(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

5 years ago



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There are 3821 posts in this topic. You are on page 10 of 77.
#451 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

The robot was reused several times on camera

The robot was in Lost In Space tv show 1965 to 1968. Though I believe he wasn't referred to as Robbie in it.

LTG : )™

#452 5 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Sounds cool, what price and would it work on acdc?

Not currently.. We designed it for jjp games or pic based... Doesn't mean we can't do stern. Just not ready too

#453 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Holy shit, he did not actually say that. Please tell me that's not a direct quote.
First of all, Robbie the Robot isn't from a "trailer". He's originally from the full length film Forbidden Planet, which was released in 1956. There is no "if it was in the trailer it's public domain" rule.
(The robot was reused several times on camera, some people here probably think of Twilight Zone first even I bet.)
So that's the trailer part.
The second part is films do not enter the public domain right now unless they were made before 1923. 1956 > 1923
So that part is wrong too.
I just checked the license on my Mondo Forbidden Planet print. Rights belong to Turner Entertainment Co., so they're the ones who would handle any licensing.

Found a story on the lawsuit. You can sell/reproduce the public domain items. I.e. movie posters, lobby cards, trailers. You cannot take the images/characters from the public domain items and reuse them elsewhere as the characters are copyrighted.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/warner-bros-wins-key-legal-208255

#454 5 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Check out what happened in Austrilia with Bumper in 2013. Any time you have neither your money or your item you are exposed. The ability to get a refund is limited by the solvency of the entity that is holding your money...an entity that may have big over head like salaries...

"Hello, Discover Card? I was charged $8500 for an item I never received. Oh, there's no time limit on disputing a transaction? Awesome. Please proceed in investigating and pursuing this chargeback."

DONE. Yes, I agree that it's a risk/grey area, but PayPal would be on the hook as the "acquirer," who in turn would go after DP.

#455 5 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

Not currently.. We designed it for jjp games or pic based... Doesn't mean we can't do stern. Just not ready too

Well if I stay in on the hobbit I may be interested in one.

#456 5 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Well if I stay in on the hobbit I may be interested in one.

How many people skipped out on hobbit at expo before the changes and went to tbl... Nowhere many will go back because of the changes and this dibocal. Few months for hobbit cause of changes... And two weeks left to order smaug...

#457 5 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Well if I stay in on the hobbit I may be interested in one.

Ya there's a video of me using the pin tooth on my Facebook pages
Pinnovators on Facebook. If u want to see it work.
Thanks,
Lorenzo

#458 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Holy shit, he did not actually say that. Please tell me that's not a direct quote.
First of all, Robbie the Robot isn't from a "trailer". He's originally from the full length film Forbidden Planet, which was released in 1956. There is no "if it was in the trailer it's public domain" rule.
(The robot was reused several times on camera, some people here probably think of Twilight Zone first even I bet.)
So that's the trailer part.
The second part is films do not enter the public domain right now unless they were made before 1923. 1956 > 1923
So that part is wrong too.
I just checked the license on my Mondo Forbidden Planet print. Rights belong to Turner Entertainment Co., so they're the ones who would handle any licensing.
It's not like I needed another reason to doubt that Jpop has any clue WTF he's actually doing, but that's sure a huge one. Does that mean those cabinets he brought to Expo weren't a colossal waste of time exercise in concept art, but actually a stunningly miscalculated final design?

You know there's a huge difference between teaser copyright law and trailer copyright law, right?

#459 5 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

"Hello, Discover Card? I was charged $8500 for an item I never received. Oh, there's no time limit on disputing a transaction? Awesome. Please proceed in investigating and pursuing this chargeback."
DONE. Yes, I agree that it's a risk/grey area, but PayPal would be on the hook as the "acquirer," who in turn would go after DP.

I certainly concede the point that you can challenge through your method of payment (credit card, paypal, etc.)...but some people still pay by check (those poor souls) and there are limits to what even your credit card company can (will) do when dealing with a fully insolvent small entity.

#460 5 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Neither are practically applicable to smaller entities like boutique pinball manufacturers...especially ones owned and managed by foriegnors.

I'm definitely not arguing your points TigerLaw, but this is exactly why I put my refunded deposit on a card that has zero interest until March 2016. I should be safe as long as I don't pay off the balance and carry the deposit funds until shipment, which DP is shooting for this April (fingers crossed).

Don't pay with bank funds!

