I’m raging for you this is insane . PayPal is just so unaccountable

Unfortunately they are not a viable payment means for anything your unwilling to risk a total loss on

Total lottery

Respectfully, I am blown away that you would allow roughly a $7500- dollar machine walk out the door on a Paypal F&F payment from strangers. Newbie pinball owners at that.

Maybe,...and I'm not even sure about this but maybe if it was a Pinsider that you had done business with before.

I personally would be irate and already on my way to the police dept. to file a report for fraud and larceny.
Keep us updated. I am angry for you.
-Mike

-Mike

Rob, this SUCKS. Kind of sounds like PayPal is punishing you for using F&F. Next time trust your instincts man! Or at least make the buyer pay the fees so you go through the PP process. Take a video of them signing a waiver and a "no warranty" agreement. Hopefully you can get something worked out - hiring an attorney is expensive but if you get even half of it back that's more Than 0...

I don’t understand how they can take back the payment without returning the game. How can these people now keep the game for free legally?

Never use PayPal for large receipts. Cash or bank wire transfer only. Do you have a written receipt where it says no warranty implied?

That is insane. How can PayPal just do that without some way of ensuring the merchandise is returned? They probably got the credit card company to do a chargeback. I’d guess at that point PayPal probably doesn’t care and it wouldn’t have made a difference what you said or supplied as proof.

What can be done to get your game back? Can the police get involved or can a report be filled?

In addition to all that once you get it back you’ll have to go through it all carefully. Who knows what happened or what they did trying to make it work.

I may be old school but I've always brought and sold my pins with cash .
Ca$h is king .

I agree , how can they legally keep the machine .

Get the police involved!! And show up with the cops at their house to get The machine Back.

Kinda thinking this is a
good
Idea ..

I wonder if the OP even knows their address. He was paid via a paypal email address and did not deliver.

Sorry to hear that Rob. I agree, get the police involved. That's pricey enough that they should take it seriously.

Get the game back then send a bill for usage
And lost opportunity of sale!
Take it to small claims court!

I avoid using PayPal for any transaction unless I am the buyer or I am sending a real friend some money. I NEVER sell anything and accept PayPal as payment. NEVER.

Jeez go and collect that machine with some friends, this sounds like a total scam.

I never EVER use PayPal unless I know who I am dealing with, the fact they can just take money back out your account is to fucking scary.

Sorry this happened. You’re one of the good guys too. Always decent prices.

Hope this gets figured out.

Hope you get your money or the game back.
Not clear though, are you a retailer?
Was this paypal friends&family or paypal goods&services?
I know it sucks for you either way, but it would help us understand.

As a business, how are you able to process a Friends/Family payment?
Contact your attorney immediately.

Exactly !!!
From what I’ve learned here on pinside write up a receipt on a piece of paper with the serial number And date Clearly stating the machine is sold as is / no warranty.
Make them sign it.
If they won’t it’s a red flag.

This is why i hate paypal and wont do big transactions with it. I like to use zelle or good old cash.

Anyway that sucks hope you can get it worked out.

Hey OP, I would call the buyer, layout what you said when they bought the pin, layout what they did(filing a PayPal charge back), they layout what happens next - they allow you to pick up the game without damage to the game. Or they bring it back. If the buyer says no or damages the machine then layout that you'll file a police report and sue their asses.

Good luck OP, fuck PP.

Have you called the grifter family yet? Are their intentions to get you to come by and fix the game, just take the game home, or are they just planning on stealing it?

Don’t ever count on the police.
I respect and support them but a buddy’s work trailer was stolen Last year out of his driveway.
It had 40,000 worth of tools in it.
Trailer was worth 10,000.
Police did nothing.
He canvased his county For a couple weeks and Finally found it in a driveway.
Police didn’t want to get involved.
He Finally drove and parked in front of the home he found it at and called 911.
The drug addict who answered the door When 5.0 knocked played dumb.
This is a rental property And I don’t know where it came from.
I thought it was the landlords.
Total scumbag.
He got the trailer back but most of the tools had already been sold for drug money.
Sad

Unfortunately in the USA the laws typically favor the criminal.
You have to prove what they did was illegal and have documentation to prove it.
Chances are the police will say It’s a civil matter , to Get a lawyer/file suit against them and they aren’t getting involved.
If you had CCTV of them stealing it from your home that would be a very different story.

You have to sue them. Have your attorney draw up a letter to demand payment or return of machine in it's original condition. Have the attorney explain that you will sue for the machine, damages, and ALL costs. This might be enough to scare them into returning the machine. Any judge in the world will tell them, you got your money back, you must return the merchandise. I would also be on the phone with paypal working up the ladder to get an explaination of other and making sure they know that they are condoning theft of merchandise. Paypal sucks!

Oh wow, I just re-read your last sentence. You took F&F. Sorry dude, you caused your own issues. They probably have sold the TZ by now. See, they paid you with F&F on their mastercard. They called Paypal and paypal told them sorry, we are no help on F & F payments. So they called Mastercard and claimed fraud. Mastercard then charged Paypal back. Paypal calls you and decides they really don't want to deal with this and chalked it up as "other". Too bad, so sad. You are a business and you circumvented Paypal fees. Paypal is not going to do ANYTHING to help you. Court is your only option at this point.

