want this project to succeed... pulling out won't help the latter...

#597 4 years ago
Quoted from davewtf:

Double Penetration USA refund? WAT?

That's what I think when I see that - glad I'm not the only one.

#598 4 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

You are kidding, right?
I'm not taking right or wrong. I'm talking reality.
Nobody will ever hire him again. For anything.

Oh don't be ridiculous. He has a job, do you think they're going to fire him because of some pinball drama on the internet?

Everyone needs some perspective. The game isn't dead. DP has worked very hard to get the licenses for everything. The problem is the work isn't done. I think anyone with money down deserves some honest answers about the status of the licensing. If it's not 100% yet, hey, not the end of the world. But maybe it's not the best time to be bringing the game to New York and showing it off. I wouldn't worry about lawsuits, more pissing off the licensor and suddenly the theme is dead, and the game with it.

The money and US company thing is a mess. Again, why go to New York if you haven't taken care of basic business? I'm sure it's fun to bring the game out for a parade, but sometimes you gotta handle other things first. I'm sure Barry and Jaap have their version of the story too, and we'll hear it. But Phil left, he still had control over things, and he begged them to take it away. That seems like job #1. Even if you're not on Phil's side, isn't it crazy to leave a dude who bailed on you in control of the money?

I really hope they can settle things down, and the game proceeds. Even if it's super disappointing that the pot leaf is being removed, that really crushes me. Waters down the awesome counterculture feel of the playfield, real pity.

I won't lie though, I'm glad I don't have any money in on this. I don't blame anyone for being nervous about that right now. It kind of blows my mind that Jaap and Barry are still silent, but they've demonstrated time and time again that communication with their customers isn't their strong point.

I want to see this game made! But it's just pinball, and it's not worth risking people's money over, so do it right or don't do it at all.

#599 4 years ago
Quoted from boo32:

I remember posts about Phil being the guy who was pushing people to make the pre-payment at expo. He has now admitted that he knew at that time that the product he was displaying, which was not marked subject to license approval, was not fully licensed. I think it is now too late for him to take the high road and say that he tried to get dp to do things the right way. He tried to get them to do it "the right way" and when they wouldn't, he went along with it and personally sold the product and took pre-order money for it. He and dp were probably both hoping that things would work out and getting in the pre-order money would help things work out, but it still smells like fraud.

I think it's not as nefarious as that. I don't think that is proof that Phil made a conscious decision to abandon his morals and defraud his customers. I think he has been recounting a long string of incidents where DP went too far and he still reeled them back in while working to release a legit product. His list of infractions is not a tally of everything that is currently wrong with TBL, but instead his evidence of a pattern of negligence that he has been working to to correct but is no longer willing to as he has had enough after they apparently began "lying" to get around his oversight, and just doing what they want, regardless of license restrictions. I think at Expo he was frustrated, but still thought the damage was not so bad that they couldn't still fix it. I haven't yet heard any claims about sales pitches he made at expo that he explicitly knew were not true.

I think the things we know, according to Phil are:

1) They repeatedly made designs contrary to the license restrictions, and were pissing off universal.
2) Most of those issues eventually got resolved, including the backglass, except that they continued to flaunt the restrictions by showing up in Chicago with Kahlua and Time in the game, unapproved playfield art in general, and apparently unapproved voice call-outs. Additional infractions happened at DPO, which was the last straw for Phil.
3) Phil states that all of the voice call-outs are unapproved, but that doesn't mean that some or most of them won't be. It's just another example of showing disregard for the restriction against showing unapproved assets publicly.
4) The play field is unapproved, but insider reports from Barry state that removing things like the gun, the pot leaf, the disembodied legs, kahlua etc will likely get it approved.
5) Phil also said that there was no approval for any advertising at the time that he left. It is unclear if he is saying that none of the advertising he over saw for the previous year was approved, or any advertising going forward, but I found this one to be odd. Especially because he used a Goodman voice call-out specifically in at least one of those stellar videos.
6) Phil states that all the money from BOP 2.0 was gone, and that he covered a significant portion of the overspending costs. It is unclear how much preorder money was spent, and on what.
7) It appears as though the main split happened, again according to Phil, because of Barry and Jaap no longer heeding his advice w/r/t marketing and following the licensing restrictions, and they began lying to him repeatedly.
8.) He wants no liability with a company he feels is taking huge unecessary risks with the license and people's preorder money, and his requests have been ignored. Barry claims he put the burden on Phil to find someone else to take over DP USA. Obviously Phil feels this is Barry's responsibility.

In summary, Phil raises legitimate concerns over whether DP's cavalier attitude towards the license restrictions will risk getting the license pulled. Since he appears to have been the middle man W/R/T the license, it seems even more risky to flaunt the restrictions after his exit. JJP has always been very careful not to show unapproved stuff, so that reads as a real concern. The cab artwork appears to be approved, no one is claiming the music licenses are not valid, but the call outs are in question as well as the playfield art. The only concerns with Goodman are the use of any assets or depictions outside the narrow set of assets they have approval for. This is a big concern with call outs, and his playfield image, but the backglass is done.

It's obvious that DP will have their side of Phil's role in the company and why the split occurred, but in addition to that they need to address his accusations of the money handling(especially for BOP 2.0) and the status of the license issues. Unless they verify that everything they have shown and continue to show in public have been approved, I think buyers will need further assurances that showing unapproved artwork and assets poses no risk to the license. The current state of unapproved assets could be very close to being resolved with minor fixes, similar to what Phil described he worked out in the past, but that will all be moot if they get the license pulled for repeatedly showing unapproved stuff in public while collecting preorder money for it. Also this very big, very public explosion between the principles could motivate universal to find a reason to pull the license as well. Regardless of who you put the blame on for that one, it would be very prudent for DP to make sure they follow extremely closely to the letter of the law going forward.

#600 4 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

One would think Kahlua would of looked at this as free advertising.... They want to sell their shit right?

Although it might be fun to think of Kahlua as being a tiny Mexican company, they are actually owned by the monster Pernod Ricard company that controls the entire world of spirits. Absolute, Beefeater, Chivas Regal, Jameson, Seagrams.....it's all owned by the French.

For the tiny amount of advertisement resulting from 500 pinball machines produced, it would probably be more of a nuisance than any additional sales.

-

Brunswick, on the other hand, is a much smaller company that still builds "Family Entertainment Centers" that have arcades in them.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 21.00
From: $ 40.00
Cabinet - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
$ 10.00
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
Gweem's Mods
$ 399.95
Lighting - Led
Pin Stadium Pinball LEDs
$ 279.95
Lighting - Led
Pin Stadium Pinball LEDs
$ 50.00
€ 3.70
From: $ 18.00
Apparel - Men
Pinside Shop
$ 10.50
Playfield - Protection
The MOD Couple
$ 76.95
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
$ 5.00
Playfield - Decals
Metal-Mods
$ 5.00
$ 7,499.00
Pinball Machine
Gulf Coast Pinball, LLC
$ 15.00
Electronics
Third Coast Pinball
From: $ 24.00
$ 5,799.00
Pinball Machine
Little Shop Of Games
There are 3821 posts in this topic. You are on page 12 of 77.

This topic is closed.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside