I would have to agree that any time you take a drive out to buy that you are taking on a risk that the deal is possibly going to go sour for any number of reasons.
However, It's plain rude to not sell the game at all when the buyer already arrived. Ever hear of a phone? Communicate, common courtesy. "I changed my mind, I apologize, please don't waste your time".

Life is very simple...be open and honest. When I sell a pin I am very open and honest about condition. Provide whatever photo/videos the buyers wants, and negotiate the deal before he or she arrives. The only time I ever took a little off is when an anal buyer found a small nick that I didn't even see. I have never and will never renegotiate the price of the pin. Several have tried, and the answer is always no...I have zero issues with them walking away....although nobody ever has....

Everytime I've gone to buy a game I've already agreed on the price and what I usually tell the seller is if the condition matches the description/photos they've provided i'll be taking it. Basically unless you've hidden something about the game it's a done deal. If i then drove out to someone's place and they changed their mind i'd be annoyed, but if I had said I wanted to inspect it and might buy it but not agreed on anything then it's annoying driving there but the seller isn't that bad for changing his mind because up until that point you hadn't agreed to buy it yet especially if you were trying to knock the price down.

I had a similar but opposite situation; Guy came to my home, looked game over, we agreed to price and loaded up his new TAXI!

Next day he called all choked up, voice crackling and almost sounded like he was crying; "My wife says get this game out! WTF are you thinking spending $1500 on a pinball.........." He said; is there anyway I would refund him his money and make it go away?

I said sure, no problem. This is such a cool hobby, no need to get upset and have family climbing all over you. I returned his money and sold the game for $100 less, a week later. Lifes to short. Hopefully he can get back in someday.

This is another example why a buyer or seller should use professional sales invoices with annotated terms.

Simple buyer's remorse regardless of circumstance.
It does not matter if, "My dog died and I need the money for the funeral."
Another tasteless tactic of less honest buyers at times.
Leads to additional problems and statements such as "well I cannot bring back today, because I don't have a truck, can you pick it up instead?..." or if the seller says, "well I just actually spend some of the money..."

Unless you agree otherwise, the deal is done, anything beyond else is the prerogative of the seller, and if needed, included in sale wording.
I personally, don't ever accept "game refunds".

Using proper invoices keeps sellers often out of small claim courts against overdrive pintards for legitimate, trustworthy sales.

Use a minimum of one witnesses on higher end sales above $10K, and get notary support, if required.
Another often skipped step.
Once you "pass the threshold" into car sale cost category, it is time to get serious, and stop dicking around.

People will take me for this advice later.

When I have a game for sale... it's the only one turned on. 19 others are dark until the deal is done.

We talk briefly about the love of the hobby and then get right to business. Inspect, play the game, then negotiate. Once his friends (Lincoln's, Franklin's, Jackson's and Washington's) are in my pocket, we can fire up the rest, spend time chit/chatting and pop a beer or soda, if interested.

You're incorrect, he did offer asking price.

if they got to the point of discussing price and he agreed, and only after hanging out backed out of the deal, it's a dick move. Lesson learned, be a dick and worry about the deal first before you try and be social. If he had just loaded it up then hung out we probably wouldn't be hearing about this. Either way, I have zero respect for someone who would wastes someone's time like that.

That dude sounds like he needs more pins and less of that kind of wife. Sheesh.

No, this is one of two things. Either the guy knew he shouldn't have spent that kind of money and did so anyway, or didn't communicate beforehand. I know what my realistic budget is for any large purchases and before I make one I discuss it with my spouse. My guess is there is going to be more than pin purchase problems in this relationship.

no, it sounds more like he needs to remove the tape that is holding his wiener to his ass.

Your a better man than me.

Bring three lawyers and a judge as well. Otherwise you're just an amateur pinball buyer

Seriously? Most of the stuff you say makes sense, but this one doesn't. The best way to take care of it is cash only and don't look back. Cash on the glass, as-is.

The poster did the guy a favor, and it worked out for both of them. How would an invoice have changed that.

Verbal agreements can be enforceable, but they are usually based on industry standards, witnesses, or other behaviours that back up the terms. Again, cash on the glass pretty much ends any legal recourse.

For a high ticket machine, maybe a hand written bill of sale is appropriate. But with all the cheapskates in the hobby, no one is going to spend $30+ on a notary, and its not needed anyway.

If a person does not believe me, or my experiences that is an enthusiast's prerogative.

Times are not as before.
Individuals regularly in the last 5 years in some cases have stopped $30-150K in games in one year. Others have spent equal to that in restorations, sometimes above the value of the games itself.

