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(Topic ID: 274839)

Don’t ever say never - paypal fxxcked me


By baller88

80 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 272 posts
  • 133 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 72 days ago by JohnnyPinball007
  • Topic is favorited by 19 Pinsiders

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    There are 272 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 6.
    #151 79 days ago

    I was going to say. Its literally the first thread stickied when you enter the forums....

    #152 79 days ago

    Well, if he can do 33 more $7,500 transactions through F&F and not get f$%#ed over again, he would break even as if he was selling through Goods and Services the entire time.

    The question is, what are the odds that this will happen again in the next 33 transactions?

    #153 79 days ago
    Quoted from jaytrem:

    Question about paypal f+f. Can an email account be set to not accept f+f? If not I think the PinballStar paypal incident would potentially make for a nice class action. It shouldn't be his responsibilty to make sure which paypal method people are paying with. No doubt similar stuff has happened to countless companies.

    Everyone needs to stop thinking of the "friends and family" part of PayPal as offering some sort of protection....THERE IS NONE.....Period. The only thing F&F does is to allow the sender to pay the percentage PayPal holds for facilitating the transaction. Outside of that, there is no difference in protections offered. The sender can still do a chargeback, they can still make a complaint, etc. End result, you can get just as screwed with F&F as with any other CC based payment.

    #154 79 days ago
    Quoted from AFM95:

    Well, if he can do 33 more $7,500 transactions through F&F and not get f$%#ed over again, he would break even as if he was selling through Goods and Services the entire time.
    The question is, what are the odds that this will happen again in the next 33 transactions?

    Probably pretty good, now that he's shown us all the procedure for getting a free TZ machine from him...

    #155 79 days ago
    Quoted from gambit3113:

    Regardless of opinion, I guarantee you that the police will only inform him that this is a civil matter and will not get involved.

    You hit the nail square on the head, cops will not involve themselves--civil all the way. Only way to get this back may be the the olde skool method involving a couple of goons...

    #156 79 days ago
    Quoted from AFM95:

    Well, if he can do 33 more $7,500 transactions through F&F and not get f$%#ed over again, he would break even as if he was selling through Goods and Services the entire time.
    The question is, what are the odds that this will happen again in the next 33 transactions?

    Wrong thinking. When a business takes a loss, it's a question of 'how long will it take to recoup that loss'. If he makes $500/game... then it's going to cost him.. probably 12 more game sales JUST TO BREAK EVEN. Then you ask, how long will it take to sell 12 games.. and can you keep tolerate doing it for 'nothing'.

    The 3% cost/savings is dwarfed by his 5-6k loss in the game... nevermind the opportunity cost.

    #157 79 days ago

    I'm still a bit confused as to why a local business (completing a local in-person sale) would even consider using PayPal in any way.

    They should either be getting cash, or doing a straight credit card transaction (and if you have to add a couple % for the CC fee, so be it).

    Yes, a bad customer could still do a charge back on the CC, but you'd be in a much better position to dispute/resolve it.

    #158 79 days ago
    Quoted from Billy16:

    You hit the nail square on the head, cops will not involve themselves--civil all the way.

    Whether law enforcement will get involved is totally dependent on the local law enforcement office. There are plenty of locations in the US that law enforcement would investigate this matter if a report were to be filed (there are also plenty that would view this entirely as a civil dispute and not involve themselves). The OP should go through the steps of filing a report, he may need it for other reasons as well such as an insurance claim if he has insurance to cover against this sort of thing.

    Hopefully he is able to recover his game at some point.

    #159 79 days ago

    I'm curious whose idea it was to do this transaction with PayPal (especially with the Friends and Family option).

    If the store owner suggested this, then as a buyer I would see that as a big red flag, and want to know why he can't just take my credit card (or accept cash).

    If the buyer suggested this, then as a seller I would see that as a big red flag, and want to know why he just can't pay with his credit card (or pay cash).

    An in-person transaction using PayPal F&F is fishy in either direction.

    #160 79 days ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    Whether law enforcement will get involved is totally dependent on the local law enforcement office. There are plenty of locations in the US that law enforcement would investigate this matter if a report were to be filed (there are also plenty that would view this entirely as a civil dispute and not involve themselves). The OP should go through the steps of filing a report, he may need it for other reasons as well such as an insurance claim if he has insurance to cover against this sort of thing.
    Hopefully he is able to recover his game at some point.

    There is absolutely no way to prove any criminal intent here. Maybe a small town department might look at this, but it is totally a civil matter.

    #161 79 days ago

    PayPal should go back to their original business model.

