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Quoted from Wickerman2:All that said, how is this transaction different than any credit card purchase by strangers in any business? Serious question.
One less middleman
As a credit card merchant you have a contract with specific rules both parties are accountable to.
When its you and paypal... the agreement basically says "we have the right to fuck you ..."
The PayPal agreement screws you - the merchant agreement is strict, but has accountability
Quoted from John_I:No offense but why as a business would you take paypal for a big ticket item from somebody who is standing right in your shop? Cash is King. If not cash, why not have him hand over a credit card rather than paypal?
It is retail - you don't really demand customers pay in cash.
Same reason they eat higher card charges even on small transactions. You gotta fit the buyer.
But here the chase to save 3% is gonna cost him a ton more. Taking an unsecured payment is risky and releasing the goods is risky.
Business rules and policies are there for a reason.... to help protect yourself
Quoted from koji:Up until recently, the Friends and Family payment was pretty safe if you were receiving.
No its never been safe. As a buyer you have no protection from 'never got it' and sellers are always at risk of chargebacks. As a buyer it could nake sense if you get the goods in person, but never was safe remote or for sellers.
the angle used here has always been around.
Its why early on people tried go avoid linking their bank account with paypal... because paypal can claw back funds at will.
Nothing new here.... hell this was covered in this thread 6 years ago https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-not-get-ripped-off-in-pinball-vids-guide
And it was old hat then...
Quoted from Gunner:Call PayPal explain what happened. They will help you sort it out. I’ve had a similar situation and they gave me back the funds.
As long as the chargeback stands... PayPal will play dumb. They don't eat it on your behalf and they like their credit merchant agreements more than they feel they need you.
The path for restitution from paypal is to get the chargeback flipped with supporting information. But it sounds like the seller maybe lacking those receipts and disclosure agreements signed by the buyer.
Quoted from majicman110:Genuine and sincere question.
To all of you who are saying "cash is king" don't you think that you are more likely to get ripped off showing up to a stranger's house with cash?
I tell you I have a machine available for $4k. Cash only. I give you some random address and show up with a gun. When you pull up I wait in the driveway, tell you to come in then pull s gun on you and walk away with $4k cash.
If you go through PayPal (not using friends and family) I would think you are much less likely to get ripped off. As a buyer, I would see it as a red flag if you didn't accept PayPal and expected me to show up with cash.
You dont know how this works... at all
Quoted from tomdrum:If your buyers were there in person, CASH ON THE GLASS. If not goodbye. I would of stated that before they ever came to look and not wasted hours on a non cash buyer. I've taken PayPal on a game for a deposit or an out of state buyer who was having it shipped (fees were paid) but never ever on a face to face transaction.
Did you miss the park where this is a retail transaction? Not a private sale
Quoted from twenty84:Every story has two sides. It seems like threads like this change a lot once we hear the other side, in this case we many never know since the buyer is never identified and they are likely not on pinside but this is from the OP's side of the story:
- The buyer paid the OP $7500 for a TZ that didn't work or has serious issues - "Against my recommendations that a newer machine may be more reliable and less problematic." Kind of sounds like the seller knew this game had issues.
- Payment was made by credit card through PayPal F&F. The PayPal user agreement explicitly states F&F is not meant to be used to pay for goods and services. Not really surprising PayPal doesn't want to get involved or eat the loss on this.
- The OP told them "the next time I was near him I would stop by for free to fix the machine." Sounds like that never happened.
- When the buyer tried to talk to the OP about it, he hung up on them and blocked them.
I'm sorry to hear things didn't go the OP's way, but it isn't that surprising.
Hes no saint in this... but this is a dark version of the story.
We all know older games are can be more flaky. Such statements do not make the seller trying to dump a turd. It is reality over the grand scheme. Ask ops and retailers.
Paypal is a guy trying to save his 3% - we all know the motivation and the corners being cut here.
The promised visit was not based on a due date. The story is very easy to follow that he punted on the customer after more behavior he didn't like. Not just black and white never did what he said.
Quoted from tomdrum:Nope. All the reason he should of never done a F&F PayPal payment.
Yes but the point is you cant run a retail shop and expect your customers to show up with 8k cash or turn them away.
You wouldn't have any customers
Quoted from TigerLaw:I would never accept PayPal from anyone. I’ve used it as a buyer when requested by a seller only.