When is everyone going to learn that this F&F payments through Paypal is not meant for business transactions?

Call paypal, explain to them and see what they say. Dont just do it via their emails etc. I had to actually talk to them one time, problem resolved presto.

That machine is now Stolen and I would report it as such.

“So they broke in and stole the machine?”

- well not exactly they paid with PayPal and then they reversed the charges

“So you sold it to them?”

-yes, but THEN they stole it

“Sorry here’s a bunch of bullshit reasons you can’t report it stolen”

Situation sucks. Rob’s best shot at this point is That these people just want him to come take it home and they’ll allow him to do that. Once he (hopefully) gets his game back, he should tell the rest of us in the area who these people
Are so we know not to deal with them.

May be wrong but my understanding was F&F was to be avoided if you want safest transaction as BUYER. No?

All that said, how is this transaction different than any credit card purchase by strangers in any business? Serious question.

IF he can document ownership and show that they did not pay, it is a stolen machine.

He just has to note that he believes their intention was to never pay. At the very least, they will be cited and the machine will have to be removed from their residence until trial.

Paypal is standing between the CC Company and the Seller. At leaast in your scenario the seller has access to the Card # and the CC Company for redress.

By using Paypal friends and family, paypal is now a 3rd party processor. He also circumvented Paypal fees, Paypal is not going to fight Mastercard on his behalf.

If he had taken the Mastercard directly, he would have all the bank info and could have made a proper defense to the customer's chargeback.

payment types include:
Send to a friend - used when sending money to a friend or family member.
Paying for an item or service - Use this payment type when buying an item or service from someone. When you make a purchase, the seller pays a small fee to receive your money.

Why did you ever use FF except to scam PP from their rightful fees. This was not a lawful use of Friend and Family transfer because it was not a friend or family and instead was a paying for an item. You should know the difference.

anyone who scams PayPal by using FF to circumvent the fee structure is just as well stealing (IMO) like going to a fast food restaurant and asking for a water cup and instead filling up with free soda.

I would go to the customers house and politely ask them for the machine back as they have received a full refund . If they refuse , I would say and do things that could not be said here without being moderated .

Purchased a pinball machine from a pinsider awhile back. $500 PayPal deposit, personal check for the balance. STI picked it up a few weeks later after that part was settled. In this instance, you got to trust the seller. ....and sellers should NEVER arrange shipping.

Should change the title to "I fxxcked myself by taking Paypal friends and family because I am a business and tried to avoid fees"

Man I’ve been lucky used PayPal for more then 10-12 pinball transactions mostly friends and family never had a problem . Phew

How can he document ownership?

It’s not in his possession any more. I guess he needs a receipt from the person he bought it from with a serial number?

How would anybody here document ownership of a used pinball machine? An insurance statement?

True the biggest mistake here was doing a business transaction with F&F

They stole the machine. Stealing does not require breaking in. They took merchandise that has not been paid for. I’d involve the police immediately. I’d then call them and give them exactly one chance to resolve it. In the lawsuit later I’d name MasterCard and PayPal as defendants as well. Then I’d have it turned into a conspiracy charge between the 3 defendants. Finally if gather an armed militia to recover my precious. All because... TZ.

Another quick warning. I purchased two storage cabinets online and the seller ran my PP card as "tuition payment" rather than as a item purchased. One false tracker number and six weeks later I filed an official claim which was rejected three times because it was ran as a tuition payment. In the end it looks as if I will be able to reclaim my payment as a unauthorized payment and they canceled my card.

I thought i was covered using my PP master card but I was wrong.

The ad was an official ad on Facebook so just be warned.

You know these things have serial numbers, right?

Receipt from purchase.

Look I agree with you. It’s a scum move. These people have stolen his game. Hopefully
They will give it back, rob is gonna have to exercise some restraint and diplomacy I’m sure.

But while I like seeing the legal experts of pinside let us know what an iron-clad case of theft this is, I have my suspicions in reality it might not be as easy as you guys think to get the cops to go knock on this family’s door. We don’t even know if rob knows their address.

Morally and ethically, of course the game is stolen. Legally? Remains to be seen.

And there’s something to that “possession is 9/10ths of the law” thing.

Do you get a receipt of purchase with a serial number every time you buy a used pinball machine?

One less middleman

As a credit card merchant you have a contract with specific rules both parties are accountable to.

When its you and paypal... the agreement basically says "we have the right to fuck you ..."

The PayPal agreement screws you - the merchant agreement is strict, but has accountability

The Cops have to come and take his complaint and they have to file it. They can try and dissuade him, but if he insists they have no choice but to do it.

He has their address, he already stated such. As long as he has the Serial Number and can prove that he owned it, he is in good shape.

Not trying to argue w/ you on this one Levi. His mistake was not getting paid in cash if they wanted to leave with the machine that day.

No offense but why as a business would you take paypal for a big ticket item from somebody who is standing right in your shop? Cash is King. If not cash, why not have him hand over a credit card rather than paypal?

Yes.

Or, at the very least I write one up on the spot if it has not been provided for me. And have the Seller Sign and Date it, Notary if it is over 10K.

Same thing with guns, guitars and amps, cars, stereo equipment, bikes...you name it.

It was the First Commandment, I think?

Cover Thine Ass