Does High Tap Exist on System 11 games?

(Topic ID: 231996)

Does High Tap Exist on System 11 games?


By darcangeloel

3 months ago



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  • Latest reply 3 months ago by snyper2099
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There are 77 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 3 months ago

This will be an odd question but given my recent experience with a police force I am working on I wonder if this is a thing. All the coils seem to be insanely strong. I rebuilt the flippers ala Vid's style (Side return springs and full rebuild kit) and actually returned the coils to what the factory put in the game FL-1130's (They had much stronger in there although god knows why). However both flippers are insanely strong (They were this way even before I rebuilt them). The other odd things though is that all the coils from the ball kick out that kicks so hard it hits the metal side rail and bounces back into the trough to the pop bumpers and kickouts that shoot the ball around at light speed. Generally I would count my lucky stars that the game is playing so strong but it causes game play issues and from the person who I bought the game from you can tell it has been a long term issue as a bunch of the plastics are busted up. So... when researching this kind of sounds like games that have been put on high tap but as I understand it that was more of an EM thing right? IE does that exist for Williams System 11 games? Any thoughts or comments are greatly appreciated. (Also as a note when I hit the center ramp either with the left or right flipper both of them make the ball ramp off the ramp into the pops (IE way too fast). I'd "fixed" that for now by making the flipper EOS open super early to decrease the power and this has helped but isn't the true fix here. Also to decrease the power on the ball kick out I added a spring to the plastic center on the coil which has made it slightly weak enough to not kick the ball so hard it goes back into the trough. Also game has been leveled and is at 6.0 degrees pitch.

#2 3 months ago
Quoted from darcangeloel:

sounds like games that have been put on high tap but as I understand it that was more of an EM thing right? IE does that exist for Williams System 11 games?

Not that I'm aware of.

Have you measured the voltages on the aux power driver board or at the transformer?

#3 3 months ago

High tap is a bit different on EMs than SS, but there is still something like it. There should be a plug going into your transformer with some wires looped through it. That can be jumpered in different ways to account for different input voltages (115v, 120v, 220v, etc). It's possible it's jumpered for 115 instead of 120, so everything is stronger to compensate.

Check the power wiring diagram in the manual, it has a listing of different jumpers.

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#4 3 months ago

This is exactly what I was wondering. Normally I wouldn't think twice about it but it kind of makes the game super hard to play and stuff keeps getting broken. I'll check this out and report back. Dumb question, why would 115 be stronger than 120? I can also check the coil voltages as well as that seems like a good place as well. Thanks for all the info!

Quoted from zacaj:

High tap is a bit different on EMs than SS, but there is still something like it. There should be a plug going into your transformer with some wires looped through it. That can be jumpered in different ways to account for different input voltages (115v, 120v, 220v, etc). It's possible it's jumpered for 115 instead of 120, so everything is stronger to compensate.
Check the power wiring diagram in the manual, it has a listing of different jumpers.
[quoted image]

#5 3 months ago
Quoted from darcangeloel:

This is exactly what I was wondering. Normally I wouldn't think twice about it but it kind of makes the game super hard to play and stuff keeps getting broken. I'll check this out and report back. Dumb question, why would 115 be stronger than 120? I can also check the coil voltages as well as that seems like a good place as well. Thanks for all the info!

115 is weaker than 120, so they crank up the voltages internally to compensate

#6 3 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

115 is weaker than 120, so they crank up the voltages internally to compensate

Ah got ya yeah I was confused I think the numbers were backwards it makes sense though now.

#7 3 months ago

So I am looking at the manual but I'm not seeing where this is listed? IE I'm not seeing anything labeled for setting the transformer jumpers.

https://www.ipdb.org/files/1841/Williams_1989_Police_Force_Operations_Manual.pdf

#8 3 months ago
Quoted from darcangeloel:

So I am looking at the manual but I'm not seeing where this is listed? IE I'm not seeing anything labeled for setting the transformer jumpers.
https://www.ipdb.org/files/1841/Williams_1989_Police_Force_Operations_Manual.pdf

Um, it's right there on page #94

#9 3 months ago

Derp, hahaha ty! I don't see a configuration for 120v? Only 115 or 230? I can check to make sure the jumpers are correct for 115 and report back but I wonder how they would have set it for 120v? Just jumpering in an extra wire I guess?

Quoted from snyper2099:

Um, it's right there on page #94

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#10 3 months ago

I would start by just seeing if your jumperings match any of the 4 patterns listed

#11 3 months ago

Looks like it's wired for 115 it matches the manual. Pin 1 is white pin 7 is black 2 goes to 3 and 7 to 8 both are black wires. If I'm reading the chart about right that should be 115?

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#12 3 months ago

Other side of that plug

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#13 3 months ago
Quoted from darcangeloel:

Pin 1 is white pin 7 is black 2 goes to 3 and 7 to 8 both are black wires. If I'm reading the chart about right that should be 115?

What you have is Black is on pin 1, 2 and 3.
White is on pin 7 and black is on pin 8 and 9.
This is wired for 115 volt.

If you want to high tap it for 103.5 volts you move one black jumper from 8 and 9 to 6 and 5.
Then move white from pin 7 to pin 4.

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#14 3 months ago

I'm confused high tap means stronger right? So if the voltage is lower (103.5) how would that be stronger if I'm currently on 115? