10,000 spanks by X.... Nevermind.

Hmmm, I take public forums for what they are, an incubator of the good, bad and ugly. I think the disagreements are actually good for the forum, as long as it doesn't get personal or just nasty. My idea of what's good and what's bad about pinball is a direct result of the back and forth debates that I've observed here. About half of my collection are games that I bought based on what I read from this forum. You can't have a lively forum without difference of opinions. Lastly, I agree with the what was posted here earlier, if you're in business and are actively hawking wares then you should not be beyond criticism, it's part of business, yes I'm thankful for Stern and JJP keeping pinball alive but we should be able to debate what is good and bad about them.

Does he say it every time he gets a chance, Then ask why it bothers people?

I think it upsets Jack to read a lot of negativity and rumors or even accusations spread about his company. And the moderation team not doing enough about that. I can fully understand where he is coming from, but it saddens me that he seems to be viewing all of Pinside as one entity instead of a community of many different people who all have different opinions. Yes there is a vocal minority of guys seemingly trying to hurt JJP, but that will change as either these people get tired of it or the moderation team gets tired of them.

Standing on the sidelines and calling Pinside "wrong side" is not very constructive. It would make more sense to join in the discussion, debunk any nonsense that some feel the need to spread, reassure people who have questions or doubts about their orders etc. Instead of alienating a large part of (potential) customers he could use this forum as a direct means of communication with his customer base - like Ben Heck or Skit-B are doing so well.

I would hope he would start the dialogue again with the large part of his customer base who are here on Pinside on a daily basis. What better way to stop rumors then to speak the contrary, explain what's going on etc. straight from the companies founding owner?

I agree Robin,

I think a lot of the negativity has been brought on by Jack himself for keeping silent, especially here lately.

It wouldn't take that much of his time to type in a few lines addressing some of the questions people have about his product(s).

By alienating himself from pinside, I feel it is only going to hurt future sales.

I sincerely wish JJP success, as I feel he has truly created an awesome machine, but I feel he is only hurting himself by not taking an active roll here on pinside, where not only a lot of his current customers reside, but a lot of future buyers are as well.

It really is a shame that an ever changing vocal minority for the last three years has just taken to beating JJP down every chance they get, for whatever reason. I've gotten in trouble at times in my vocal defense and cheerleading of JJP because I let it get under my skin Now I could care less, Woz speaks for itself.

And now we no longer have Alex and Lloyd to provide support through Pinside. It appears that according to comments on the private forum that it will all take place there now. I don't blame Jack for pulling back in after the whole Alex situation here. It doesn't seem to be able to work out, same stuff over and over again ending up with an Alex ban.

I think Jack tried here, Alex and Lloyd certainly did, and maybe that's part of the problem, too many agitators responding and stirring things up every time they tried to explain and help, that will never end. So I don't blame them for that.

Maybe he's gonna take the Gary route now, seems to be working out for him, just say nothing, make excellent pins and let the product speak for itself. What he chooses to do here or not will have zero effect on his future success or not. The "dirty dozen" of agitators here haven't done anything to affect JJP, just cut off access and discussion and maybe that's for the best.

I for one have been a 3 yr kool aid drinker and am thrilled to have my Woz and feel terrible for those that don't yet and hope that its coming soon. I'm looking forward to #2 and am optimistic for the future!

I think the biggest problem with Alex, is Alex.

He flies off the handle way too easily, and is often his worst enemy.

I know a lot of tech people aren't good 'people persons', so I don't blame him as much as I think he was just trying to do a job on here that didn't match his skill set.

Often, technical people aren't suited for front line customer support.

I tend to agree Robin.

Everybody handles things differently, look at Lloyd, Alex wears his passion on his sleeve, so now that he is gone "the biggest problem" isn't a problem anymore. That's one way to deal with it.

Any other pinball companies you know of put themselves out here the way JJP did with Alex and Lloyd, and all that they did here?

I'm not a JJP customer, and I'll probably never be one. I'm only saying what I'm saying as an outside observer.

I was often embarrassed for Alex due to his behavior and how horrible he came across as a spokesperson for a company. IMO, Alex has no one to blame for his banning but himself.

I feel this exact way, so you aren't alone. I don't think Alex ever realized the damage he was doing to his personal brand by posting the way he did.

