Doozie - coil burns, gets 23v before start?

Hi all, could do with some help on a Doozie I thought I'd finished repairing

Doozie has a Trip coil that opens the zipper flippers. I replaced the burnt one as part of my repairs - figured whatever caused that I would have fixed by generally cleaning and checking every switch, etc.

So, played machine several times, all good. Switched off at the extension lead I use for a couple of machines (that do not have on/off switches). Switched extension lead back on to play another machine. Doozie actually has power but not lit up as have not pressed left flipper.

Week or so later I go to play Doozie. Nothing. 15a fuse blown. Replace and blows. Put in my circuit breaker, reset the large relay bank (includes start relay), power on, good, put in new 15a fuse, all good.

Notice zipper flippers close but do not re-open. Notice trip relay is toast. Power off, tools out, remove coil.IMG_4670 (resized).JPG

here's the part of the schematic I focused on showing this Trip relay
Capture (resized).JPG
Put volt meter across the two feeding trip coil.

Readings starting from complete power off:

1. On/off Toggle switch ON (Start Relay energizes) = 22.8V
2. Press Left Flipper (Lock relay on, GI on) = 21.5V
3. Press Credit button (machine resets correctly) = 10.9V (so zipper flippers seemed ok as this was not enough volts to pull in)
4. Press Open Target (would energize trip) = 27V

So, 4 is correct, but obviously the others are not. Coil would have been getting 22.8V for a week while machine was switched on (even though no lights as had not pressed left flipper)

So, going back to schematic, I checked with DMM set to Continuity between the Blue/BR wire at coil ("x") and the other side of all the switches that I marked with red lines. Found the EOS switch (in yellow) was closed at rest. Set gap, thought that was it. No, no change (which makes sense as at step 1 above, Game Over switch would be open anyway).

So, there is no continuity between the Coil Blue/BR and the other side of the 6 switches, but its getting "some" voltage somehow??

One other thing. I checked resistance between the same ("X" and red lines) and there's a reading of around 30M ohms? That more than just holding the DMM leads in my hands but is it enough to let that voltage flow, and therefore there's some "leakage" somwhere.

As you can all see, I'm now way out of my depth with the whole electronics bit - would love some ideas / advice!

#2 6 years ago

AST

astyy

Pinside member

Basingstoke

9y 52,050 472 4

On my Flipper Zipper game I had the opposite - they'd open but wouldn't close - fixed now I'm happy to say.

If that Relay coil is burning out so quickly perhaps its locking on when it should only momentarily activate to trip the flipper open mech. If so you're chasing scenarios that would cause it to lock on.

Hopefully the experts will be along soon to help - good luck

#3 6 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi 4Max
yes, these old pins without an toggle-switch for 110VAC have the "problem": The Lock-Relay only controls 6VAC-Power to the lights. On the 24VAC-Power-Side there is always (when plugged-in) POWER ready to flow (when there is an connection on the other side to Transformer-Common-Lug-Yellow).

In my JPG we see: Flipper-Unit-TRIP-Coil has always connection to Transformer-Power-Side. I have drawn short orange vertical lines --- wiring to many switches.
Maybe You did not notice "my long orange wiring" --- the Score-Motor does not run so SCM-IND-C is closed. IF (if, if) the Trough-Relay (also) pulls: Switch on pulling Trough-Relay is closed and there is connection so the Flipper-Unit-TRIP-Coil pulls constantly.
IF (if, if) the Trough-Relay does not pull - but its switch is faulty always closed: Faulty-closed Switch on non-pulling Trough-Relay is closed and there is connection so the Flipper-Unit-TRIP-Coil pulls constantly. So also look at the Trough-Relay and its switch. Greetings Rolf

0Doozie-Work-03 (resized).jpg

#4 6 years ago

DAN

4Max

Pinside+ Frequent

Hi Rolf! Glad you are here.

I double checked the Trough relay it is open. I checked continuity from X wire on my picture above to Red/Blackand the switch is definitely open. Here the photo as well. Middle switch at rear.
IMG_4673 (resized).JPG

There must be a "short" somewhere but I cannot see it! (The machine has a toggle switch then left flipper turns on GI / Lock relay) but I'm getting 22.8 V just on Toggle On before Left Flipper / Lock relay.

Any other thoughts Rolf or others?

#5 6 years ago

CJM

EM-PINMAN

Pinside member

11y 111K 5,311

Looks like at least 2 of your wires on the relay in the picture are touching. Make sure the ends of the leafs are separated from the others. The one looks like big solder blobs on the short stack.

#6 6 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi 4Max
The "Flipper-Unit-Trip-Coil" has burnt in Your pin --- You replaced it. Question: Can You play --- as You were used to play ?

I wonder if You have an fault in Your pin --- or if You do some research work*** and are surprised from / by the results (?).

Unplug the pin. Look at the Game-Over-Relay - it does not pull. Plug-in the main power cord - the Game-Over-Relay*** must pull-in and stay pulling --- does it ? (read the end of the post).
I am not sure*** - I believe the "Flipper-Unit-Trip-Coil" should not pull --- does it pull or does it not pull ?
You then start a game - the Game-Over-Relay quits pulling - does it ? What is the "Flipper-Unit-Trip-Coil" doing ?
You then play --- can You play a fully functioning game ?

I am not sure***: By now I do not understand the "Left and Right Target Switches opens (in the schematics)" - the schematics shows some rare "Make and MAKE" Switches. Can You locate these Switches and write about how they operate ?

When You are doing research work***: We do some theory --- electrics and "logic in the pin".

