Every story has two sides. It seems like threads like this change a lot once we hear the other side, in this case we many never know since the buyer is never identified and they are likely not on pinside but this is from the OP's side of the story:

- The buyer paid the OP $7500 for a TZ that didn't work or has serious issues - "Against my recommendations that a newer machine may be more reliable and less problematic." Kind of sounds like the seller knew this game had issues.

- Payment was made by credit card through PayPal F&F. The PayPal user agreement explicitly states F&F is not meant to be used to pay for goods and services. Not really surprising PayPal doesn't want to get involved or eat the loss on this.

- The OP told them "the next time I was near him I would stop by for free to fix the machine." Sounds like that never happened.

- When the buyer tried to talk to the OP about it, he hung up on them and blocked them.

I'm sorry to hear things didn't go the OP's way, but it isn't that surprising.

Paypal is the MAFIA... plain and simple..

They smacked me a few years ago - Now mind you they make um... maybe about $ 50,000, maybe more, a year off me on fees I pay, customers pay etc... anyway...

I got bitch slapped for a few people sending me F&F (which I did not tell them to do, but they just went and did it so I let it slide)... that and when I was doing raffles to donate WOZ machines to children's hospitals are the only times I think I used F&F....

So... they all in one shot lock my account maybe I had $ 20,000 in there after a few payments... and say... now hold your breath... that I cannot have my money or withdraw it until I reach 100,000 and then and only then can I withdraw whatever is over 100,000. I fucking lost my skull. I literally got nowhere arguing logic to them that the F&F was a mistake, I wasn't aware nor instructed people to use that... I had to BEG and I mean beg them to relent and finally it was only when I bought up that some of the transactions where people donating to my charity fund where I give games to children's hospitals did they finally say ok.. I think it even took me sending them pictures of sick kids with pinball machines and articles that were written about our donations for them to 'get nice'.

They SUCK you know what... Now when someone pays me paypal I don't care if it's $ 25 I withdraw the money immediately. They will never hold me hostage again.

Word of caution - anyone using F&F to buy or sell your head is in the guillotine waiting for the blade to drop - don't do it, it's not worth it. When they catch you you're dead meat. And mine wasn't even intentional nor with malice (donations)...

Oh gawd I wish someone would come to my house with a gun. Oh what fun I’d have. I looove NH!

That's fine,the seller get to keep his machine and no harm done.
And yeah I expect a prospective buyer to show up with cash,so I can get paid, you know!

And this is why I carry concealed.

It's not just the Theft.

This is also Wire Fraud and a Federal Offense. Unless their intentions were to honestly pay for a machine, this is not only theft but also Fraud. Involving Paypal makes it even stickier.

You dont know how this works... at all

Did you miss the park where this is a retail transaction? Not a private sale

Hes no saint in this... but this is a dark version of the story.

We all know older games are can be more flaky. Such statements do not make the seller trying to dump a turd. It is reality over the grand scheme. Ask ops and retailers.

Paypal is a guy trying to save his 3% - we all know the motivation and the corners being cut here.

The promised visit was not based on a due date. The story is very easy to follow that he punted on the customer after more behavior he didn't like. Not just black and white never did what he said.

I would never accept PayPal from anyone. I’ve used it as a buyer when requested by a seller only.

Question: I have always seen people say friends and family is the way to go if you are a seller because it is harder for the buyer to reverse the transaction on you. Apparently that is no longer the case?

Yes but the point is you cant run a retail shop and expect your customers to show up with 8k cash or turn them away.

You wouldn't have any customers

Not of you are a business

Private among known people it works fine.

