Doozie - Making X doesn't always advance Bonus (Advance Unit)

(Topic ID: 238162)

Doozie - Making X doesn't always advance Bonus (Advance Unit)


By NovaPin

8 days ago



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  • 7 posts
  • 2 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 days ago by MarkG
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There have been 16 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

white wire (resized).jpg
Odd (resized).jpg
Circut (resized).jpg
Cam 3 (resized).jpg
300 Relay (resized).jpg
Doozie 300 point relay (resized).jpg
20190311_133713 (resized).jpg
score motor sequence 3 (resized).jpg
Doozie 300 relay (resized).jpg
2a (resized).jpg
impulse b (resized).jpg
advance unit (resized).jpg
100 point relay (resized).jpg
score motor (resized).jpg
5relays (resized).jpg
image-3 (resized).jpg

#1 8 days ago

I'm almost done restoring my 1968 Williams Doozie, but one problem still persists. Usually, when completing the X on the playfield, the game will advance the bonus (the 1 to 8 inserts shown in the pic below), score 300 points and advance the Advance Unit to change certain playfield bonuses and increase the 1-8 bonus insert (the 1 gets lit, then the 2 on the following X, etc etc).

image-3 (resized).jpg

My game only sometimes does this. More often than not, when the 5 targets get hit and reset, I only get 100 points and the Advance Unit does not activate. So to "work the problem" I'll go over the process of what happens when an X is complete to see if anyone can help me zero in on a solution. You can get the schematics here (https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=704&picno=14506) but I'll also paste sections below. I also may be wrong in my reading of the schematics, so please let me know!

So it all starts when the 5 targets are hit, each on tripping a corresponding relay. Once all are hit, the 300 Relay is activated. This always works.

5relays (resized).jpg

Now the 5 Target Relay Bank always resets too, however, embarrassingly I can't find that on the schematics...

So now the 300 Relay is supposed to do 2 things, advance the Advance Unit and score 300 points...

But first it activates the score motor, it begins to turn.

score motor (resized).jpg

The 300 relay and impulse B on the score motor activate the 100 point relay for 300 points, which I don't understand. How does it pulse the 100 relay 3 times when there are 5 teeth on it! Not 3! There are five l̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶... teeth!

100 point relay (resized).jpg

impulse b (resized).jpg

The 2A wheel on the score motor and 300 relay with a closed trough relay active the Advance Unit

advance unit (resized).jpg

2a (resized).jpg

And bada bing bada boom, the score motor finishes its rotation (half round since it's a Williams I believe), the 300 relay is no longer energized because the 5 target relays have been reset, and it's all ready for another X to be made.

Now I've come into this hobby blind with no electrical experience at all, so I fall upon the mercy of the forum for guidance and wisdom!

#2 8 days ago

Also, another clue which I forgot to mention, Doozie also has a trough gate, which allows you to get the ball back to the shooter. The ball triggers a roll over in the trough which, I believe, is supposed to score 300 points. This also does not happen every time.

#3 7 days ago

First off, congratulations and well done with what you've diagnosed and documented so far. 'A' for effort, especially since you're new to the hobby.

Quoted from NovaPin:

Now the 5 Target Relay Bank always resets too, however, embarrassingly I can't find that on the schematics...

The Bank Reset solenoid is hiding at the top of the schematic, in the 120VAC section above the transformer. So take notice and beware that there is 120 VAC running through a Score Motor switch and a couple of relay switches.

Quoted from NovaPin:

The 300 relay and impulse B on the score motor activate the 100 point relay for 300 points, which I don't understand. How does it pulse the 100 relay 3 times when there are 5 teeth on it! Not 3! There are five l̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶... teeth!

