I don't have an iron in this fire, but these DP guys have seemingly have gone through extraordinary efforts to get their prototype games to the US...and have really cranked the in-person PR to fairly high levels. They also are obviously paying decent coin for a licensing expert.

All of that doesn't jive with some of these other issues that have popped-up.

Just based on Bride 2.0., My guess is that the game ships as promised (possibly late) and that owners will be happy. For those of you willing to give them your cash upfront, more power to you. As everyone has pointed out, some of these road bumps are head scratching to say the least. My fingers are crossed that it all works out.

I am NOT saying that they can't do this... what I am saying is, again, although I have no idea why I feel the need to repeat myself, is that there may be things behind the scenes that are making them tread carefully, that are making them refrain from saying anything... that we're not aware of... I'm not saying that they are legally bound to not speak... You CAN see what I'm saying, can't you? Did I say they can't say anything??

Not exact, more people that stay in the better chance DP has of making it. Come on and show your support for the company and buy a tbl that may otherwise be canceled. Seems like you would be supporting the company and increasing your chances of getting your game. Seems like that should be reward enough. If not why not offer a real bet to people? State a date by which the game gets done, how many, who receives them, etc. By simply stating that the game will get made is not a bet. Technically it has been made already, there are atleast three out there.

If you guys are going to bet, then you have to be more specific. You need to have an end date. Why not use the date from the FAQ on the DP website? It says "The first games will be shipped in Q2 2015." Use that for the date then. Maybe also come up with a number of games shipped by that time... like 25 or 50?

Then on July 1, 2015, you will both know the result of the bet.

(For the record, I think TBL will ship. Just have no idea when.)

Pinballslave what kind of "stuff happening behind the scenes we aren't party to" are you even talking about? Your argument is basically "I have no information but there MIGHT be information so I'm right and you all are wrong". I'm just wondering what type of goings-on would mandate the truly deafening (and at this point six weeks later, rather comical) silence in your mind. This silent treatment is good because __________." Seriously I'm just trying to figure out what the heck you're even talking about.

My bet is against people who state that TBL will not get made, period... clearly these people are not talking about prototypes... so I'm not also...

I also believe the shipping date will slip, and I don't care about that...

Mr Sack declares that TBL will not get made, I am simply offering him to back up that belief... I believe it will get made... It's simple... No timescale was mentioned in his statement, and I'm happy with that... but I'm happy to put a time limit on it of 2 years, and at least 20 games produced by that time on top of the prototypes... there, some clarity... although I'm not sure why you're interested in a bet with someone else...

The fragile kind.

Where did I say I was right and others are wrong...?

I figured you wouldn't have a very solid answer

Made or not, there are real issues at hand.
Many here who asked for refunds hsve not received them or any communication from the Dutch boys.
Still some here who did not ask for a refund got one and a shirt. Still no communication from the Dutch boys.
The check is in the mail.

Better than yours

Sounds like Steve is basically saying that DP will not implode, or walk off with people's money like Bernie Madoff and he's willing to bet that.

I agree with Steve, whoever he is...

And this is exactly what SadSack is saying WILL happen... which is who I've offered to bet against... and I hope he takes me up on it!

Lol sorry I thought it said Steve (just reread it now) (that steves a wise guy)

Steve is kinda bad as supplying support for his arguments though. I just don't see how "there might be stuff we don't know about" trumps "we have been waiting for nearly two months and they will not return our deposits". It's hypothetical versus on-paper fact.

Dear miss playfield, clearly lots of people have been waiting months for deposits to be refunded, and I am not making any claim to say that that isn't true... or that it's not bad or concerning... it's the 'why' that no-one knows about... there are no facts about why at all... or why DP are silent... I am merely speculating, as everyone else is, that the reasons 'why' don't all necessarily point to doom and gloom and DP being a dead fish, a rotting goose or de-railed train... they may simply be being silent for other reasons... Fragile reasons... ones that don't involve lawyers...