Like I said, Lloyd and Alex handled things differently. In customer service you have to have thick skin and put up with a raft of non stop shit, not suited for Alex maybe.

Alex doesn't have to "blame anybody", he's gone, that's it and we "JJP customers" will have to deal on the private forum now only, which is probably for the best. Can't work here, maybe something Stern figured out long ago.

And it saddens me to see that some people take this negativity or trolling or just different opinions WAY to seriously.
You will never see me engage a "troll", no i just chuckle and move on. Not that hard really, try it and be surprised how easy it is.
I will give an opinion here and there, but i will never try to make someone else take that opinion as the absolute truth. That's the beauty of opinion, we all are entitled to have one.

And what really suprises me is that Jack doesn't have a thicker skin. To let a minority, even if it's a vocal one, get so under his skin baffles me. I would have thought a guy who has endured much more in his lifetime to get where he is now, would be all but immume to this.
I know people talking bad about your products isn't easy or fun. But you will always have that, even if you make the GREATEST thing to mankind, you'll always have naysayers. It's part of mankind; just accept that.

Like i read many times, let your product to the talking, and try to answer the questions people have to the best of your ability. Ignore the trolling, chuckle like i do and move on.

I have disagreed with Alex as well and never had a name calling incident happen between us.....but he does know a lot about what people do as a whole on this board and he does have a few he loves to call out when they disagree with him.

Ice I like you man but I think JJP could piss & you'd call it rain.

More often than not I'd say Jack/Alex are their own worst enemies too (I'm sure they're great people in real life).

But who makes an announcement about a pending announcement?

A bullshitter

I just want my WOZECLE!

Alex will be back - he always comes back! (which I find kind of amusing in itself)...

I really disagree Robin. I don't think Jack ever expected it to be unicorns and showponies, but at some point in the past, it went over the top. There is no way Jack can say anything directly, just like there was no way for Alex to say anything directly. I've watched people say something, have Alex say how untrue it was, and why, and then a month later the same person would repeat that untruth in a forum. And if it wasn't that exact person, another in the group would say it. How many times can you defend the same truth before frustration sets in? When Jack was on here, every word led to 12 questions. But those 12 new questions were usually written in a way to cause chaos. It became less about the spread of knowledge, and more about the attack. And they all ended in poopnados. It became impossible to even sell a machine in the open forum without that thread turning into a poop storm.

At some point the crap outweighed any good Jack could do here. JJP people saying anything turned into a cesspool, and what a potential customer on Pinside sees is that JJP must not be very good because of how passionately it's detractors feel. So I think being on Pinside was starting to damage them more than any potential customer here could bring them. And now if they come back, it would be even worse. At some point, one side had to stop. And it looks like the ones that stopped will be JJP. That may not be good for this forum, but it is much better for JJP in my opinion.

Some people here have very short memory spans. On multiple occasions jack posted here and, probably after being frustrated with responses, went off the rails himself and joined in on personal attacks. Alex is way too quick to do so. There's a good reason Stern doesn't post here and I think they're smart for it. Sure, there are a few JJP trolls but again a lot of the drama comes from JJP. Missed promises of deliveries going so far back there's no way they thought the machines would possibly be delivered. Most recently the whole cabinet debacle and the spin that was put on it. Honesty and transparency are the enemies of drama. Even no news is better than lies or bs.

Agreed. Great response.

The reason the clamoring is getting louder is because people are getting nervous. The elephant in the room is whether or not this is a bump in the road or if this is the first outward sign JJP is in trouble. People that have preordered have every right to question what is going on. People considering getting TH (me) have every right to question what's going on before sending off money. The fact that JJP put out a impromptu "presser" in reaction to some spies reporting their happenings at the plant was peculiar and only created more questions, not answer them.
No one should want to see a company fail. In the end, time will tell. I for one am holding my TH money in my pocket until I see JJP is on solid footing.

Jack needs to revisit the results of the poll in this thread rather than reading the content. An overwhelming majority has made a statement just by answering the poll question. When 80% say JJP has lost credibility it can't be all blamed on a few trolls on wrongside. This has been brought on by deception, out-of-order shipping and failure to produce the purchased product in the time frame that was promised.

I agree.

I'm one of those that's still waiting for a WOZECLE

What worries me the most is all of the silence.

I'm on board for the MMr as well. So far, I think Rick has done a great job communicating with the public.