Rob’s a good guy. He finds games in his area, gets them working, then sells for pretty reasonable prices. Here it seems he got taken advantage of. He’s gone out of his way to help me out and throw a couple of parts my way when needed. I’d buy from him again

Unless I’m missing something, this was a chargeback via MasterCard thru and thru. Use F+F or not, a chargeback is possible. That’s always been the case for a credit card transaction. My guess is that PayPal would stick it to you regardless here, including digging the money out of your linked bank account if need be. In their mind they are just the middleman here and his beef should be with MasterCard not them. Chargebacks have been an issue as a retailer since the dawn of credit cards

Right. They clearly paid with a credit card through PayPal. They paid the 3% fee that rob was weaseling out of (its only free for both parties if paid via bank account). For their money they got the ability to charge it back through the CC.

The whole thing sucks. These people are way out of line.

But yeah it should be a wake up call for the friends and family set.

Rob does indeed always seem to have very fair prices. Bought my RCT from him. Would be more than happy to do business with him again.

Not sure what his current setup is. But he had a dedicated pinball shop at one point. I know he keeps some of his games his restsurant(s). So that might explain the pizza place thing. I feel for him. Tough time to be in the restaurant biz, and now having to deal with this.

Pay a lawyer to draft a letter that they are about to get sued for the cost of the game and legal fees if it’s not retuned immediately. Send it certified if they don’t respond serve them and follow through with a lawsuit.

These whole “PayPal is evil” threads always turn into a dogpile. Of course PayPal is evil, and if ever a business deserved to go bankrupt it is them (well maybe Comcast vying for first place). Have I done a chargeback, indeed I have when a the USPS lost a shipment and seller said that was my problem not theirs.

This is very very simple: 1) call them up and ask if they will provide back the machine. If so don’t get into some bitching session, just pick it up and move on. I suspect this will be the outcome. They were pissed and so filed the chargeback and credit cards are well known for better or worse protecting their customers 2) if they tell ya “we are keeping it sucka” then unfortunately it’s lawyer time if worth it. Or small claims court if losing $2500 is better than all of it. And filing a police report for wire fraud though that’s gonna be a long ugly path to go down.

Yes it’s easy for me sitting outside of it all to be dispassionate. And it isn’t my $7500. But being systematic about it and unemotional will get the job done with the least amount of personal pain. I suspect while time is involved that he will get the pin back.

I never said the seller was trying to dump a turd. In my experience well maintained BW games are more reliable than modern Sterns and I would expect one at that price not to have any issues. Sure, anything can happen but it really stuck out as odd to me to claim the seller bought a game he was selling at his retail location "against my recommendations".

He goes on about the no warranty part but then he tells the seller "the next time I was near him I would stop by for free to fix the machine." At that point the expectations have appropriately changed, and I think if he had done that the buyer wouldn't have reversed the credit card charges or at the very least he could have taken the game back at that time and refunded their money. This is a game that was sold in April and this is now getting posted so it sounds like OP really took is him in going out there to get it fixed and eventually chose to cut off all communication with the buyer. I'm reading between the lines here but it sounds like the buyer waited about 90 days to dispute the transaction with their credit card which is usually the outer time limit for this stuff. To me it sounds like they gave the OP a reasonable time to resolve it with them which he wouldn't do. Perhaps the buyer was a pain the butt but at that point he basically forced them to take it up with the credit card if they wanted any resolution.

I also agree you can't expect a retail location to only take cash, but as a regular credit card transaction the OP would have been on much better footing.

With f&f the reasons paypal will refund a buyer are very limited. So thats what they mean...

But the catch is... when you fund it with a credit card... the credit card has its own chargeback rules. And when PayPal gets a chargeback... they claw it back from the seller.

So while the statement is true in pure PayPal terms... its not true in practice because real world is more than PayPal's own refund policy

But you have a bone to pick with PayPal when they won't cooperate and make it impossible for you go defend yourself to mastercard.

PayPal doesn't fight back hard on the chargeback... and keeps you from doing so effectively

I think you glossed over where the Op capitulated - to try to find a compromise... and the customer's behavior just a week later threatening him is why he says he punted on them.

If someone says they are going to stop by when they are in the area... a week is not a huge amount of time. We don't know what the conversation after was... but you gotta figure it wasn't pleasant for the op go basically say"ive had enough" and cut ties.

