I was going to say. Its literally the first thread stickied when you enter the forums....

Well, if he can do 33 more $7,500 transactions through F&F and not get f$%#ed over again, he would break even as if he was selling through Goods and Services the entire time.

The question is, what are the odds that this will happen again in the next 33 transactions?

Everyone needs to stop thinking of the "friends and family" part of PayPal as offering some sort of protection....THERE IS NONE.....Period. The only thing F&F does is to allow the sender to pay the percentage PayPal holds for facilitating the transaction. Outside of that, there is no difference in protections offered. The sender can still do a chargeback, they can still make a complaint, etc. End result, you can get just as screwed with F&F as with any other CC based payment.

Probably pretty good, now that he's shown us all the procedure for getting a free TZ machine from him...

You hit the nail square on the head, cops will not involve themselves--civil all the way. Only way to get this back may be the the olde skool method involving a couple of goons...

Wrong thinking. When a business takes a loss, it's a question of 'how long will it take to recoup that loss'. If he makes $500/game... then it's going to cost him.. probably 12 more game sales JUST TO BREAK EVEN. Then you ask, how long will it take to sell 12 games.. and can you keep tolerate doing it for 'nothing'.

The 3% cost/savings is dwarfed by his 5-6k loss in the game... nevermind the opportunity cost.

I'm still a bit confused as to why a local business (completing a local in-person sale) would even consider using PayPal in any way.

They should either be getting cash, or doing a straight credit card transaction (and if you have to add a couple % for the CC fee, so be it).

Yes, a bad customer could still do a charge back on the CC, but you'd be in a much better position to dispute/resolve it.

Whether law enforcement will get involved is totally dependent on the local law enforcement office. There are plenty of locations in the US that law enforcement would investigate this matter if a report were to be filed (there are also plenty that would view this entirely as a civil dispute and not involve themselves). The OP should go through the steps of filing a report, he may need it for other reasons as well such as an insurance claim if he has insurance to cover against this sort of thing.

Hopefully he is able to recover his game at some point.

I'm curious whose idea it was to do this transaction with PayPal (especially with the Friends and Family option).

If the store owner suggested this, then as a buyer I would see that as a big red flag, and want to know why he can't just take my credit card (or accept cash).

If the buyer suggested this, then as a seller I would see that as a big red flag, and want to know why he just can't pay with his credit card (or pay cash).

An in-person transaction using PayPal F&F is fishy in either direction.

There is absolutely no way to prove any criminal intent here. Maybe a small town department might look at this, but it is totally a civil matter.

PayPal should go back to their original business model.

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I sold a Gottlieb Chicago Cubs game to a complete stranger via PayPal a couple of years ago. Shortly after the sale I read up on some of the horror stories of people getting ripped off with charge backs. Stressed me out for the 12 months or however long the buyer had the potential opportunity to pull shenanigans. They never did but reading the stories made me realize that Cash is King! Sorry to hear this story!

Curious what protection PayPal would have given the the seller if he had not F&F’d?

Would still have been at risk - this is why people hate paypal. Their logic and standards are just stupid.

Paypal protection doesn't exist to protect the seller - it exists to protect the buyer. And if paypal gets hit with a chargeback... they aren't going to eat it. They will pass it through.

It's an incompetent middleman that exposes you.

I was specifically talking about avoiding the 3% fee. Not recouping cost by his margin's, etc.

I get your angle though.

I've been really uncomfortable doing transactions with large amounts, and I do NOT trust PayPal with my bank details.

So far I've done business via cashier's checks and that has gone ok. One person brought me cash which I didn't love, but it also went fine.

Too bad the OP won’t come back and provide any answers.

Idk there’s more here than meets the eye.

If you have a balance in your PayPal account and send a F&F payment the sender pays nothing and the receiver pays nothing.

If there's an issue with that transaction as the sender, you are screwed. No protections at all.

Small claims court is the route to go

They can overturn that real quick

Also I probably would never do PayPal if local or semi local picking up

Other people had that happen in my area
Sounds like a forced credit card chargeback
Your going to have to go the court route and also I would steer against PayPal w locals
Just my 2 cents

What’s wrong w cash? Most prefer

I'm not equipped to identify counterfeit bills and don't want to stand there awkwardly looking every bill over. I also don't like carrying that much cash on my person to deposit it. I'd rather have a cashier's check.

Most fakes won’t feel right, and if it’s a real bill that’s been washed and reprinted then it won’t look right. Plus bills are loaded with security features...or just get the pen and make quick work of it.

Well, if it were me based on the same facts that have been shared with us here, I’d approach the matter by reporting the item as stolen and then file for charges to be brought for them being in possession of stolen property (no need to show criminal intent at the onset with that approach). This would mean the OP could potentially get the item back if it gets re-sold to a third party as well...he would at least have a chance. If he does nothing then he has no chance if they won’t return the machine.

I agree this is all location specific and whatever approach may work in Texas or Nevada may not work in California or some other state. Every area is totally different. I also agree we are probably missing some key info that would impact the thought process and possibly even the recovery options.

Time to talk to your local Hell's Angels.

Is the appropriate response hell yeah?

I feel a whole lot more secure in my ability to tell a real $100 from a fake one than my ability to tell a fake cashiers check from a real one! I have also been told that postal money orders are the way to go. Except that when I took a postal money order into the post office to cash it, they said they wouldn't cash it because there are too many fakes floating around! Even they claimed they could not tell genuine from fake!