I just wish Jack could learn a thing or 2 from that.

When I purchased my WOZ, communication was flowing on an almost daily basis. Times were exciting back then. But lately, all we're getting is silence.

I don't get it. This silence, IMO, just seems so secretive. I realize there are other manufactures out there, and that JJP feels the need to keep some things to themselves, (production #'s for instance), but I think they really need to be more open as to what is going on at JJP these days.....what is being done about reset issues, lamp board failures, etc.

The nervousness that all of this silence has caused is the reason I chose to put my $$$ on the MMr, rather than a Hobbit.

I really hope that JJP becomes hugely successful.

In starting any new business, there is always going to be a learning curve.

If you think about it, the poll is meaningless and the options loaded. It's like asking people if they prefer their death to be slow and horrific, or quick and painless. No one in their right mind picks slow, just like no one would choose to "send their money years in advance" if there was the option not to. I think a more interesting poll would've involved options of what it would now take to convince someone to preorder under such a model.

I was okay with the pre-order system for WOZ; it made perfect sense considering the newness of the company and the regular flow of new information. But I do not like it at all with The Hobbit, especially with the almost total absense of new information during the past year. A third game? I already think requiring any significant payment of TH before people had WOZ was a massive mistake.

Dave H gets it.

I think if we keep things in perspective, we can remember that Jack is one of us. He is a pinhead, in a freaking huge way. Jack is not the enemy. There is the appearance of dishonesty in contradicting messages, but I think that is easiest explained by the enormity of the task at hand. Anyone who has ever taken on a new, challenging, business program knows there is a steep learning curve depending on the complexity of the processes involved. I am fairly certain Jack has run into MANY aspects taking longer than expected, and costing more. He has to be stressed out of his mind, knows how far behind he is with production, and is likely losing sleep over how to fix this as fast as possible...with everything taking longer than thought. WOZ is a tremendous effort whether we love it or not, and it is good for pinball. Pinball 2000 was great for pinball, and revolutionized games...then it died. We don't want that to happen with WOZ. Jack is probably taking sleeping pills every night and on anti-anxiety meds to deal with all of this (I know I would be).

Remember, he is ONE OF US, and I think all he needs from us on Pinside is to have his back. It is taking longer, costing more, he is trying to make it right. Let's cut him some slack, and as the pinball community, watch his back for him. If we don't support one of our own, who will?

Unfortunately, to many people, Pinside has the appearance of slowly becoming the wrong side only because they no longer perceive it as a civil and open forum where they (the pinball hobbyists) can freely express their opinions, share their knowledge, and exchange their stories.

An inveterate group of skilled and determined trolls whose primary purpose is to pursue their own agenda while pretending to be hobbyists are frequently gang-tackling and subduing anyone who dares to go against them, as they have successfully done so with people including but not limited to Jack, Keith, and Alex, to mention of a few. These trolls do this regularly and with apparent impunity while a few of the Pinside "moderators" aid and abet them, and cheer them from the bleachers. This has now become a very large problem and it has become obvious and unacceptable to many veteran Pinsiders, are you surprised?

Pinside has always been a great pinball site and I hope that this is just a temporary hick-up in its long existence, and that it never gets irreversibly compromised by a few bad eggs. I think you have a tough job on your hands Robin to make sure that it doesn't, and I don't envy your position. I'll take this opportunity to speak my mind freely one more time though and wait to see how many ban votes I get from the "moderators".

As to the direct information to dispel rumors I agree with you, last I heard was that JJP was going to do a news release one of these days.

Doesn't Jack have a direct communication path to his customers VIA his site\forum? If that's the case (which I think it is) there's really no reason to come here and battle the JJP haters..anything he says will be twisted in fuel

Well said.....very well said.

I've been in the manufacturing business for 30 years now.....started my own design/manuafcturing shop 15 years ago. Even though I knew my way around design/manufacturing, there still was a BIG learning curve I had to endure, things like locating good manufacturing partners, communications w/ customers, etc.

Hell, I'm still learning the ropes to this day.

Come on Curly! I've been just as critical of Jack and JJP when it was warranted, including recently with the silence over what is going on with production. Sometimes Jack, Alex and all of us are our own worst enemy.

The guy above correctly pointed out that Jack, Alex and Lloyd are all avid pinheads in the truest sense. I can't imagine anyone more so than a guy like Lloyd. WTF is not to like?

