(Topic ID: 258303)

Does hitting the buttons harder help?


By Prodoshi

5 months ago



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  • 41 posts
  • 14 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by Prodoshi
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    #1 5 months ago

    Hello,

    hitting the buttons harder seems to help for me in some situation (not talking about slap saves),
    and I want to understand why. Especially when trying to livecatch it helps. But the only reason I
    can think of, is the change in timing, because it shouldn't affect the flippers mechanically, since
    you can't increase flipper power with harder hits? You can hit harder with additional nudging of course.

    So why do you hit harder sometimes or what do you know about it?

    #2 5 months ago

    Short answer, yes.

    Lighter taps will help with ball control while stronger slaps can help with harder shots. Example would be that I’ve noticed with my Deadpool Snikt shot, I need to give it just the right amount of power with precise accuracy. You also see pros do light taps as the ball returns to the flipper to help with ball control. Also used to master a live catch which personally, is one of my favorite things to do.

    #3 5 months ago

    Harder is just the leftover effect of hitting the flipper faster than normal.

    April_Wine_-_Harder_..._Faster (resized).jpg
    #4 5 months ago

    Helps you get to the tilt, much faster.

    #5 5 months ago

    Softer/shorter makes sense, since im also using this sometimes to controll the ball.
    This also makes mechanically sense to me since you just tap the ball shortly.
    But how do you explain faster/harder mechanically? Isn't this just a on/off switch?

    #6 5 months ago

    Yes, it's just an on and off switch. Difference is in your head. Pushing a button harder wont give it more power as a leaf switch doesn't know the difference between hard and soft. Once the path is closed its closed.

    The only difference is barely making contact for a split second for a tap pass or fluttering the flipper. That's just turning the coil on and off faster. It's not doing that because you pushed it softer, just because the coil was only engaged for so long.

    #7 5 months ago

    When you hit the button harder you are also nudging the machine which can and does affect the ball, and this can help with cradle catches etc because you are turning vertical to inertia into horizontal inertia or in other words taking some of the piss out of the ball which helps you catch it. So whatever affects on that ball it all has to do with the nudging force on the machine and nothing to do how hard the button is pressed.

    #8 5 months ago
    Quoted from Prodoshi:

    Softer/shorter makes sense, since im also using this sometimes to controll the ball.
    This also makes mechanically sense to me since you just tap the ball shortly.
    But how do you explain faster/harder mechanically? Isn't this just a on/off switch?

    Yes it’s either on or off. You can do taps so that the flipper does get the full power, but you can’t increase the strength past full power.

    #9 5 months ago

    Depending on the way the flipper button switches (leaf only) are configured on your game, pressing the buttons very hard may actually result in a weaker flip, due to leaf blade bounce cutting the flipper power in tiny intervals. I've seen games with old/weak flippers to begin with, in which pressing the button softly will get a ball all the way up a ramp, while pressing it hard will not.

    #10 5 months ago

    thats interesting, thanks.
    I wasnt sure if the EOS has something to do with it, since i saw some strange behaving flippers always making perfect live catches. I thought the impact of the ball somehow breaks the EOS contact resulting in a smooth catch. So maybe on good working flippers a faster push into the button could also result in a stronger up-flip because of the 2-step design with the EOS.

    A little bit OT here... how it comes that i have more ball controll on my old williams 1987 "fire" pin than on modern sterns? if i release the button on the old machine, the flipper will drop instantly. On the newer stern games there seems to be a little delay until the flipper drops, which makes ball control harder and more frustrating. If i'm fast, i can lift off my whole hand for a quick moment and push the button again, and the flipper didnt go down in between. I did inspect the switch of the button during this test and its definitely disconected for a moment. Is this a software thing? Or can i finetune this?

    #11 5 months ago

    It’s all dependent upon the flipper switch adjustment.

    #12 5 months ago
    Quoted from Prodoshi:

    Hello,
    hitting the buttons harder seems to help for me in some situation (not talking about slap saves),
    and I want to understand why. Especially when trying to livecatch it helps. But the only reason I
    can think of, is the change in timing, because it shouldn't affect the flippers mechanically, since
    you can't increase flipper power with harder hits? You can hit harder with additional nudging of course.
    So why do you hit harder sometimes or what do you know about it?