So, where did I say I was right and others wrong?

I dunno, but it sounds like the perfect bet to me. He gets his deposit back on a product he doesn't believe will get made but can't get designer / manufacturer / distributor to honor their commitment by refunding his money. You are absolutely certain of this product and that it will be made and are willing to bet $5k. Pay him $5k and you will get your value back after receiving your game. This is really a win / win for you both and another / win for all the followers of this bet.

Personally $500 is the most I'd be willing to gamble for his $5k position. Until I understood how the finances would work or know that the funds are secure and all paid-in-games will get made first.

btw- this is exactly what everyone THINKS .......right before it happens to them

True, I remember when the financial crisis was happening and a lot of people were using the term "too big to fail" and yet many did. but at this point it doesn't really matter, without DP actually responding or sending refunds these folks are on the boat for the ride at this point

Like what? "Fragile reasons" lol...what on earth. What kind of fragile reasons do you mean?

I think it's really quite simple. Jaap is busy at the factory and doesn't want to get involved. Barry is probably a nice guy, and good at what he does, but he's obviously a bit of a flake. Neither are apparently communication masters.

The guy who was good at talking to people quit, and they really haven't a clue what to do beyond trying to strong arm him into staying. That failed, so they went "oh well" and just gave up.

I don't understand what's so hard about talking to people myself. If you want to be a hermit in your factory, then fine. Don't take anyone's money until you're selling them something then. You can't have it both ways.

Any damage to DP is self inflicted at this point. I can not think of a worse way for them to handle the Phil debacle, just as I can't think of a worse way to handle this guy's visit. It does not take months to put a statement together. I just don't understand, people keep inferring that there are some kind of "secret forces" at play causing a delay in response. "Fragile reasons". It's mystifying to me.

I'd still love to see this pin happen.

The kind that DP don't want to discuss at the moment that could cause problems... If all you want to believe is the doom and gloom scenarios, then go ahead, no-ones stopping you... So what's your suggested reason why DP are not communicating or issuing refunds at the moment? And whatever they are, don't forget the support you criticise me (or Steve) for not having for my vague input.

So you're saying I give someone $5k, and I get a place in line... if the game gets made I get... my money back... if it doesn't, I lose $5k... how is this win-win? I'm offering a bet of $5k that the game get's made against anyone who says it's won't, it's very simple... paying someone off who's got a place in line is NOT the same or a perfect bet... in this case I take all the risk, but get no reward (OK, apart from getting the VIP trimmings... at the VIP price). Remind me not to bet with you

You may find you need some sort of evidence in order to be allowed to suggest this with out facing a kind of jury on this thread... On 2nd thoughts, it's makes DP look bad, so no-one will challenge you

_{Post edited by pinballslave: Realisation that negativity towards DP requires no evidence.}

We know Barry is a bit of a flake that can be seen by his behavior and by that guys recent trip to holland for a tour, we know communication is not their strong suit by how things are being handled. The rest is based on Phil's account and emails he showed.

I think at this point it's just clear that they arent that good at communication, they seem more like they are waiting for only good news to make any update. some people are just wired that way. That doesn't make it a reason though, just a poor business decision

The difference is that you are willing to bet and $5k is the amount. Others do not want to bet, they BOUGHT something, prepaid for it actually, and before it was designed and delivered, they changed their mind and are requesting their money back. So I agree from a betting standpoint it doesn't make sense to take the deal. But from a point of personal pride or as someone who has stated an undying belief in TBL product and process to get there, you are being sought as someone who might put their money where their mouth is. If you are certain that the game will be made then it really isn't a fair bet for your opponent. But why not put your money down and show there is no reason to be afraid of the current risks? After the game is made, and if you decide not to open the box, I am sure you won't have any problem selling it for more than you bought it. I am interpreting this as an example of speculating - as you sounded like someone willing to take a chance and to have some fun. I am probably way off base, but that's how I interpreted things.