You can never satisfy or make some whiners happy, EVER. So now we'll spend the next week pissing and moaning and analyzing why they are gone and how its "their own fault"……really?

Alex and Jack may need some thicker skin and maybe its passion/ego driven, who knows, but Goodgameslover said it best, like Lloyd, they should embrace the criticism, consider the source, chuckle and let it go.

The non stop 3 year reign of people taking a baseball bat to JJP probably got old and its the best thing for them that don't participate here anymore. It's just escalates the stupidity. So stand up and cheer, take a bow, whatever, they are gone, good for you guys.

+1

Btw, change back to Curly!

Loosing current industry people like Keith Johnson from JJP and possible others from Stern due to a fairly vocal minority is not good for Pinside IMHO. I have seen threads go off the rails about the development of Williams and early Stern games that were brought inline within a few comments by Keith. This is an invaluable resource and I think you should somehow find the means to retain them.

I would agree if he was making the annoucement here, but he's making it on his own forum. That's a big difference to me.

I completely disagree with this. It'll probably take me awhile, but let me tell you why.

There are multiple aspects to the problem. One of the first things people find out when joining online communities is that nothing is private. I've heard multiple stories of a designer or someone emailing someone back privately, and of course that got reposted to rgp or wherever else much to their chagrin. That, in general, is why I typically engage debate publicly, because I don't want private communication either taken out of context or relayed piecemeal to possibly make the exact opposite point I was trying to make. I say what I want to say in public, and people can then judge for themselves whether I'm full of something or not instead of being filtered by some party that may have different intentions that I do.

Now, moving more towards the crux of your statement I quoted above, what is the internet definition of trolling? Typically it's something posted specifically to get a rise out of someone else (or some other people). But there is another form of trolling, and that's posting BS (that you KNOW is BS) either to force someone else to respond (kind of like definition A), or because you want a specific piece of information, and by posting crap you force someone to correct you.

If you aren't supposed to engage a troll, then why is it incumbent on Jack (or myself, or Gary Stern, or whoever) to respond? I can tell you there have been countless times where I could've corrected peoples' claims or assertions or whatever on pinside, and I refuse to because I consider it trolling for information. I got caught on it once on this site (specifically by mnpinball) and I won't let it happen again.

So basically, it sucks for us. We want to engage the community, and you want us to engage the community, but you're telling us specifically that we need to respond to trolls. See the problem? Why would anyone want to do that?

Basically, in that statement above, you're asking us to reward trollish statements and doing nothing to discourage the same. And that's not going to happen, at least not from me.

I agree with everyone. Teekee makes a good points and Alex is spot on. Brian K is also right and the CA guys are very smart too. Nice post KEF too and I agree with you as well but..... in the end rai sums it up best

Basically Keith is saying this:

trolls.png

Lol, and BillP might be in the running for post of the year... but its early yet.

You nailed it.

LTG was/is a class act, Alex needed to act with a little more class.

Exactly. Someone posted the other day that they received an email stating their WOZLE was going to be delayed 3-6 months so they got a refund. They were asked to post the email and didn't. 99.9% sure it was BS and just done to get a rise out of people waiting on their WOZLE.

Except it wasn't. Email was real, and so was canceling his order and getting a refund. Plenty of us know Robert, it's not like he's some random internet troll. I heard that story from him in person long before he posted it on Pinside.

WTF would you even assume that was BS? That was December. It's the middle of January and Jack just publicly acknowledged the 3 month part.

You should be more careful calling people liars.

It astonishes me how little gets comprehended here. It seems so simple to grasp but I see blatant misinformation even when facts are biting people on the ass.

As requested ! Sorry it took a few days, I wasn't in
this part of NJ until today (1/15 around 1:30PM)

JJP RIGHT SIDE LOT 1.jpg
JJP RIGHT SIDE LOT 2.jpg
JJP LEFT SIDE LOT.jpg
JJP SIGN NEW.jpg
(Sign in front)

JJP SIGN OLD.jpg
(Old sign from the front)

So what's with the new sign ? Where are Pinball Sales and Jack Guarnieri Service Company ?

Engage the community? How about being frank with the community. People aren't stupid. We know when we are hearing half cooked explanations. Wanna beat the trolls (god I hate using that term), give us support. Give us something to shout them down with. The game is phenominal. The "trolls" cant say much there so they swipe at the low hanging fruit, i.e. missed shipments.