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    #162 79 days ago

    I sold a Gottlieb Chicago Cubs game to a complete stranger via PayPal a couple of years ago. Shortly after the sale I read up on some of the horror stories of people getting ripped off with charge backs. Stressed me out for the 12 months or however long the buyer had the potential opportunity to pull shenanigans. They never did but reading the stories made me realize that Cash is King! Sorry to hear this story!

    #163 79 days ago

    Curious what protection PayPal would have given the the seller if he had not F&F’d?

    #164 79 days ago
    Quoted from cooked71:

    Curious what protection PayPal would have given the the seller if he had not F&F’d?

    Would still have been at risk - this is why people hate paypal. Their logic and standards are just stupid.

    Paypal protection doesn't exist to protect the seller - it exists to protect the buyer. And if paypal gets hit with a chargeback... they aren't going to eat it. They will pass it through.

    It's an incompetent middleman that exposes you.

    #165 79 days ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Wrong thinking. When a business takes a loss, it's a question of 'how long will it take to recoup that loss'. If he makes $500/game... then it's going to cost him.. probably 12 more game sales JUST TO BREAK EVEN. Then you ask, how long will it take to sell 12 games.. and can you keep tolerate doing it for 'nothing'.
    The 3% cost/savings is dwarfed by his 5-6k loss in the game... nevermind the opportunity cost.

    I was specifically talking about avoiding the 3% fee. Not recouping cost by his margin's, etc.

    I get your angle though.

    #166 79 days ago

    I've been really uncomfortable doing transactions with large amounts, and I do NOT trust PayPal with my bank details.

    So far I've done business via cashier's checks and that has gone ok. One person brought me cash which I didn't love, but it also went fine.

    #167 79 days ago

    Too bad the OP won’t come back and provide any answers.

    Idk there’s more here than meets the eye.

    #168 79 days ago

    If you have a balance in your PayPal account and send a F&F payment the sender pays nothing and the receiver pays nothing.

    If there's an issue with that transaction as the sender, you are screwed. No protections at all.

    #169 79 days ago

    Small claims court is the route to go

    They can overturn that real quick

    Also I probably would never do PayPal if local or semi local picking up

    Other people had that happen in my area
    Sounds like a forced credit card chargeback
    Your going to have to go the court route and also I would steer against PayPal w locals
    Just my 2 cents

    #170 79 days ago
    Quoted from zaphX:

    I've been really uncomfortable doing transactions with large amounts, and I do NOT trust PayPal with my bank details.
    So far I've done business via cashier's checks and that has gone ok. One person brought me cash which I didn't love, but it also went fine.

    What’s wrong w cash? Most prefer

    #171 79 days ago
    Quoted from rollinover:

    What’s wrong w cash? Most prefer

    I'm not equipped to identify counterfeit bills and don't want to stand there awkwardly looking every bill over. I also don't like carrying that much cash on my person to deposit it. I'd rather have a cashier's check.

    #172 79 days ago
    Quoted from zaphX:I'm not equipped to identify counterfeit bills and don't want to stand there awkwardly looking every bill over. I also don't like carrying that much cash on my person to deposit it. I'd rather have a cashier's check.

    Most fakes won’t feel right, and if it’s a real bill that’s been washed and reprinted then it won’t look right. Plus bills are loaded with security features...or just get the pen and make quick work of it.

    #173 78 days ago
    Quoted from Billy16:

    There is absolutely no way to prove any criminal intent here. Maybe a small town department might look at this, but it is totally a civil matter.

    Well, if it were me based on the same facts that have been shared with us here, I’d approach the matter by reporting the item as stolen and then file for charges to be brought for them being in possession of stolen property (no need to show criminal intent at the onset with that approach). This would mean the OP could potentially get the item back if it gets re-sold to a third party as well...he would at least have a chance. If he does nothing then he has no chance if they won’t return the machine.

    I agree this is all location specific and whatever approach may work in Texas or Nevada may not work in California or some other state. Every area is totally different. I also agree we are probably missing some key info that would impact the thought process and possibly even the recovery options.

    #174 78 days ago

    Time to talk to your local Hell's Angels.

    #175 78 days ago
    Quoted from Gryszzz:

    Time to talk to your local Hell's Angels.

    Is the appropriate response hell yeah?

    #176 78 days ago
    Quoted from zaphX:

    I've been really uncomfortable doing transactions with large amounts, and I do NOT trust PayPal with my bank details.
    So far I've done business via cashier's checks and that has gone ok. One person brought me cash which I didn't love, but it also went fine.

    I feel a whole lot more secure in my ability to tell a real $100 from a fake one than my ability to tell a fake cashiers check from a real one! I have also been told that postal money orders are the way to go. Except that when I took a postal money order into the post office to cash it, they said they wouldn't cash it because there are too many fakes floating around! Even they claimed they could not tell genuine from fake!