    Hitting the flippers harder has no effect or difference it’s a mind thing

    #13 5 months ago
    Quoted from Prodoshi:

    A little bit OT here... how it comes that i have more ball controll on my old williams 1987 "fire" pin than on modern sterns? if i release the button on the old machine, the flipper will drop instantly. On the newer stern games there seems to be a little delay until the flipper drops, which makes ball control harder and more frustrating. If i'm fast, i can lift off my whole hand for a quick moment and push the button again, and the flipper didnt go down in between. I did inspect the switch of the button during this test and its definitely disconected for a moment. Is this a software thing? Or can i finetune this?

    Somebody who has worked on actual Sterns can correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume Stern uses computer-controlled flippers, which means they are not directly connected to the switches. When a signal is received that the switch has closed, the computer turns on the particular driver transistor that controls the associated flipper(s). My guess is that they are programmed so a certain period of time must have elapsed with no switch connection before the computer will turn off the driver and thus lower the flipper. Presumably this is done to mitigate the effect of a not-quite-perfect switch contact. Not sure if this is adjustable or just the way it is on those games.

    (Source: I built my own game with electronically-controlled flippers, and they worked exactly like that until I revised the software and hardware design.)

    #14 5 months ago

    I had been getting a pain in my right lower side ribcage that has been coming and going over the last few months. I was hoping it wasn't cancer or something like that. I finally figured out it was from hitting the jump ramp on No Fear and I had been putting my whole body into it. I changed my approach and the pain went away and can now hit even more jumps in a row.

    So in short, no.

    Same thing happened to my left index finger from too much Tron and Twister when I owned them. A big knot on my flipper finger which has long since healed and gone away. I swear that John Borg must be a lefty.

    #15 5 months ago
    Quoted from Gornkleschnitzer:

    Somebody who has worked on actual Sterns can correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume Stern uses computer-controlled flippers, which means they are not directly connected to the switches. When a signal is received that the switch has closed, the computer turns on the particular driver transistor that controls the associated flipper(s). My guess is that they are programmed so a certain period of time must have elapsed with no switch connection before the computer will turn off the driver and thus lower the flipper. Presumably this is done to mitigate the effect of a not-quite-perfect switch contact. Not sure if this is adjustable or just the way it is on those games.
    (Source: I built my own game with electronically-controlled flippers, and they worked exactly like that until I revised the software and hardware design.)

    Thats what i thought, because you can control the coil strength via the software and there are even modes which switches flipper sides, so it has to run through some kind of software. Thank you for the insight.

    Quoted from o-din:

    I had been getting a pain in my right lower side ribcage that has been coming and going over the last few months. I was hoping it wasn't cancer or something like that. I finally figured out it was from hitting the jump ramp on No Fear and I had been putting my whole body into it. I changed my approach and the pain went away and can now hit even more jumps in a row.
    So in short, no.
    Same thing happened to my left index finger from too much Tron and Twister when I owned them. A big knot on my flipper finger which has long since healed and gone away. I swear that John Borg must be a lefty.

    nice to hear i'm not the only one with such problems, i get numb fingers when hitting too often and hard- carpal tunnel like.
    so i guess i have to learn being less emotional, especially in multiball modes

    #16 5 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    It’s all dependent upon the flipper switch adjustment.

    To expand on this for you. If the leaf switches are real close together very little movement is needed to activate. Further apart the more movement needed. The reason you feel your stern is delayed in dropping is because they are normally pretty tight from the factory so they dont disengage until almost the whole button is out again.

    I personally set mine as close to middle of stroke activation as possible. Helps with the feel for me.