-1
#461 5 years ago

All I can say is wow. Maybe it's my fault. I move to Kirkwood MO and there are two major, national news stories. Mayor and council gunned down and guy gets caught holding captive and molesting a boy for several years after a failed attempt to get another. Then you have Ferguson.

Four months ago I join Pinside and there has been constant drama. I watch the live streams of the Chicago show and love what I saw with TBL. This news really takes the cake.

I really hope this pin gets built and people get them without losing money because this has a lot of promise, and I'd love to have a go on one.

#462 5 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

Who do I contact? Because (as Barry's letter stated), a dispute with Paypal is not possible.

as an aside.. calling paypal and working through their CS system can do things the website does not allow. I've seen this with ebay and other scams where the website blocks, but once customer service knows what's going on, they have more power.

#463 5 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

And two weeks left to order smaug...

i'm done with pre orders,just wait for a code complete game, 6 -12 months from now and buy one of the many huo that will be clogging the marketplace and save large.

-2
#464 5 years ago

image-760.jpgimage-95.jpg

#465 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Holy shit, he did not actually say that. Please tell me that's not a direct quote.
First of all, Robbie the Robot isn't from a "trailer". He's originally from the full length film Forbidden Planet, which was released in 1956. There is no "if it was in the trailer it's public domain" rule.

He said exactly that, which means we will be revisiting this same issue that DP is going through now over on the Jpop thread in a few weeks. I hope more companies learn from these mistakes.

#466 5 years ago
Quoted from vex:

i'm done with pre orders,just wait for a code complete game, 6 -12 months from now and buy one of the many huo that will be clogging the marketplace and save large.

This^^^^^

#467 5 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

You cannot take the images/characters from the public domain items and reuse them elsewhere as the characters are copyrighted.

Bingo.

#468 5 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

Ya there's a video of me using the pin tooth on my Facebook pages
Pinnovators on Facebook. If u want to see it work.
Thanks,
Lorenzo

Ill check it out, thanks. Im still in on hobbit right now se #7?

#469 5 years ago

The pre-order model has always been flawed. People just really need to wait for a final product to be available. I learned my lesson

#470 5 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

The robot was in Lost In Space tv show 1965 to 1968. Though I believe he wasn't referred to as Robbie in it.
LTG : )™

That's a different design/robot.

#471 5 years ago

But, the pre -order model is for these small companies to even think about doing a small run of machines. It's your choice, either you risk it and it works out, or you wait for the next Stern or JJP machine and be happy about it.

#472 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Holy shit, he did not actually say that. Please tell me that's not a direct quote.
First of all, Robbie the Robot isn't from a "trailer". He's originally from the full length film Forbidden Planet, which was released in 1956. There is no "if it was in the trailer it's public domain" rule.
(The robot was reused several times on camera, some people here probably think of Twilight Zone first even I bet.) So that's the trailer part. The second part is films do not enter the public domain right now unless they were made before 1923. 1956 > 1923 So that part is wrong too. I just checked the license on my Mondo Forbidden Planet print. Rights belong to Turner Entertainment Co., so they're the ones who would handle any licensing. It's not like I needed another reason to doubt that Jpop has any clue WTF he's actually doing, but that's sure a huge one. Does that mean those cabinets he brought to Expo weren't a colossal waste of time exercise in concept art, but actually a stunningly miscalculated final design?

Quoted from LTG:

The robot was in Lost In Space tv show 1965 to 1968. Though I believe he wasn't referred to as Robbie in it.
LTG : )™

Quoted from roffels:

That's a different design/robot.

OT: Again a "stylized sci-fi robot" not Robbie.

Disclaimer I'm a concrete guy not a copyright attorney.

#473 5 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

But, the pre -order model is for these small companies to even think about doing a small run of machines.

No, the pre-order model is for the customer to assume all the risk while the company assumes none. We're basically full of pinball kickstarters.

#474 5 years ago
Quoted from taylor34:

No, the pre-order model is for the customer to assume all the risk while the company assumes none. We're basically full of pinball kickstarters.

Yes, and why, because the boutiques don't have the cash to do it on their own. Thus, either you do it, or you don't and don't get those types of machines. It is that easy.

#475 5 years ago

I get the biggest kick out of the people that immediately resubmit their refunds. Talk about Stockholm Syndrome. Do those of you that did this actually think that is going to help you get a game?

17
#476 5 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Yes, and why, because the boutiques don't have the cash to do it on their own. Thus, either you do it, or you don't and don't get those types of machines. It is that easy.