Excellent question. The short answer is that the 300 relay doesn't stay active for all 5 pulses, it drops out after the 3rd pulse.
Doozie 300 relay (resized).jpg
At the very bottom of this schematic is a normally open switch on the 300 relay. This is the Lock In or Holding circuit for the 300 relay. Once some other event fires the 300 relay with a pulse, the 300 relay locks on by holding itself on through this circuit. In this case, the 300 relay holds until a normally closed switch on the 3rd Score Motor cam opens to let it relax.
It's hard to tell from the schematic when exactly the 3rd cam switches activate in relation to the Impulse cam, but this might help:
score motor sequence 3 (resized).jpg
This timing chart shows that the pulse from the 3rd cam happens just after the 3rd (of 5) pulses from the Impulse cam. So the 300 relay holds itself on while the first three Impulse cam pulses get to the 100 point relay, then relaxes before the last two pulses can get to the 100 point relay.

Bally and Gottlieb often had Score Motor timing charts on their schematics while Williams more often had their Score Motor Cam diagrams which are helpful too, but in a different way.

As to why you don't always get the 300 points and Advance, maybe you can clarify. You said that the 300 pt relay always fires when it should, but elsewhere you say that sometimes you only get 100 points. So do you get 100 points when the 300 point relay fires, or does the 300 point relay not fire when you just get 100 points?

Either way the good news is that since it sometimes works, chances are good that it's a dirty or maladjusted switch, or that there's a mechanical issue (maybe in the Advance Unit) that keeps it from advancing reliably even when it's getting a pulse to advance.

/Mark

#4 7 days ago

markg Thank you so much for the reply! So to clarify, the 300 relay will activate every time, however it will score 100 points when it doesn't score 300 points.

I took a look at it today, and I manually activated the 300 relay. When I just click the leaf switch it sometimes completes the 300 points and advance unit. HOWEVER! When I press down on the leaf switch for more than a moment, it completes everything. Again and again, as long as you hold the switch for a second and a half, it completes.

This bastard

So the issue is that the 300 relay is sporadically not holding to be able to fully complete the cycle. Maybe the plate needs to be cleaned or re-magnetized or something. Thoughts?

#5 7 days ago

I don't know what you mean by "click the leaf switch", but if you push in on the plastic frame that holds the switch leaves as shown here:
Doozie 300 point relay (resized).jpg
the relay should start the score motor and hold itself on until 300 points have scored. If it's not doing that reliably, check the switches in the lock in circuit shown in reply #3, specifically the 300 point relay switch and the score motor switch on cam 3. Those both need to stay closed to hold the relay on for longer than the impulse that fires it initially.

The problem isn't in the relay itself, but in the switches that control it.

#6 5 days ago

@markg Oh yeah, I meant the plastic thing.

So I checked the 300 relay and it checks out

300 Relay (resized).jpg

I checked the drum unit cam 3, and it checked out

Cam 3 (resized).jpg

I even tested the connection between the transformer to the cam to the relay switch, and I got a nice clear beep from my voltmeter. Maybe it's something beyond that?

Circut (resized).jpg

I'm wondering if it's the relay bank. As seen below, does the white-b wire might head to the target relay bank then back again to the 300 relay?

Odd (resized).jpg

You can see in the 300 relay pic the red wire (on the schematics is the main trunk that eventually leads to the transformer) and the white wire with black tracer heading out from the relay itself and also a white wire with black tracer leading out from the leaf switch. They both look kinda yellow due to age.

white wire (resized).jpg

Thank you for the help!

#7 5 days ago
Quoted from NovaPin:

So I checked the 300 relay and it checks out
I checked the drum unit cam 3, and it checked out
I even tested the connection between the transformer to the cam to the relay switch, and I got a nice clear beep from my voltmeter.

The beep only means that the meter can see a path between the probes, not necessarily the path you want to test. It could be a path through other switches, coils or even the transformer. If you're going to test a switch in circuit with a meter, you need to measure its resistance when opened and closed. When opened you'll probably measure something over 10 ohms. When closed you should see something like an ohm or less. Meters often beep for anything less than 20 ohms so you can't tell whether it's opened or closed just by the beep.

Until the 300 relay can hold itself in there's a problem somewhere with the two switches. Try jumpering around the two switches with a test lead. The relay should stay on. Then try jumpering around the 300 relay switch to see if it works better. Then try jumpering instead around the score motor switch to see if that changes anything.

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