    #177 78 days ago
    Quoted from sbmania:

    I feel a whole lot more secure in my ability to tell a real $100 from a fake one than my ability to tell a fake cashiers check from a real one! I have also been told that postal money orders are the way to go. Except that when I took a postal money order into the post office to cash it, they said they wouldn't cash it because there are too many fakes floating around! Even they claimed they could not tell genuine from fake!

    That vid article on avoiding ripoffs said postal money orders are only good up to $100 or something.

    #178 78 days ago
    Quoted from zaphX:

    That vid article on avoiding ripoffs said postal money orders are only good up to $100 or something.

    Correct, it was $200 at one time but its been years since I have dealt with them.

    #179 78 days ago

    We need an update!! Did Rob get the machine back? Was something worked out? High powered New York attorney to represent him?

    Pinside needs to know!!

    #180 78 days ago
    Quoted from sbmania:

    I feel a whole lot more secure in my ability to tell a real $100 from a fake one than my ability to tell a fake cashiers check from a real one!

    Not only that, but if a scammer is actually attempting to pass counterfeit bills, you will have a WHOLE lot more help from law enforcement than you would with someone doing a credit card charge back.

    Passing fake bills is clearly a crime (and a federal one at that), as opposed to a disputed credit card transaction - which (as others have stated here) is usually a civil matter.

    #181 78 days ago

    What happened to the OP? Can he explain why he used paypal at all when he had a business? I am glad he posted about this regardless as it has reminded me not to deal with paypal for over a few hundred dollars in the future.

    #182 78 days ago
    Quoted from nate1981s:

    What happened to the OP? Can he explain why he used paypal at all when he had a business? I am glad he posted about this regardless as it has reminded me not to deal with paypal for over a few hundred dollars in the future.

    Agreed, eagerly waiting op's response.

    #183 78 days ago

    It’s been 2 days since the original post, and there’s been no response from the OP. Any update would be appreciated. Mistakes were made, but we all want to see you get your game back and Know what your actual interactions with the police, the customer, PayPal, etc. were like. Have you contacted a lawyer?

    #184 78 days ago

    Common trend here will have someone post an inflammatory post and never post anything again. It’s like the flaming bag of poop placed at the front door.

    #185 78 days ago
    Quoted from rai:

    It’s like the flaming bag of poop placed at the front door.

    I lol'd at this, but it's so true.

    #186 78 days ago
    Quoted from rai:

    It’s like the flaming bag of poop placed at the front door.

    giphy.gif

    #187 78 days ago

    As others have clearly stated and not to come off as obtuse, but the Paypal service is literally called Friends & Family for a reason. I am all for saving a buck, too. However, getting screwed, hurt, etc., can be the end result of cutting corners. The very first lesson I learned on this site and which has stuck with me ever since is if I am ever to buy any expensive item used via a classified sales system, including pinball machines, it's Escrow.com. Escrow.com. Escrow.com!!!

    18
    #188 78 days ago

    Levi nailed it for the most part

    They weren’t trying to scam Just pissed off and expected a retail level of service that is sometimes not possible with old pinball machines I told them what I needed to clear and they added the calculations and paid the fees PayPal got paid by the buyer I saw the correct amount clear and I never really thought about dissecting it. I’m optimistic still and I truly believe this wasn’t malicious, Btw for the negative people ok this forum - I’m posting this so others are aware in this community on what could happen Posting on a public forum isn’t my thing . Everyone ever ripped off should always share with the community Pride needs to be set aside to protect others from getting scammed PayPal Nigerians and all the fake websites tell # s etc

    #189 78 days ago

    Before I retired I owned an escrow company and it was under the California Dept. of Corporations.
    The fastest way to scare off a seller is to offer an escrow.
    Pinball is a cash on the glass affair otherwise I don't play.
    Learned that lesson the hard way buying a Florida Floater Part Me Zone.

    #190 78 days ago
    Quoted from baller88:

    Levi nailed it for the most part
    They weren’t trying to scam Just pissed off and expected a retail level of service that is sometimes not possible with old pinball machines I told them what I needed to clear and they added the calculations and paid the fees PayPal got paid by the buyer I saw the correct amount clear and I never really thought about dissecting it. I’m optimistic still and I truly believe this wasn’t malicious, Btw for the negative people ok this forum - I’m posting this so others are aware in this community on what could happen Posting on a public forum isn’t my thing . Everyone ever ripped off should always share with the community Pride needs to be set aside to protect others from getting scammed PayPal Nigerians and all the fake websites tell # s etc

    Any luck on getting the machine back or making these people happy enough to pay you?

    Escrow.com is a lovely idea but I doubt more than a tiny percentage of people in this hobby would
    Go for it. I would have zero interest in any deal involving escrow.