And that's why Spooky succeeds while all the others fail...because he is sticking his own neck out and risking his own money to do this while everyone else is using the somebody else's money to get started. You're a lot more motivated when it's your money on the line rather than someone else's usually.

#477 5 years ago

Here is a problem I have with Phil.
At Expo he apparently knew about all these so called problems yet was talking up TBL and lets be honest here, talked an awful lot of people including myself to get in on a preorder and becoming a VIP
member.Remember what you said at Expo. Rug and Chrome if you order by October 19th. Nothing was said at Expo or when Phil left the company. Nothing was said until today not just anyday this was the NYC VIP Launch. Very interesting and selfish in my opinion.
We are not children here we are grown men. You can't tell me this type of thing can"t be discussed and settled upon privately. By Phil putting it all out there may Jeopardize further dealings with Universal to get this licensing thing sorted out (if indeed it is a real problem) Would like to hear Barry and Jaap respond to Phil's accusations.
I will be staying in for now. I have 180 days now that I refreshed Paypal and reinstated my order.
I want to hear both sides of the story before I make a rash decision.

#478 5 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

So what now??? How do I get my refund?? Who do I contact? Because (as Barry's letter stated), a dispute with Paypal is not possible.

Assuming you paid Paypal with a credit card, bypass Paypal and file a dispute directly with your credit card company.

Most credit card companies give you 6 months to dispute.

#479 5 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Yes, and why, because the boutiques don't have the cash to do it on their own. Thus, either you do it, or you don't and don't get those types of machines. It is that easy.

So far the only prepay games we've ever received is BBB and WOZ. Everything else on the pre pay model have yet to materialize. (Granted, MMr and TH are both immanent to release).

14
#480 5 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Yes, and why, because the boutiques don't have the cash to do it on their own. Thus, either you do it, or you don't and don't get those types of machines. It is that easy.

Nonsense. You finance making the final prototype, complete with code, yourself. That's on you. If you can't handle that then let's be honest, you have no business running a business.

You can take money from people when you're ready to go to production. "Pay now, you'll get your game in 3 months" would be totally acceptable.

Can't do that? Don't decide to be a pinball manufacturer.

#481 5 years ago

#482 5 years ago
Quoted from taylor34:

No, the pre-order model is for the customer to assume all the risk while the company assumes none. We're basically full of pinball kickstarters.

Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Yes, and why, because the boutiques don't have the cash to do it on their own.

So what's Stern's excuse?

#483 5 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

How many people skipped out on hobbit at expo before the changes and went to tbl... Nowhere many will go back because of the changes and this dibocal.

What would be really mind blowing was if Gary Stern orchestrated the entire thing to sabotage TH. Like, he actually had an elaborate TBL machine developed solely to kill the pre-order model with no intention of building the game. Hey, with what I've seen today, anything's possible!

#484 5 years ago

This does bring about a little extra respect for companies like JJP and Stern who have to put up with this kind of crap from the license holders and still manage to put out great games. POTC without any lines from the movie or the real actors is still better than no POTC pin at all. The Hobbit pin without Smaug interacting with the ball is still better than no Hobbit pinball at all.

10
#485 5 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

Here is a problem I have with Phil.
At Expo he apparently knew about all these so called problems yet was talking up TBL and lets be honest here, talked an awful lot of people including myself to get in on a preorder and becoming a VIP
member.Remember what you said at Expo. Rug and Chrome if you order by October 19th. Nothing was said at Expo or when Phil left the company. Nothing was said until today not just anyday this was the NYC VIP Launch. Very interesting and selfish in my opinion.

I'm confused... you paint him in the wrong for playing the company line... and not being a whistleblower on the topic.

Then paint him in the wrong for being the whistleblower now.

What should he have done in your opinion, when by his account the team show up with a game with decisions made that he was not aware of until that point in time?

The guy didn't have the power to stop the other DP folks from doing what they were doing. He couldn't make the games disappear or forbid the other DP guys from doing their thing.

Quoted from Nilroc:

We are not children here we are grown men. You can't tell me this type of thing can"t be discussed and settled upon privately

By his story he did his part in voicing those concerns to the other DP folks and tried to resolve it. But in his view, he was being dragged around and put at risk by others. He was jettisoning the baggage the only way he could. Obviously he knew this would bring the whole situation to light... but it sounds like some spark was needed.