That vid article on avoiding ripoffs said postal money orders are only good up to $100 or something.

Correct, it was $200 at one time but its been years since I have dealt with them.

We need an update!! Did Rob get the machine back? Was something worked out? High powered New York attorney to represent him?

Pinside needs to know!!

Not only that, but if a scammer is actually attempting to pass counterfeit bills, you will have a WHOLE lot more help from law enforcement than you would with someone doing a credit card charge back.

Passing fake bills is clearly a crime (and a federal one at that), as opposed to a disputed credit card transaction - which (as others have stated here) is usually a civil matter.

What happened to the OP? Can he explain why he used paypal at all when he had a business? I am glad he posted about this regardless as it has reminded me not to deal with paypal for over a few hundred dollars in the future.

Agreed, eagerly waiting op's response.

It’s been 2 days since the original post, and there’s been no response from the OP. Any update would be appreciated. Mistakes were made, but we all want to see you get your game back and Know what your actual interactions with the police, the customer, PayPal, etc. were like. Have you contacted a lawyer?

Common trend here will have someone post an inflammatory post and never post anything again. It’s like the flaming bag of poop placed at the front door.

I lol'd at this, but it's so true.

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As others have clearly stated and not to come off as obtuse, but the Paypal service is literally called Friends & Family for a reason. I am all for saving a buck, too. However, getting screwed, hurt, etc., can be the end result of cutting corners. The very first lesson I learned on this site and which has stuck with me ever since is if I am ever to buy any expensive item used via a classified sales system, including pinball machines, it's Escrow.com. Escrow.com. Escrow.com!!!

Before I retired I owned an escrow company and it was under the California Dept. of Corporations.
The fastest way to scare off a seller is to offer an escrow.
Pinball is a cash on the glass affair otherwise I don't play.
Learned that lesson the hard way buying a Florida Floater Part Me Zone.

Any luck on getting the machine back or making these people happy enough to pay you?

Escrow.com is a lovely idea but I doubt more than a tiny percentage of people in this hobby would
Go for it. I would have zero interest in any deal involving escrow.

Why? I sold a pricey game to a pinsider I didn't know using it and it wasn't much of a hassle at all.

That’s nice.

Not interested. I’m sure a majority of pinsiders would feel the same way.

This.

Also, if it were a Friends & Family payment there would be no avenue to file a dispute, as there is no Buyer Protection (PayPal's scheme) with them. See here for confirmation.

The mistake was taking PayPal at all for an in person sale, on an item that you weren't prepared to offer a warranty on if they took it away. PayPal doesn't care about your terms of business, it cares about a customer saying that the product is "significantly not as described", faulty or whatever.

Sorry you got ripped off, but you were mad to accept PayPal for a transaction like that, and arguably should not accept it period on items you're not prepared to offer returns or a warranty on (e.g. a boutique 20+ year old pinball machine)

Whilst that's true (about CC chargebacks happening outside PayPal), this wasn't a F&F payment because if it was the buyer wouldn't have been able to file a dispute through PayPal themselves. F&F would technically be a valid way of paying for a pinball machine (CC reversals notwithstanding), but accepting actual "Item I sold" purchases through PayPal, for a used pinball machine, is just nuts. A buyer could file a dispute saying that a major mech is non-functional, and PayPal will not give the slightest crap about how easy it might be to fix, they don't care about the nuances of the item that was sold, as far as they're concerned their customer - the buyer - bought a faulty item.

People are talking about escrow. I am curious how that may help in this case other than another layer of buerocracy?

Perhaps another intermidiate to ensure the buyer sent something back to the seller, or does the seller have a chance to confirm that the item was returned int he same order it was shipped out? what happens when the ultimate desparity happens, and someone is lying? at the end of the day, the CC authority sided with the buyer.. the potential for escrow to do the same is here as well.

It would be awesome if you were on Judge Judy. Thats the only way to go with this.

Eye opening read. I just shipped a project machine I sold to a pinsider using paypal F&F today. Hopefully no ill comes from it. I also was looking to buy a game off what turns out to be a different pinsider (found their ad on facebook). Was going to use the paypal funds from the aforementioned sale to pay for this game. After a day of him trying to set it up and deciding he wanted a cashiers check I passed. Reason being with the mail being slowed (have had some shipments take 2-3 weeks lately) I didn't want the headache of transfering funds to the bank, getting check, mailing it, waiting up to a few weeks for him to get it, cash it, wait for it to clear.

Would be nice if there was a nice clear cut way to transfer funds. Have done direct deposit and had it take days to show. It can also be a hassle to do and has to be done in advance. Have had people request zelle before, but have not heard about if it can be reversed.

Zelle can not be reversed. No exceptions.

Another note, pay attention when you make a PayPal payment to someone. I had a Facebook transaction where the seller asked for PP F&F, I offered standard PP + the fee, he agreed. I then paid him...PP F&F for the total price + percentage fee. I F'd up and didn't even notice, never selected F&F, PP didn't ask. No idea how I screwed that up, told him to just keep the extra $ and luckily everything showed up.

Bank to bank wire transfer. Takes 15 minutes, non-reversible.

I tried it when selling a game a few years ago. I suggested it because people on Pinside suggested it and it was a huge hassle. I was actually embarrassed I suggested it in the first place once we got into the meat of signing up. We didn't end up using escrow.