Absolutely....there is nothing criminal here for the police to even consider. I was in law enforcement for well over 25 years, and we got these type of calls all of the time. Dispatch won't even bother sending a unit.....it's a civil matter all of the way, but not limited to just the buyer. The case is with PayPal and the Credit card folks as well...and can get very complicated. Yes, I know what the agreements state, but I would contact your states attorney and start with their consumer affairs division first. You should be able to recover the machine....I realize the laws favor the consumer here, but they were never intended to be punitive towards the supplier either.

This is key. Taking F&F as a business is bad, but in reality, OP would probably have been just as screwed had it been a normal payment. I don't think these people set out to rip him off since they tried to contact him for help on fixing the game and I don't think they would do that if their intent was to get the game for free all along. But, even with a normal CC payment through Paypal, if they want to be dishonest and potentially get the game for free, they can easily do it. Even in a best case scenario where the OP doesn't lose the game, those payment funds could be frozen for days, weeks or longer while everything is sorted out. Paypal has to play by the CC company's rules and honestly they don't care much who loses money as long as it isn't them, plus there really isn't that much they can do vs. a credit card company even if they really want to. Depending on the reason the person gave for the chargeback, they are likely just as helpless in the situation as the seller who is out the money. If people really realized half the things they can do with credit cards and chargebacks, businesses (online especially) would be crippled by dishonest people gaming the system.

It doesn't apply here, but one type scenario is that credit cards were never meant to be used when not in person. The number is only there as a fall back when the magnetic strip doesn't work. Accepting CC's online without a physical swipe and/or signature really opens you up to potential issues. I recently sold a brand new Target exclusive talking Fozzy Bear on eBay. Person bought it, got it and was super happy about it. Left positive feedback saying they loved it and sent me a message saying how her son who is on the spectrum loves it and plays with it constantly. Fast forward a week and I get another message saying her son broke it and she wants to return it now. I was super nice about it, but explained that she was thrilled when the item arrived as expected, that I don't accept returns and I can't be held responsible for her son breaking something that was brand new a week later. Fact is, it was a Target exclusive toy from a couple of years ago, so I couldn't replace it if I wanted to. I tried to help her trouble shoot it and directed her to the manufacturer, but she didn't want to hear it and said she was going to file a complaint. Ebay sided with me, but she went to her CC and filed a chargeback saying that the item arrived "not as described" which was utter non-sense as I had it her own words that that was a lie. Paypal took the money from me and started their "investigation". I had her positive feedback saying the item was as described, I had her message saying her son loved it and was playing with it constantly and I even had her message saying her son broke it after the fact...didn't matter. They sided with her and her obvious lie to get the outcome she wanted. I lost all the money including shipping...plus a $20 chargeback fee on top of that for good measure...she didn't even have to return the item. Wonder if it really was even broken? Who knows.

Everytime I sell anything of any kind of substantial value online I hold my breath because you just never know. It's gotten to the point where I only sell smaller dollar things on eBay that I am mentally and financially prepared to simply lose out on completely if it comes to that...right or wrong. I understand that retailers have to take electronic payments for high dollar items like pinball machines, but as an individual I would never consider doing that personally. For me, if that had to be done, then the sale isn't right and I am not going to force it and end up regretting it later.

I'm not in any way trying to rub salt into the wounds of the OP... however for the sake of EVERYONE who reads this thread please read the paypal terms of service. No one ever does until it is too late.

Ineligible items and transactions

"Your sale is not eligible for coverage under PayPal’s Seller Protection program if:
It involves an item that you deliver in person, including in connection with a payment made in your physical store, unless the buyer paid for the transaction in person by using a PayPal goods and services QR code.

It involves a payment sent using PayPal’s friends and family functionality."

So to be clear, it isn't merely the friends and family faux pas that is screwing over the seller here. It is also the fact that the seller protection policy is pretty narrow and basically requires shipment of goods.