    #17 5 months ago
    Quoted from Prodoshi:

    thats interesting, thanks.
    I wasnt sure if the EOS has something to do with it, since i saw some strange behaving flippers always making perfect live catches. I thought the impact of the ball somehow breaks the EOS contact resulting in a smooth catch. So maybe on good working flippers a faster push into the button could also result in a stronger up-flip because of the 2-step design with the EOS.
    A little bit OT here... how it comes that i have more ball controll on my old williams 1987 "fire" pin than on modern sterns? if i release the button on the old machine, the flipper will drop instantly. On the newer stern games there seems to be a little delay until the flipper drops, which makes ball control harder and more frustrating. If i'm fast, i can lift off my whole hand for a quick moment and push the button again, and the flipper didnt go down in between. I did inspect the switch of the button during this test and its definitely disconected for a moment. Is this a software thing? Or can i finetune this?

    For live catches. I find flipper mech healthy makes the biggest difference for me. A slight worn mech is easier, to me, as it give some cushion/play for imperfections.

    EOS are used but more in EM games for power.

    -2
    #18 5 months ago

    Yes, pressing the buttons harder does help, but not in the way of making the flipper flip harder. It is more likely to make an accurate shot if you press harder/faster on the button. I used to play trumpet and it is the same concept. For particularly fast/difficult passages it is better to press the valves harder to be more accurate.

    I've been in tournaments before where I've overheard comments about the noise I make when flipping, but I'm usually kicking their ass. LOL

    #19 5 months ago
    Quoted from 85vett:

    To expand on this for you. If the leaf switches are real close together very little movement is needed to activate. Further apart the more movement needed. The reason you feel your stern is delayed in dropping is because they are normally pretty tight from the factory so they dont disengage until almost the whole button is out again.
    I personally set mine as close to middle of stroke activation as possible. Helps with the feel for me.

    Hmm, I dont think you are right here. I understand the leaf switches and I tweaked them too to my liking. I also understand your point, but i tried this out already. Gornkleschnitzer explained it well @ post #13. It does not matter where the contact is made, the flipper stays up for some extra time when the contact already is broken. Also something Jack Danger mentioned on a live stream "I swear I took my hands off completely"...(Jack tried to cradle the ball, but it moonwalked up the flipper and Jack tried to save it with a flick pass, but the flipper did not move and stayed up until the ball drained).

    #20 5 months ago
    Quoted from Prodoshi:

    Hmm, I dont think you are right here. I understand the leaf switches and I tweaked them too to my liking. I also understand your point, but i tried this out already. Gornkleschnitzer explained it well @ post #13. It does not matter where the contact is made, the flipper stays up for some extra time when the contact already is broken. Also something Jack Danger mentioned it on a live stream "I swear I took my hands off completely"...(Jack tried to cradle the ball, but it moonwalked up the flipper and Jack tried to save it with a flick pass, but the flipper did not move and stayed up until the ball drained).

    You want the flipper to "un-flip" as soon as the button has begun to move outward. This can be adjusted whether it is an opto or a leaf switch. If they are not adjusted properly, it will not "un-flip" until the button is almost all the way out. This causes all kinds of problems with accuracy including including letting the ball roll off the flipper unintentionally.

    #21 5 months ago

    You repeat 85vett's post which i allready commented.
    To repeat myself from an earlier post:

    Quoted from Prodoshi:

    ...i release the button on the old machine, the flipper will drop instantly. On the newer stern games there seems to be a little delay until the flipper drops, which makes ball control harder and more frustrating. If i'm fast, i can lift off my whole hand for a quick moment and push the button again, and the flipper didnt go down in between. I did inspect the switch of the button during this test and its definitely disconected for a moment.

    I do understand that the leaf switch is adjustable, i set mine on half way for contact.

    watch the last flip release in slomo:

    #22 5 months ago

    Adjust the switch to it opens sooner. Test with the playfield up so you can be sure it’s opening earlier.

    #23 5 months ago

    Are you sure your coil stop isn't mashed?

    #24 5 months ago
    Quoted from Prodoshi:

    You repeat 85vett's post which i allready commented.
    To repeat myself from an earlier post:

    I do understand that the leaf switch is adjustable, i set mine on half way for contact.
    watch the last flip release in slomo:

    Dont normally just got out and say it but I'm sorry, you are wrong. It does make difference. Tight switch the less travel needed to activate PLUS the flipper button still goes to max throw (unless you are staging). It takes more of a release to then deactivate the flipper thus making it "feel" slower to disengage and "feel" faster to engage. Visa versa for or wider set switch.