The difference between what???

I'm not certain... SadSack seemed more certain it wouldn't get made, so from the certainty/fairness standpoint, he seems to have the upper edge here!

My 'opponent' in this case is not you, neither inhomearcades, who seems to be trying to get my proposed bet with Sad Sack as a way to get me to bail him out, but it's with Sad Sack himself who clearly said that the game WON'T get made... He says it won't be made, I say it will... I'm simply saying that I believe it will, and I'm prepared to bet on it... it's between me and him! Why should this be an excuse for anyone who wants a refund to get me to bail them out with my own cash??? I don't KNOW it will be made, just like SadSack doesn't know it won't... But I am prepared to bet on this fact with him... It's me who's proposing this bet... and it's his statement that I'm willing to bet against!! What it's got to do with you or inhomearcades is beyond me!

Does this apply to the person I'm actually challenging, or is it a general rant?

Please quote me where I have said this... I am simply saying I believe TBL will get made, I made no claims about the process of getting there at all... did I?? (maybe I'm losing my mind here... a quote would help refresh it)

I will never understand how people think challenging others to vague bets to defend their favorite company's honor is a good idea. Seriously, the last thing SkitB needed was whysnow making swinging-nutsack bets that they would ship in 2014. The last thing DP needs in the middle of this PR nightmare is Pinballslave taking the most-obvious-troll-bait-of-all-time by challenging sadsack to a ridiculous bet and then continuing to call non-bet-takers chicken for pages of posts.

By all means, cheerlead away. But no one is helping anyone by proposing dumbass, meaningless, unenforceable, vague bets between anonymous internet avatars.

-a real Steve.

Hear, hear.

understand completely. but the longer they take to at least say something, potentially more buyers
will drop out... not good, i know...

Then again has anyone really dropped out? I would say until their money is back their sort of stuck in this mess. But yeah the current non communication as weeks go by isn't boding well. At least a few weeks back you heard a lot more people doubling down on their order. And I haven't heard anyone pop in and say "screw this I'm buying one now, I have faith"

I think the only thing that's keeping people relaxed is seeing the bop crowd get their stuff and hearing they got Roger Sharpe

My point is I believe that day is closer than you think.

yup... plenty of people already have "bet" ~$8K on this pin shipping.... no need to double-down....

I'm guessing this is against me again... Just a stab in the dark For the record, I'm not offering this bet to defend my favorite companies honor, another false speculation about my incentives, I'm doing it because I want to get some money off my TBL Mr Sack is adamant that TBL won't get made, so I'm offering him a way to back his claim up with a bet, and so he can profit from it if he truly believes it... What the hell this has to do with anyone else is really beyond me... anyway, carry on...

Can you see anywhere where I said this... if you're going to say that someone said something, why not copy that text instead of making stuff up??? Where do you get these ideas from?? It's really quite baffling...

Look, SadSack made a bold statement, I challenged him on it, people who have been commenting on this I have not called chicken or made any bets with... OK, so he's a troll... I get it... don't feed the troll... sorry everyone, please forgive me... I bow my head in shame...

Let me just put in my 2 cents.

Dutch Pinball will be fine. All of this panic was started by a disgruntled employee who showed his lack of professionalism at Expo when he spent a significant portion of the presentation bagging on his competition, and insulting some of the people who took the time to ask a thoughtful question. I was one of the guys who got a laugh out of the team at the presentation, but I still felt bad for the guy who just wanted to know how easy it would be to service the game (sort of an important issue), and was told that he was boring everybody with his stupid question. Rubbed me the wrong way.

Yes, like many things in this industry, BoP 2.0 was late. But I have it. And it is awesome. The whole package is impressive. It's actually MORE than what I signed on for (the ColorDMD was a nice surprise). It shows you that DP can deliver. I remember the same panic when JJP was late with WoZ (mine took 3 years of "next month, we promise" to ship), or when Gene Cunningham was 2 years late with BBB.