Game-Over-Relay*** I am surprised --- in the schematics I only see the Game-Over-Relay having ONE Coil --- in Your pin ?
In the schematics I see that the Lock-Relay "not yet pulling" makes the Game-Over-Relay pull-in --- BUT there is an "Switch on Game-Over-Relay on the Power-Side-Connection" --- the switch opens when the Game-Over-Relay starts pulling so the Game-Over-Relay looses Power - let go - switch closes --- Game-Over-Relay pulls-in again - etc. etc. etc. --- I must admit: I do not understand the wiring of Game-Over-Relay. Please write about Your Game-Over-Relay: One Coil or two Coils ? How does the Game-Over-Relay behave in different conditions ? Plugging-in / pressing left Flipperbutton / starting a game / the game ends ( I have some problems with this relay). Greetings Rolf

#7 6 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi 4Max
again: The Game-Over-Relay. To Doozie the ipdb has the schematics - but no manual. ipdb says "Daffie" is the Add-A-Ball-Version of this pin. ipdb has to Daffie the manual but no schematics.
The Daffie-Manual clearly shows the Game-Over-Relay as an Interlock-Type relay - having TWO coils --- I wonder if there is an fault in the drawing of the schematics of Doozie (missing coil) ? Or does Your Game-Over-Relay sits in a Relay-BANK ? Greetings Rolf

#8 6 years ago

DAN

4Max

Pinside+ Frequent

first, thanks for the replies.

EM-PINMAN I believe thats just camera angle, all the switches test ok with a meter.

rolf_martin_062

1. Have not replaced coil yet, awaiting delivery. But I suspect yes, I will be able to play because I could before it burnt out. I think that is becuase once the game resets and you are playing the coil "only" gets 10.9V (see my first post) which is probably not enough to pull it in. And when the Open target gets hit, it gets the correct 27V (see 1st post again).

2. Yes, there is a fault because the coil is getting 22.8V all the time when the machine is on (toggle switch on) but no lights (have not pressed left flipper) - after an extended time the coil fries.

OK, game over relay:

It is just one relay (part of a long bank of relays).

Here's the sequence from complete power off:

1. No voltage at coil (obviously) and game over relay is not pulled in
2. On/off toggle switch ON = Game Over Relay pulls in and stays pulled in. Voltage at coil: 22.4 (AC) !!
3. Press Left Flipper = Lock relay pulls in, lights com on, Voltage at Coil: 21V !!
4. Press Credit Button = Game resets correctly, including resets bank including Start Relay. Voltage at Coil: 10V !!

(!! = I'm sure all the above the voltage should be 0)

Hit the "Open" target, Voltage at coil = 27V. This is the only correct reading (as this is when indeed the coil should get voltage).

As I said in post 1, I find it weird that if I measure resistance between Blue/Brown "X" connection on the coil, to the other side of any of the switches (yellow) involved I get 30M ohms (Surely it should be 0)- and that 30M does indeed drop to 0 if I press either the left open target switch, right open target switch of the Flipper EOS switch??? I maybe chasing shadows with this resistance stuff??

#9 6 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi 4Max
thanks for writing about the Game-Over-Relay sitting in a Relay-Bank --- I now understand the wiring.
Your description in post-8, 2. On/off toggle switch on --- AND THE COIL FAULTY GETS CURRENT ALL THE TIME. See my JPG - the red question mark --- as the Game-Over-Relay actuates: THIS switch MUST open so the connection is cut - so the Game-Over-Relay looses connection on the Power-Side and therefore can no longer pull --- do You see it (in Your pin) PULLING - or do You measure and write about "readings" ?

The last sentence in Your post-8 encourages me to shift focus to "relays pulling or not pulling / lamps lighted or not lighted". Let me do some "loud thinking" --- I have a mobile phone. It runs on a battery. From time to time I must load the battery. I have a "charging equipment" I can plug-in on a House-Outlet of 110 VAC - In the 110-cord is NO switch. I have a cable to connect my mobile phone to the charging station - in this cable there is NO switch. I plug-in the 110VAC cord but do not hook-up the mobile phone. Does current flow ? I believe: No - as there is no consumer with an closed circuitry --- but the Voltage is there - ready to let current flow when I hook-up a consumer. What happens when I squeeze-in the probes of a meter into "where I can plug-in my mobile phone" ? Do I read Volts, Amperes, Ohms ?
Do You see the analogy to "Your situation / pin" ?

I hope "You have detected the fault, post-1: Found the EOS-Switch (in yellow) was closed at rest" --- and then (O.K. maybe the Game-Over-Relay switch is really an fault (?) ) --- You took an meter and started chasing shadows ...

I am not good in using a meter and so I do not like them --- I use Jumper-Wires to force connection, I use "sneaked-in into switches": Stripes of paper to hinder connection and I use Test-Lights to let the pin tell me when a relay pulls - so I can play the pin and have an eye on my Test-Light.

SteveFury shows his Test-Light made of two 12-Volt-Car-Lights: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics#post-2634425 --- for another topic I made a JPG about the wiring (see it here) --- mount the bulbs "O.K.". To the right at "any coil": Thats the way I often use the Test-Light - hooked to an coil. When the coil gets current: My Test-Light lights-up.
As You happen to NOT have the coil "Flipper Unit Trip Coil": Hook-in the Test-Light in that place - it is now a substitute for the coil. Then do testing with "plug-in --- toggle-on --- starting a game --- playing" and watch and write about "what is the substituting Testlight do". Greetings Rolf

0Doozie-Work-04 (resized).jpg

0Shangri-La-Work-10 (resized).jpg

#10 6 years ago

DAN

4Max

Pinside+ Frequent