Sure, Rick from PPS gives detailed answers weekly.

He answers his detractors and rumor mongers with a calm respect.

I'm assuming you're the person jack referred to in his post and it appears your info had credibility from before buy why not say what you know. The innuendo comes off poorly. Btw, the "new" sign looks wonky. The top is off. Sure hope you didn't photoshop that. And to be fair, how do we know those parking lot photos aren't from a Sunday to make it appear less than full?

Like I said, if you know something say it. If not, skip the innuendo and keep it to yourself.

I'd say he has more than enough cred to continue his business:

Lakewood, New Jersey - January 15, 2014 - Jersey Jack Pinball, Inc., the industry leading designer and manufacturer of premium, no-compromise pinball machines announces that they have entered into an equity partnership with the investment arm of JDA.

The founding group of JDA has a proven track record of success and generated over $40 million dollars for their shareholders in their last transaction.

This partnership will now enable Jersey Jack Pinball, Inc. to have the resources to fund multiple game platforms, expand into related technologies and markets, and to provide a catalyst for growth. It further provides Jersey Jack Pinball, Inc. with deeper management and financial resources.

"We are very excited to combine the strengths of these two dynamic organizations. The expanded talent, experience and financial strength that this brings will enhance the future products we are able to build and add to the enjoyment of our player base." said Jack Guarnieri, Jersey Jack Pinball, Inc. Founder.

The principals at JDA are true pinball enthusiasts as well and personally own over 40 pinball machines including Jersey Jack Pinball, Inc. world renowned The Wizard of Oz Pinball Machin

There you have it. There were issues but it seems like jack got them sorted out. Good for JJP and even better for the pinball community! Now let's hope the don't stifle his innovation and willingness to throw in the kitchen sink.
:

Jersey Jack Pinball, Inc. Enters Into An Equity Partnership With The Investment Banking Arm Of JDA

Lakewood, New Jersey - January 15, 2014 - Jersey Jack Pinball, Inc., the industry leading designer and manufacturer of premium, no-compromise pinball machines announces that they have entered into an equity partnership with the investment arm of JDA.

The founding group of JDA has a proven track record of success and generated over $40 million dollars for their shareholders in their last transaction.

This partnership will now enable Jersey Jack Pinball, Inc. to have the resources to fund multiple game platforms, expand into related technologies and markets, and to provide a catalyst for growth. It further provides Jersey Jack Pinball, Inc. with deeper management and financial resources.

"We are very excited to combine the strengths of these two dynamic organizations. The expanded talent, experience and financial strength that this brings will enhance the future products we are able to build and add to the enjoyment of our player base." said Jack Guarnieri, Jersey Jack Pinball, Inc. Founder.

The principals at JDA are true pinball enthusiasts as well and personally own over 40 pinball machines including Jersey Jack Pinball, Inc. world renowned The Wizard of Oz Pinball Machine.

About Jersey Jack Pinball, Inc.
Jersey Jack Pinball, Inc. was founded in 2011 with a passion to build premium, no-compromise pinball machines. Games built with passion and games that are fun to play which will become treasured for years to come. The first game that Jersey Jack Pinball, Inc. is building is The Wizard of Oz Pinball Machine. The game is now in full production with more than 700 games shipped as of December 2013. More games are popping up in commercial locations and in home game rooms all around the world. The company is in development of The Hobbit Pinball machine which will ship late in 2014.

About JDA
JDA is a private holding company developed for the purpose of transitional holdings of interest, incubation and performance of advisory services associated to the business interests of its shareholders. The shareholders of JDA have companies in the technology space including servicing the blind and developing critical mass computer applications, holdings of over $10 million in real estate, interests in gold and silver mining, a world class training facility for gymnastics and all star cheer, and consulting services that tailor to the telecom, data and technology sectors.

Contact
Jen Guarnieri, Marketing Coordinator
Jersey Jack Pinball, Inc.
1645 Oak Street Lakewood, NJ 08701
P: (732) 364-9900 Ext 203
[email protected]

Um I was talking about the snitches cred, lol. Not Jacks.

That's the same sign on the JJP webpage dopey !

The meta-data from the pictures indicate the pictures were taken on 1/15/2014 at 1:29pm. No GPS info available.