    #191 78 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Escrow.com is a lovely idea but I doubt more than a tiny percentage of people in this hobby would
    Go for it. I would have zero interest in any deal involving escrow.

    Why? I sold a pricey game to a pinsider I didn't know using it and it wasn't much of a hassle at all.

    -4
    #192 78 days ago
    Quoted from ectobar:

    Why? I sold a pricey game to a pinsider I didn't know using it and it wasn't much of a hassle at all.

    That’s nice.

    Not interested. I’m sure a majority of pinsiders would feel the same way.

    #193 78 days ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Accepting paypal for an in person transaction where cash could have been placed on the glass sounds pretty stupid to me.
    It's like when somebody tries to hand me a personal check for anything. "Now, how bout you going to your bank to cash it so I don't have to, then come back and see me."

    This.

    Also, if it were a Friends & Family payment there would be no avenue to file a dispute, as there is no Buyer Protection (PayPal's scheme) with them. See here for confirmation.

    The mistake was taking PayPal at all for an in person sale, on an item that you weren't prepared to offer a warranty on if they took it away. PayPal doesn't care about your terms of business, it cares about a customer saying that the product is "significantly not as described", faulty or whatever.

    Sorry you got ripped off, but you were mad to accept PayPal for a transaction like that, and arguably should not accept it period on items you're not prepared to offer returns or a warranty on (e.g. a boutique 20+ year old pinball machine)

    Quoted from Manimal:

    Everyone needs to stop thinking of the "friends and family" part of PayPal as offering some sort of protection....THERE IS NONE.....Period. The only thing F&F does is to allow the sender to pay the percentage PayPal holds for facilitating the transaction. Outside of that, there is no difference in protections offered. The sender can still do a chargeback, they can still make a complaint, etc. End result, you can get just as screwed with F&F as with any other CC based payment.

    Whilst that's true (about CC chargebacks happening outside PayPal), this wasn't a F&F payment because if it was the buyer wouldn't have been able to file a dispute through PayPal themselves. F&F would technically be a valid way of paying for a pinball machine (CC reversals notwithstanding), but accepting actual "Item I sold" purchases through PayPal, for a used pinball machine, is just nuts. A buyer could file a dispute saying that a major mech is non-functional, and PayPal will not give the slightest crap about how easy it might be to fix, they don't care about the nuances of the item that was sold, as far as they're concerned their customer - the buyer - bought a faulty item.

    #194 78 days ago

    People are talking about escrow. I am curious how that may help in this case other than another layer of buerocracy?

    Perhaps another intermidiate to ensure the buyer sent something back to the seller, or does the seller have a chance to confirm that the item was returned int he same order it was shipped out? what happens when the ultimate desparity happens, and someone is lying? at the end of the day, the CC authority sided with the buyer.. the potential for escrow to do the same is here as well.

    #195 78 days ago

    It would be awesome if you were on Judge Judy. Thats the only way to go with this.

    #196 78 days ago

    Eye opening read. I just shipped a project machine I sold to a pinsider using paypal F&F today. Hopefully no ill comes from it. I also was looking to buy a game off what turns out to be a different pinsider (found their ad on facebook). Was going to use the paypal funds from the aforementioned sale to pay for this game. After a day of him trying to set it up and deciding he wanted a cashiers check I passed. Reason being with the mail being slowed (have had some shipments take 2-3 weeks lately) I didn't want the headache of transfering funds to the bank, getting check, mailing it, waiting up to a few weeks for him to get it, cash it, wait for it to clear.

    Would be nice if there was a nice clear cut way to transfer funds. Have done direct deposit and had it take days to show. It can also be a hassle to do and has to be done in advance. Have had people request zelle before, but have not heard about if it can be reversed.

    #197 78 days ago

    Zelle can not be reversed. No exceptions.

    #198 78 days ago

    Another note, pay attention when you make a PayPal payment to someone. I had a Facebook transaction where the seller asked for PP F&F, I offered standard PP + the fee, he agreed. I then paid him...PP F&F for the total price + percentage fee. I F'd up and didn't even notice, never selected F&F, PP didn't ask. No idea how I screwed that up, told him to just keep the extra $ and luckily everything showed up.

    #199 78 days ago

    Bank to bank wire transfer. Takes 15 minutes, non-reversible.

    #200 78 days ago
    Quoted from ectobar:

    Why? I sold a pricey game to a pinsider I didn't know using it and it wasn't much of a hassle at all.

    I tried it when selling a game a few years ago. I suggested it because people on Pinside suggested it and it was a huge hassle. I was actually embarrassed I suggested it in the first place once we got into the meat of signing up. We didn't end up using escrow.

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