The first time an individual encounters a complete nutjob, or a first time buyer that thinks a game is covered by some type of unspoken warranty or wants a refund two months later because they are bored, a person might just change their mind.

The more games a person buys, the more my advice will make sense. This includes things such as entire containers of machines or collections, not just individual machines from private owners.

Preparing proper invoices takes 5-10 minutes, is not difficult, and saves hours of frustration, beyond what I already mentioned.

Many sellers have personally thanked me for this knowledge when they sold games in the future. Buyers have asked for the format, terms, and exact wording on invoices.

I don't notary $400 games.
I do notarize $20K+ games.
I have acted as a witness and inspection in such cases.
I always do invoices for game records.
Special sales contracts and transfer of funds go into place with large volume sales or HER games.
It is good business practice and dealers do the same aspects.
Long time dealers already know, not just for tracking sales, income, or taxes.

I cover the full spectrum of all types of purchases. The higher you go, the more you protect.

- TBK

This is great information for some of us pin-noobs... I am new to the hobby and just purchased my 3rd pin a few weeks ago. I feel it is a pretty rare game and the owner was beyond cordial and extremely informative about the hobby. Spent about 3-4 hours at his home. I hope that as I grow my collection I deal with more people like him!

Milltown, Sux you had a crap experience, but we all learn from our mistakes.........

TBKX...

Are your bills of sale as long as your posts? You should really lighten up this isn't rocket science.

The topic wasn't about selling containers, it was a single $1,500 machine, between non dealers. This probably represents the vast majority of pin sales.

Every now and then you'll run into some douche bag thats cheap, and dishonest (such is life). That being said my experience in this hobby is that most people are totally above board, honest, and passionate about the hobby.

I enjoy reading Chris' posts. He's informative and intelligent. The guy knows what he is doing. We should thank him for making such well thought out posts. He has been a big help personally and doesn't have to do the things he does. He is truly one of the nice guys in the hobby.

If someone wants a bill of sale from me to buy a game, then I am going to the next buyer.

That is plain and simple.

You call it a pain in the butt, I call it organized. Let's agree to disagree and sing kumbaya.

Also, always get paid in coinage. Paper money is too easy to duplicate.

I've been buying & selling machines for 20yrs and never have had a bad experience.
The process is not complicated.

Buying:
1. It should only take 2 minutes to determine if the machine is worth the asking price.
2. If it is - pay, load and go.
3. If not - say no thanks and go.
4. Depending on #2 or #3 you should still be out the door in under 5 minutes.

Selling:
1. Let the buyer examine the machine.
2. Tell the buyer "as is - where is"
3. Help load if requested.
4. Wave goodbye.

As a buyer or a seller, I'm not interested in listening to you talk about your collection, cars, wife, favorite teams or fuses. I just want the transaction done ASAP so I can get back to my life.

Well said...Keep it simple...its not hard....its interesting of the 4 machines I've sold over the last 6 months the wife has showed up with the buyer every time....easier that way I suppose....eliminates the drama of her finding it later

Yeah. It's a cut and dry business transaction....not a social visit... we are not "bonding" over a machine.

"You had me at lollygagging."
-mof

I always find it nice to meet other pinheads that are local. All the folks who have purchased from me seem like really good people. That being said lallygagging around is of no interest to me....like Star said its a business transaction....no bonding necessary

I've done bill of sale before. I was the buyer, had the price agreed before my arrival, and had prepped the document ahead of time. It simply served as a confirmation that I did indeed pay what I claimed I would and in return I now owned the game. It was like two sentences. Seller noted never having done that before but thought it made sense for a higher dollar purchase. When I bought from him again I didn't bother (sale was lower value and we'd already known how we both operate in terms of post-sale expectations [none]).

Personally, I'd consider such a tool if you're spending a few thousand. If someone is perturbed to admit they sold you something in writing, and you did all the work, probably not worth buying from them. I don't do signed forms at lower price points, but I have put my phone in voice record mode before (works fine even if in a pocket) and captured the sales transaction, with me clearly stating how much I've paid, asking the seller to confirm they received what they asked for, and so forth. In my state such recordings are legal, and I've done it to have proof of the verbal agreement. Never had an issue needing it, but it makes me feel better if I don't know the seller.

Since some have shared horror stories as buyers, I've only got one. It was election night in 2012, and I was buying a pin I saw on Craigslist (X's & O's I think it was). Seller hadn't listed a price, I made an offer sight unseen, seller agreed. I was en route, sent a text letting them know I was on the way with the cash in the amount I offered. I get there, say I was there to buy the game. Seller said they just sold it (the new buyer was there still loading it up). Seller asked if I wanted to look at anything else. I left. I think I sent a blunt text stating it would have been courteous to inform me he was selling to someone else so I didn't have to spend my entire evening fighting election night traffic to drive over and waste my time (no reply of course).