With TBL, these guys have created a really great prototype, which I played several times. The layout is great, and with a few tweaks, it will shoot really well. I have no doubts that they will be able to produce and support a finished product that I will be proud to own. Will I get mine in April? No. Might even have to wait until 2016. But we'll get them. And they will be great.

I believe your statement is fairly accurate. DP made a huge mistake by saying they can offer a refund at any time. To make a statement like that and not back it up, they had to expect reactions such as the ones they are receiving.

Also the way they responded to your question is completely obnoxious. It's likely the first question I would ask given the chance. From everything i have heard and seen at some of the events these guys just treat them as a reason to drink and have a good time, when they should be there in a professional capacity. Nothing wrong with after hours fun, but drunken presentations and response to important questions such as yours is not how they should conduct themselves.

News??

I was there for the seminar and the VIP gathering afterward. ""They"" did not do this. Phil did. It was shortly after this that he was given the boot by the DP partners. To which Phil then retaliated like a scorned teenager in very unprofessional and public way.

I just found this thread and have only read the first and last pages. Forgive me but I'd rather not read through all of the usual muck.

With the passage of time and this testimony I am reevaluating the past support I've show to DP. I would like to see Roger Sharpe travel to DP's facility and publicly report back.

Lastly, I'd like to thank the OP, Hjbondar for a thoughtfully written and I believe credible report.

Okay, that would make more sense. My take away from the post was that it was common place.

Wow, you really need to reread the missing pages if this is what you think happened (not talking about the seminar just to be clear, I wasn't there).

DP is (was) three people, with Phil being one of the three, not an employee, but an owner. He wasn't given the boot, he tried to quit due to serious illness (Cancer) and they did not want to deal with him leaving as he had a large equity stake in the company and/or other reasons.

I never said he was an employee and I acknowledge he is/was a partner. Its my understanding his partners asked him to step away from operations after his embarrassing display at the Chicago seminar.

This is Phil's version of events. And judging by his overall actions I have a very difficult time believing anything Phil has to say.

Any problems Phil had should have been handled privately and through his attorney.

That's not quite right

Phil was/is a 1/3 owner of Dutch Pinball USA, which is the US base for taking money and shipping US games. The game is being produced by Dutch Pinball BV which Phil owns 0% of.

The problem is Dutch Pinball USA has a paypal account with a shit ton of money that only Phil had/has access to. I don't know what's changed since December but my guess is since customers have NOT been refunded yet that, that account with a shit ton of money in it is not in control of Dutch Pinball DV.
I don't know if Phil is holding on to that account as long as he can to pay back DP for getting the boot or if the account is on hold during a transfer of ownership (could take months) or if Barry and Jaap already have the money.

What I do believe is that Barry is passionate about making the game and I believe he will get it done and the end result will be awesome.

Enough of the #%+$@= blame game! Make a plan and move forward...it's been months!

Damn it. I read that Aurich was gay but had a wife whose nips are on AC/DC. I kept scrolling for pics but they never happened!

Remembering too Paypal is likely involved as they have a reputation for freezing accounts if there's the slightest whiff of something going sideways. There's no way all the requests for refunds and fraud reports that happened during the first few hours did not go unnoticed.. Probably why the refunds stopped cause everyone was locked out until they got some answers. So add that with however long the government takes to process forms for ownership transfer.. This all at least sounds plausibile and is not the 'doom and gloom' scenario.

But will admit, silence is getting old for those wanting out I'm sure.

Dude, you're heading for a whole heap of shit here suggesting something that doesn't point at DP being incompetent ass-holes without anything to back up your claim

Besides, according to some people, who seem to be far better informed that the likes of you or I, it's just a click of a button to sort that stuff out

.

The snarkiness is strong with this one

Actually I'm just gonna drain this one, without any info the back and forth here is just completely pointless.

bert.gif

Getting good mileage out of this gif...