Now I'm going to provide help to the OP:
[note that I'm not sure the OP would be successful at arbitration if he/she violated all the terms of service however it may be the best way to get a conversation going... which is better than nothing]

If a dispute arises between you and PayPal, acting as either a buyer or a seller, our goal is to learn about and address your concerns. If we are unable to do so to your satisfaction, we aim to provide you with a neutral and cost effective means of resolving the dispute quickly. Disputes between you and PayPal regarding the PayPal services may be reported to customer service online through the PayPal Help Center at any time, or by calling (888) 221-1161 from Mon-Fri 5:00 AM to 10:00 PM PT and Sat-Sun 6:00 AM to 8:00 PM PT.

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#agreement-arbitrate

I had a retail store selling pinballs and video games from 95 till about 2010. I usually gave 30 days parts and labor on used pinballs. If anyone called with an issue, whether I delivered or they picked it up, I was out there within 48 hours. Even for a few months after the warranty expired I usually waived any fees. I didnt care if it was a broken flipper link or the dreaded 5v reset. It was good customer service. Even today I still get calls from customers from 15 to 20 years ago and I still fix the games at a discount. Customer service creates word of mouth, good and bad.

Cancelled my Pay Pal account. Not going back. Similar situation, just fewer dollars.

I will offer to inspect first, put a small deposit and come back with cash. I will offer to bring it to my retail location. Cash only though.

Question about paypal f+f. Can an email account be set to not accept f+f? If not I think the PinballStar paypal incident would potentially make for a nice class action. It shouldn't be his responsibilty to make sure which paypal method people are paying with. No doubt similar stuff has happened to countless companies.

Got scammed by PayPal a few years ago through EBay. Sold a dvd box set to someone in Canada. Gave him 2 options for shipping - one express and one regular. Obviously the regular was significantly cheaper so he asked me to send it regular. I warned him it would take 30-40 days. He agreed.

Anyway, didn’t turn up in 30 days so he complained to EBay, and it turns out they have a no questions asked refund policy if it is over 30 days shipping. I provided the correspondence showing he agreed to the slower shipping but didn’t matter. Since I couldn’t prove delivery yet, they gave him a refund due to their 30 day policy. Since EBay own PayPal the transaction was instantly refunded, no questions asked and no authority from me.

I had no cash in my PayPal account but had a Visa card linked, so they took it directly from my Visa Card. Again no direct authorization from me.

The box set arrived 3 days later and was signed for. Spent hours on the phone trying to explain this to PayPal and EBay, but no one would do anything about it. (By now the time wasted by me was about 10 fold what the box set was worth, but I wasn’t going to let it slide).

Then had the idea to dispute the PayPal withdrawal from my credit card directly with my bank. Told them there was a fraudulent withdrawal from my card and I didn’t authorize it. My bank asked PayPal for proof and they couldn’t provide it. Bank gave me the money straight back.

Even worse was it was my 10yo Son’s dvd box set (go the Smurfs!!) and he was selling it to buy something else.

One lesson is to make sure you don’t have a credit card linked to your account. If there’s nothing in the account and no credit card, what can they do but close the account?

Anyway, f*ck PayPal. Will never accept PayPal for anything. Glad I got burnt on a small amount, not for a Twilight Zone. Really is Fraudulent and I have no idea how they get this sort of behavior past financial regulators.

Back in the early days of eBay and paypal I sold some

Really feel for OP. Sucks to not only be out the money but the machine as well. That being said all these "PayPal sucks" threads always begin and end the same; I accepted F+F (to avoid fees) and now I'm out money and my item.

It's almost like PayPal doesn't want to help you when you curtail the rules to avoid paying them their fair share...wierd.

It's not just PayPal, it's credit cards also.
Very difficult for a business to win charge backs

That being said, PP does have some good business protections if you process the payment via the correct channel - which you did not.