    This is actually why you see a lot of the top players messing with the flippers before playing there ball. They are finding the activation and release points. Especially important with staging, tip over passes, tap passes, etc.

    #25 5 months ago
    Quoted from LOTR_breath:

    Yes, pressing the buttons harder does help, but not in the way of making the flipper flip harder. It is more likely to make an accurate shot if you press harder/faster on the button. I used to play trumpet and it is the same concept. For particularly fast/difficult passages it is better to press the valves harder to be more accurate.
    I've been in tournaments before where I've overheard comments about the noise I make when flipping, but I'm usually kicking their ass. LOL

    Interesting. I played as well a little over a decade. I was also told the opposite as a lighter touch allows for faster release. Not saying your way of playing was inferior or wrong, just was way surprised to hear that. I dont think I've really ever noticed professional trumpet players that had heavy hands.

    #26 5 months ago

    Depending on how you hit the flipper, it absolutely can add strength to the flip. A good example is a slap-save-like flip, where your hand really nudges the machine simultaneously with the flip. By basic physics principles, some of the momentum is transferred to the flipper and the ball. If for simplicity we treat the playfield somewhat artificially as 2D, the flip/slap is in the x-axis (horizontal), the flipper itself moves on an arc through x/y space and the ball is usually ascending the playfield on a diagonal (x/y), so it squires the x-axis component of any transferred energy/momentum. How much of a difference does this make, by percentage velocity added? I don't know. But having played enough crappy bar pinball setups, I have many times only been able to get a ball up a ramp with a good hard slap!

    #27 5 months ago
    Quoted from Prodoshi:

    Hello,
    hitting the buttons harder seems to help for me in some situation (not talking about slap saves),
    and I want to understand why. Especially when trying to livecatch it helps. But the only reason I
    can think of, is the change in timing, because it shouldn't affect the flippers mechanically, since
    you can't increase flipper power with harder hits? You can hit harder with additional nudging of course.
    So why do you hit harder sometimes or what do you know about it?

    Depending on how you hit the flipper, it absolutely can add strength to the flip. A good example is a slap-save-like flip, where your hand really nudges the machine simultaneously with the flip. By basic physics principles, some of the momentum is transferred to the flipper and the ball. If for simplicity we treat the playfield somewhat artificially as 2D, the flip/slap is in the x-axis (horizontal), the flipper itself moves on an arc through x/y space and the ball is usually ascending the playfield on a diagonal (x/y), so it acquires the x-axis component of any transferred energy/momentum. How much of a difference does this make, by percentage velocity added? I don't know. But having played enough crappy bar pinball setups, I have many times only been able to get a ball up a ramp with a good hard slap!

    #28 5 months ago

    The flipper did NOTHING different in that example. The extra force is from the added inertia from you moving the game.

    Let me put it another way. The flipper coil will only pull the shaft so fast. It wont go slower or faster based off how you press the button.

    Think it's time to drain this thread. Was trying to help but now it feels like yall are just messing with me now....

    #29 5 months ago
    Quoted from 85vett:

    The flipper did NOTHING different in that example. The extra force is from the added inertia from you moving the game.
    Let me put it another way. The flipper coil will only pull the shaft so fast. It wont go slower or faster based off how you press the button.
    Think it's time to drain this thread. Was trying to help but now it feels like yall are just messing with me now....

    You misunderstand.

    #30 5 months ago

    I PLAY WITH A 3LB HAMMER IN EACH HAND YOU'RE ALL PUSSIES.

    #31 5 months ago

    I'm sorry i didn't want to cause trouble, I just wanted to understand the physics of the flippers and gameplay.
    I will sum it up to to avoid missunderstandings.

    So most of you think I have to adjust the switch so it opens sooner. And most of you agree that a hard slap causes harder or accurater shots, but not because the coil hits harder, it comes from table movement. There is just #13 poster here, who says the slight flipper drop delay comes from the software (but all of you ignore that post, ok). And there is my not scientific proof image, where the hand is clearly away from the button but the flipper is still up. So I will mess with my switches again and do more testing. (My coil stops are ok!)

