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(Topic ID: 267655)

Double bonus last bal big indian gottlieb


By Lambecka

4 months ago



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  • 22 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by Lambecka
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#1 4 months ago

Need some help for the following, failure in my gottlieb big indian, when playing the last ball in a game the red light goes on for double bonus. Also on the controlbank the L relais is pulling and contacts ok, but when loosing the ball no double bonus is given, only the normal bonus is given.
Can somebody help me out??

#2 4 months ago

I don't have the schematics but you might check the score motor switches. The two 1000 pulses for the double bonus are likely scored by two different motor switches, so check any which are normally open with motor at rest, and which only pulse once per motor cycle.

#3 4 months ago

These are the score motor switches. Also check XB, the last ball relay.

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#4 4 months ago

When the LB/Double Bonus relay trips the bonus count circuit driving the L/1000 point relay changes slightly:
Big Indian Double Bonus (resized).jpg
I'd start by checking the two switches in the red box.

/Mark

#5 4 months ago

Thanks guys for these possibilities, checked everything as per your suggestions,but it must be something else . As soon as loosing thenball the bonus unit counts down very quick as it would be double , but singel points a given.
After point are given, the bonus unit does not stop direct , but the cointdown coil keeps running a while, before it stops aldo its on zero and zero switch is closed and ok
??

#6 4 months ago

What about this circuit, esp. the M/B on LB?

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#7 4 months ago

Checked this circuit, but did,t help. Problem still remain

#8 4 months ago

What about this M/B and the two score motor sw? It leads into the PU then XB/LB.

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#9 4 months ago

It sounds like your double bonus is subtracting too fast. It should slow down to count a double bonus. If you're sure the circuit in reply #6 is working properly have a look at the switch in the red box:
Big Indian Double Bonus 2 (resized).jpg
If that switch doesn't open the bonus will always subtract at full speed and not slow down for the double bonus.

#10 4 months ago

Mark, you right it goes always on fullspeed. Tried a lot of thing, first did all the checking of the mentioned switches including the motorswitches, but no succes.
Let me try to explain what i did to make the bonus unit slowdown.
As soon starting a game the bonus unit goes full speed when loosing the bal, including when last bal is played.
Open up playfield and in gameover modus, by hand place some bonus point on the unit, and operate manual the Q relais (bonus score relais), The LB relais is retracted, because its end of the game. Bonusunit starts to countdown on slow speed, but only gives single point.
????

#11 4 months ago

If your Bonus Unit takes 5 steps at a time between pauses on the double bonus you need to figure out why. Here is the circuit again.
Big Indian Double Bonus 3 (resized).jpg
There are three different paths that can drive the Bonus Unit subtract solenoid. They all start with the Score Motor 1A switch on the right which generates 5 pulses per 1/3 turn of the Score Motor as shown in the Motor Sequence Chart. Only one of the three paths should be used at any given time.

The bottom path used only during reset goes through the SB2 switch and allows all 5 pulses to reach the subtract solenoid.

The middle path through the normally closed part of the make/break switch on the LB relay and a switch on the Q relay is used when a single bonus should be awarded. It also allows all 5 pulses from the 1A switch to reach the subtract solenoid.

The top path goes through the normally open part of the make/break switch on the LB relay and a switch on the Q relay and is used when a double bonus should be awarded. The Motor 2C and 3C switches allow only the 2nd and 5th pulses from the 1A switch to reach the subtract solenoid. The other three pulses are blocked.

The theory is that somehow all 5 pulses are getting to the subtract solenoid from the 1A switch when the double bonus is being counted and only the top path should be used. If that's the case the pulses are likely getting through one or the lower two paths. Either the SB2 or LB switches aren't opening correctly, or their solder tabs or wires are touching or there is some other kind of electrical path through them. It's also possible that the 2C or 3C switch is stuck closed or shorted which would allow all the pulses through. You'll have to inspect things carefully and experiment by blocking some switches to see if you can figure out how the extra pulses are getting through.

#12 4 months ago

Ok understand but how is that related to the 1000 point relais for dubbel bonus? What energizes the L relais for standard bonus en for double bonus?

#13 4 months ago

Nothing in the game happens faster than the 5 pulses per 1/3 Score Motor turn generated by the 1A or 4A motor switches (apart from maybe a playfield spinner).

The scoring circuit is shown above in reply #4. During a regular bonus count the Bonus Unit steps down at 5 steps per 1/3 turn and the L/1000 point relay keeps up by adding 5000 points per 1/3 motor turn through the upper path in the circuit in reply #4. The effect is 1000 points per Bonus Unit step.

During a double bonus there's no way for the L/1000 point relay to add 10,000 points per 1/3 motor turn so instead the counting has to slow down. The Bonus unit takes 2 steps per 1/3 turn instead of 5 and the L/1000 point relay fires 4 times instead of 5 effectively giving 2000 points for each Bonus Unit step.

In the circuit in reply #4 during the double bonus the Make/Break switch on the LB relay adds the normally closed motor 3C switch to the circuit. That switch allows the first 4 pulses from the 1A switch to get to the L/1000 point relay, but opens to block the last pulse from the 1A switch.

#14 4 months ago

Thanks very clear explanation.
Will start again investigate the given path and will report back the outcome when finished.
Albert

#15 4 months ago

If you haven't found the problem yet, try taking the ball out while on final ball (double bonus lit), rack up some bonus manually by pressing targets. Then shut the game off and back on again and put the ball in the outhole. Test is similar to the Game Over test you did where it did count slow, but without pressing any relays. Does it count down slow, or fast? May help diagnose the issue when compared to your test.

#16 4 months ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

If you haven't found the problem yet, try taking the ball out while on final ball (double bonus lit), rack up some bonus manually by pressing targets. Then shut the game off and back on again and put the ball in the outhole. Test is similar to the Game Over test you did where it did count slow, but without pressing any relays. Does it count down slow, or fast? May help diagnose the issue when compared to your test.

Did that test and it count down slow

#17 4 months ago

Question, what is the name/function of the SB relay?

#18 4 months ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

Question, what is the name/function of the SB relay?

SB1 is the Reset Control relay. SB2 is switches.

#19 4 months ago

Trying to figure out why it would slow count on last ball when bonus relay is activated when it's already at game over, but fast if it isn't. Would status of any other relays change at game over other than the game over relay? Seems like 2C or 3C being stuck closed or shorted is eliminated since he *can* get slow counts using the Game Over trick. And if SB2 was stuck/shorted, same thing, wouldn't slow count with that trick. LB switch really is stuck closed, or LB relay just isn't pulling in? But if that was it I can't see LB doing what it's supposed to only during the game over thing.

#20 4 months ago

Bingo!!
Problem found, sometimes very difficult to find problem.Concentrated whole sundayafternoon on the circuits with the 2 and 5 pulses and eleminated the path thru the SB2 switch, making sure that one was open and no pulses came thru.
So left over the two path for the 2 and 5 pulses ging through the LB rel. . Disassembled complete relais, cleaned and checked all solders. One of the solders looked ok, by jumping it with extra wire , (see picture) problem was solved. Renewed complete wire and machine runs as it need to be.
Thanks guys for pointing me in the right direction and the patience hou had with me.
Greath,

Atience

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#21 4 months ago

Good! So which switch in the relay was it? One that is open when relay is in reset position and closed when tripped, or vice versa?

#22 4 months ago

See close up phote , its the Orange red wire,

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