Who's responsibility should it be to review "your" business transactions? PayPal? If you own a business and accept PayPal, review each transaction to ensure F+F wasn't used. If it was, reject the payment and contact the buyer.

Made the mistake of signing up for PayEnemy and they facked up my Ebay acct.
Froze my card then wanted me to give them another.
I guess Ebay kowtows to them and were no help.
Closed my Ebay acct. and blocked their emails.
If you are a seller that only accepts PayEnemy then you don't get my biz.
Trying to buy some mods but the sellers use PayEnemy so I guess I don't need their stuff.

That's not up to me, that's up to the lawyers. Just wondering how the paypal system works. Can you set up something like that? If you get a f+f payment, is it clearly stated that it f+f? I really have no clue, I'm very rarely on the paypal receiving end.

This used to be the way to protect yourself against clawbacks... but in the US at least now.. paypal basically forces you to tie it to a funding source (bank)

It's very clear if you get F&F or not, about 3% will be missing for goods and services transactions.

F&F 3% will not be missing.

Civil matter, Police can do nothing.

Ive sold since 1984. Over 1K+ games. One client brought a Jokerz from me and claimed it was not the same game he looked at in the showroom. This was 3 weeks after he picked up. I offered a refund and he disappeared. This was the only bad exp I can think of.

Always and it never fails when a newbie buys a pinball they will have questions esp on an older game which is part of doing business selling used equipment. When a game is being sold for over 7K thats 30 years its likely a service call will be needed particularly with a first time buyer. This buyer needs to feel comfortable after the sale that they can get help and support . Otherwise, if they feel brushed off resentment starts and festers towards the seller quick.
We provided 90 days as well and that gives comfort to a buyer. Its common for customers to call during this warranty time and after with questions. A reset issue is common or maybe a flipper wire comes off etc. Like the previous poster said.

I wish you luck with the issue.

I don’t get it with Friend and family payment.
I alway though that those who are paying with FnF were not protected with paypal policy. Why buyer has been refunded?

Buyer either paid with credit card or bank and filed complaint with bank or credit card. They reversed charges and PayPal clawed back the funds. PayPal not going to help as seller was clearly abusing F&F option.

And people wonder why I deal just cash on the glass.

Yea, I thought that F&F payment meant there was no recourse for the buyer but through PayPal, but clearly the credit card chargeback took full precedence. I know that a lot of the people on Pinside that have been hit by the scammer had lost out due to making a F&F paypal payment but they apparently didn’t make that payment through a credit card.

It's easier to just point people to the 6 year old thread...

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-not-get-ripped-off-in-pinball-vids-guide#post-1813448

These debates come up over and over again. It's simple. If I don't know you, its cash on the glass - no exceptions. Especially if you are taking delivery of the game right now as opposed to after the check (or whatever) clears. If we are friends, or you are personally known to a close friend who will vouch for you, then we can negotiate any form of payment we both agree on.

If you are paying cash as opposed to receiving it, do as suggested earlier. Have a conversation on the phone so you can get a feel for who you are dealing with. Use Google earth to check out the neighborhood you are going to. Take one or more friends, preferably large. If you are legal, go armed and aware of your surroundings.

In the op's case, this sounds like some kind of brick and mortar retail establishment. Therefore, most people will expect you to take various forms of payment. They will also expect you to provide some kind of warrantee and repair services after the sale. Sounds like that didn't happen for whatever reason. If the game was sold without warrantee in a business setting, there should be a written receipt to show that clearly. And this whole thing then becomes a civil matter which is handled by lawyers. If it is not worth the cost of a lawyer, then it becomes a business write off for your accountant to deal with.

All that said, I would certainly show up at the person's door and make a big stink until he gave me back the game. Maybe knock on a few neighbors' doors and ask if they know if he is home and tell them you are trying to collect on a bad debt. I might have to do that several days in a row, but after a while I would think the annoyance would finally convince him to do the right thing.