    Thank you all.

    cheers
    Unbenannt (resized).png

    #32 5 months ago

    You have a binding issue or something else contributing. You’re making this so much harder than it needs to be. Haha.

    #33 5 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    You have a binding issue or something else contributing. You’re making this so much harder than it needs to be. Haha.

    Hehe this happenes alot to me, analytical brains
    However, I still think its software related. I compared GB again to my williams "fire". Both switches set at the exact same contact point at about 20% of the way. The flippers of both sides of the GB doing the same thing. Flippers where rebuild some months ago and there is this this statement from Jack Danger regarding the same problem with newer stern games.

    Here is a video of the switch, it seperates while not dropping the flippers:

    #34 5 months ago

    You’re comparing completely different games. Test this with the playfield propped so you can see the mechs working compare to left flipper, etc.

    #35 5 months ago

    Concentrate on your game only not others’ games.

    #36 5 months ago
    Quoted from Gryszzz:

    I PLAY WITH A 3LB HAMMER IN EACH HAND YOU'RE ALL PUSSIES.

    Play with sledgehammers and learn to body check the coindoor at the same time.
    Pretty soon you can continue to play, even though the game says tilt.

    #37 5 months ago

    I was able to replicate this on my Tron which has freshly rebuilt flippers. There is a fraction of a second delay from the time the switch opens until the flipper drops. But when your playing, your brain accounts for this delay and you learn the exact timing to make the shot. I don't know if it is software, or inherent to the mechanics or electronics, but the delay is there. Probably on the order of 1 or 2 tenths of a second.

    #38 5 months ago
    Quoted from LOTR_breath:

    I was able to replicate this on my Tron which has freshly rebuilt flippers. There is a fraction of a second delay from the time the switch opens until the flipper drops. But when your playing, your brain accounts for this delay and you learn the exact timing to make the shot. I don't know if it is software, or inherent to the mechanics or electronics, but the delay is there. Probably on the order of 1 or 2 tenths of a second.

    Yeah. My point is account for it by having the switch open as early as possible and don’t take your fingers all the way off the button. With practice you can tip pass on any game.

    #39 5 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Yeah. My point is account for it by having the switch open as early as possible and don’t take your fingers all the way off the button. With practice you can tip pass on any game.

    Yep, I agree. I've had a few B/W games with opto flipper switches that needed major adjustment. I had to put washers between the cabinet and actuator to effectively unblock the photo-interupter sooner. Works like a charm!

    #40 5 months ago
    Quoted from LOTR_breath:

    I was able to replicate this on my Tron which has freshly rebuilt flippers. There is a fraction of a second delay from the time the switch opens until the flipper drops. But when your playing, your brain accounts for this delay and you learn the exact timing to make the shot. I don't know if it is software, or inherent to the mechanics or electronics, but the delay is there. Probably on the order of 1 or 2 tenths of a second.

    Major differences between how a flipper goes up and down. Going down is done via a spring. So in order for the flipper to go down the leaf separates, the CPU kills the power to the coil, coil disengages, spring pulls the flipper down. The delay is time for coil to disengage and the spring to overcome the friction needed to move the plunger. Its minute (on a properly tuned game) but there.

    In modern games the flipper is controlled by the CPU activated by the leaf switch. Just 1 more reason why hitting hard wont give more power.

    #41 5 months ago
    Quoted from LOTR_breath:

    I was able to replicate this on my Tron which has freshly rebuilt flippers. There is a fraction of a second delay from the time the switch opens until the flipper drops. But when your playing, your brain accounts for this delay and you learn the exact timing to make the shot. I don't know if it is software, or inherent to the mechanics or electronics, but the delay is there. Probably on the order of 1 or 2 tenths of a second.

    thanks for replicating this for me! I learned to compensate for this, but sometimes i still get drains because the tip pass was just a littlebit too late, or it did not happen at all, because the flipper didn't drop. And by "tip pass" i'm talking about a last second save, where the ball unpredictably moonwalks up the cradleing flipper heading to the center drain. Probably I could gain some miliseconds reaction time by adjusting the switch, but im not sure if i would do me a favour, since most pins on location seems to be set quite early with the switch. But as mentioned earlier, good players are able to adapt.

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