Question: I have always seen people say friends and family is the way to go if you are a seller because it is harder for the buyer to reverse the transaction on you. Apparently that is no longer the case?
With f&f the reasons paypal will refund a buyer are very limited. So thats what they mean...
But the catch is... when you fund it with a credit card... the credit card has its own chargeback rules. And when PayPal gets a chargeback... they claw it back from the seller.
So while the statement is true in pure PayPal terms... its not true in practice because real world is more than PayPal's own refund policy
Quoted from pookycade:Unless I’m missing something, this was a chargeback via MasterCard thru and thru. Use F+F or not, a chargeback is possible. That’s always been the case for a credit card transaction. My guess is that PayPal would stick it to you regardless here, including digging the money out of your linked bank account if need be. In their mind they are just the middleman here and his beef should be with MasterCard not them. Chargebacks have been an issue as a retailer since the dawn of credit cards
But you have a bone to pick with PayPal when they won't cooperate and make it impossible for you go defend yourself to mastercard.
PayPal doesn't fight back hard on the chargeback... and keeps you from doing so effectively
Quoted from twenty84:He goes on about the no warranty part but then he tells the seller "the next time I was near him I would stop by for free to fix the machine." At that point the expectations have appropriately changed, and I think if he had done that the buyer wouldn't have reversed the credit card charges or at the very least he could have taken the game back at that time and refunded their money. This is a game that was sold in April and this is now getting posted so it sounds like OP really took is him in going out there to get it fixed and eventually chose to cut off all communication with the buyer. I'm reading between the lines here but it sounds like the buyer waited about 90 days to dispute the transaction with their credit card which is usually the outer time limit for this stuff. To me it sounds like they gave the OP a reasonable time to resolve it with them which he wouldn't do. Perhaps the buyer was a pain the butt but at that point he basically forced them to take it up with the credit card if they wanted any resolution.
I think you glossed over where the Op capitulated - to try to find a compromise... and the customer's behavior just a week later threatening him is why he says he punted on them.
If someone says they are going to stop by when they are in the area... a week is not a huge amount of time. We don't know what the conversation after was... but you gotta figure it wasn't pleasant for the op go basically say"ive had enough" and cut ties.
Quoted from cooked71:One lesson is to make sure you don’t have a credit card linked to your account. If there’s nothing in the account and no credit card, what can they do but close the account?
This used to be the way to protect yourself against clawbacks... but in the US at least now.. paypal basically forces you to tie it to a funding source (bank)
Quoted from colonel_caverne:I don’t get it with Friend and family payment.
I alway though that those who are paying with FnF were not protected with paypal policy. Why buyer has been refunded?
It's easier to just point people to the 6 year old thread...
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-not-get-ripped-off-in-pinball-vids-guide#post-1813448
Quoted from AFM95:Well, if he can do 33 more $7,500 transactions through F&F and not get f$%#ed over again, he would break even as if he was selling through Goods and Services the entire time.
The question is, what are the odds that this will happen again in the next 33 transactions?
Wrong thinking. When a business takes a loss, it's a question of 'how long will it take to recoup that loss'. If he makes $500/game... then it's going to cost him.. probably 12 more game sales JUST TO BREAK EVEN. Then you ask, how long will it take to sell 12 games.. and can you keep tolerate doing it for 'nothing'.
The 3% cost/savings is dwarfed by his 5-6k loss in the game... nevermind the opportunity cost.
Quoted from cooked71:Curious what protection PayPal would have given the the seller if he had not F&F’d?
Would still have been at risk - this is why people hate paypal. Their logic and standards are just stupid.
Paypal protection doesn't exist to protect the seller - it exists to protect the buyer. And if paypal gets hit with a chargeback... they aren't going to eat it. They will pass it through.
It's an incompetent middleman that exposes you.
Quoted from Durzel:Also, if it were a Friends & Family payment there would be no avenue to file a dispute, as there is no Buyer Protection (PayPal's scheme) with them. See here for confirmation.
They didn't win a dispute via paypal - They did a chargeback on their funding of paypal.
Quoted from Durzel:Whilst that's true (about CC chargebacks happening outside PayPal), this wasn't a F&F payment because if it was the buyer wouldn't have been able to file a dispute through PayPal themselves.
Again - they didn't file and win a dispute through paypal. Their credit card company granted them a chargeback. Paypal just takes the money back from the seller because paypal doesn't want to eat the transaction.
This is the crux of the problem and always has been.
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