I was pissed. I didn't buy a game for three years after that, and haven't purchased off Craigslist since then (just coincidence, but still, makes the story sound more compelling so I'm throwing that in!).

I agree sometimes you just want to get it done. On the other hand I've made some long term friends over a pin transaction. The social aspect is part of the fun I think. Often times you can get a read on how it's going to go by the communication beforehand.

images (resized).jpg

Yeah I had this happen before too, I only drove an hour though but still sucks. His wife was the one who said they weren't selling it anymore.. argh!!

That really sucks and I'd be frustrated too

Mine was an hour and a half of driving too and supposedly "his wife" said she wanted to keep the game. So not only do some people back out they then throw their wife under the bus for it. Really pathetic. My 10 year old son at the time cried on the way home. Then a month later he lists it for sale again for the same price. Then I get a pm that the game is available again. I didn't even bother responding.

Taxi? Yeah I can see buying it back.

Raven? He's on his own.

I completely agree with this. When I sell a game, I typically have the game moved to the garage from my game room so that the attention can be on the game being sold. Once the transaction is done and I've made the determination that you're not a serial killer, I typically extend an invitation to see the rest of my collection. If there is something they'd like to play, I most certainly let them do so. If I'm under a time constraint, I state that up front. Otherwise, I'm happy to have someone who enjoys pinball like I do, play the games in my collection while we talk pinball

As AlexF says, the social aspect of pinball is fun and getting to know someone that you're likely going to see again at a local show or perhaps buy/sell with again in the future is a good thing.

Dave

I had one where the wife raised the price on me back in 2011! I went to a garage sale about 25 minutes north of me. The guy had a bunch of solid state machines in his basement. I made a cash deal for a Genie and an Eight Ball for $700 for the pair. The guys says OK, we have to go pay the boss. We go back to the garage and his crusty bitch of a wife with her cigarette in her hand asks him "which ones he buying?" He says eight ball and genie. She says "how much?" He says $700, she goes each? No, $700 for both he says. She gets up in his face and starts calling him a dumbass and says to me "you need to give me $800 for them 2 machines" I looked at her and said I made a deal for $700 with your husband, that's what I will pay. She says "I'm in charge here, they is $800!" I looked at her and said I don't do business that way and for some reason dropped about 30 cents in change on the ground at her feet. I just walked away, got in my truck & left. I couldn't stop laughing, but I really wanted the Genie.

LOL the change throw was a nice touch.

I have a friend who was telling me stories of the bad old days. He got mugged in a subway station by a guy with a knife. All he had was like 75 cents. The mugger suddenly had a bout of reflection, realize he had wronged someone as poor as him. He said "sorry man" and refused the money. My buddy was so pissed off he threw the change at him and screamed "you asshole!!!" or something equally as eloquent.

I lol'd.

I am pretty sure it was the change I had in my pocket and I had put it in my hand while she was calling her husband dumbass to just jingle it around while they argued. I just plainly remember tossing it at her feet when I said I don't do business like that. It was pure disgust. I am pretty sure that's why I was laughing so much when I got back in my truck. Her eyes looked like someone just took off with her last Marlboro when the coins landed at her feet.

Sounds like you've been talking with my wife. She's pretty sure anyone I could possibly meet on Pinside is right up there with the characters she watches on the latest Dateline or 48 Hours.

This has happened to me before. I bought a Roadshow that I thought I liked. Turned out that the game blows and I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. Finally some guy came along with his 2 kids and bought it and took it home. The next day he called asking me to please take it back. I felt bad but I hated the game and didn't want to have to go through the BS of trying to sell it again and I had already agreed to buy something else with the cash.

Just curious, what didn't you like about Road Show?

What is there to like about it?

It has flippers, balls, ramps, lights. Do you not like those things?

Yes I do. And when RS was the only machine in the local pizza place back in 1995 I played it quite a few times while drinking beer.

It is a great game to play if it is the only choice you have. And somebody else owns it.

I love Uncle Buck! And miss John Candy.

My condolences to the OP on what sounds like a purchase gone awfully awry too.

Roadshow is fun till you buy one. The modes, and that is really all there is to the game, never change order and they are easy and basically Red and Ted are annoying as hell. It got old and boring FAST.

This is the only bad point with the wide body pins, they are pretty much mode based. There is a big difference however in TZ, STTNG, and IJ than RS at least in my opinion.

I had the opposite result with Roadshow. I hated it before I owned one. Once I had it, I liked it way more, when it I had it at the house, played flawless, leveled and dialed in correctly.

What was it that made you go out and buy a pin that you hated?