#486 5 years ago
Quoted from taylor34:

And that's why Spooky succeeds while all the others fail...because he is sticking his own neck out and risking his own money to do this while everyone else is using the somebody else's money to get started. You're a lot more motivated when it's your money on the line rather than someone else's usually.

Multimorphic is not funding development with customer pre-order money either. Gerry has been pretty great about that.

#487 5 years ago
Quoted from roffels:

That's a different design/robot.

Actually Robbie did appear in Lost in Space. Not the main Robot called Robot but in 2 episodes, a guest star

http://lostinspace.wikia.com/wiki/Robby_the_Robot

#488 5 years ago
Quoted from Betelgeuse:

What would be really mind blowing was if M Night Shyamalan orchestrated the entire thing to sabotage TH. Like, he actually had an elaborate TBL machine developed solely to kill the pre-order model with no intention of building the game. Hey, with what I've seen today, anything's possible!

FTFY

#489 5 years ago

The spelling throughout this thread is absolutely atrocious.

Dibocal?!

#490 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I'm confused... you paint him in the wrong for playing the company line... and not being a whistleblower on the topic.

Then paint him in the wrong for being the whistleblower now.

What should he have done in your opinion, when by his account the team show up with a game with decisions made that he was not aware of until that point in time?

The guy didn't have the power to stop the other DP folks from doing what they were doing. He couldn't make the games disappear or forbid the other DP guys from doing their thing.

Thank you. I always tried to fight for what I thought was right, for my partners and my customers. That's why I didn't want them abusing the licensing. That's why I didn't want those "show specials" at DPO. That's why I didn't want special "one-off" meetings with distributors.

There is only one right way to do business, and that is the RIGHT way.

Screen Shot 2014-12-14 at 08.12.06.png
#491 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

The guy didn't have the power to stop the other DP folks from doing what they were doing. He couldn't make the games disappear or forbid the other DP guys from doing their thing.

And back in August.

Screen Shot 2014-12-14 at 08.02.46.png
#492 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

And back in August.

But in September.

Screen Shot 2014-12-14 at 08.18.49.png
-2
#493 5 years ago

#494 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

But in September.

And yet in Chicago in October, when I saw TBL for the very first time, there was Kahlua.

I tried to get Barry to cover it with tape, but he said it would hurt the flow.

All I could do was address it head on -- and put tape over every bottle of Kahlua.

(Turn the threat into an opportunity.)

At the time, if I did not believe in Dutch Pinball, I would not have sold a single machine.

EVEN TODAY, I STILL THINK DP CAN MAKE A VERY GOOD MACHINE. I would not say it, if I did not believe it. They just have to play by all legal and ethical rules. Until they do, I do not want my name associated with it.

#495 5 years ago

Is it a bad sign that I heard from one of the reporters at the event that the DP guys were staying in the back room most of the night. I think Scott was on the floor, Damn I wish I could have been there. I know 2 people there, one says all is well, the other says run away, take the refund and go. I am still in, but really need to hear from the DP guys.

-4
#496 5 years ago

well for all the hassle, I think they should just reoffer TBL to everyone for 6k. Even those that didn't preorder yet. that would satisfy everyone, even those that lost out big because of the exchange rate (same thing happened to those that invested with Wayne). Where do I send my down payment?

#497 5 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

So what's Stern's excuse?

You don't have to prepay to own a Stern machine. They make them and sell them footing the entire bill.

#498 5 years ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

Is it a bad sign that I heard from one of the reporters at the event that the DP guys were staying in the back room most of the night. I think Scott was on the floor, Damn I wish I could have been there. I know 2 people there, one says all is well, the other says run away, take the refund and go. I am still in, but really need to hear from the DP guys.

That's nonsense Barry was on the floor playing games, chatting with folks, or drinking next door.

Dudes kind of hard to miss being 7 feet tall.

#499 5 years ago

</blockquote

Quoted from Aurich:

Nonsense. You finance making the final prototype, complete with code, yourself. That's on you. If you can't handle that then let's be honest, you have no business running a business.
You can take money from people when you're ready to go to production. "Pay now, you'll get your game in 3 months" would be totally acceptable.
Can't do that? Don't decide to be a pinball manufacturer.

I'm AGAINST what they're doing btw. That's what they all do, pretty much, and still doesn't work most of the time. Because when you have no skin in the game you have no motivating to succeed.

#500 5 years ago

This whole situation is very undude.

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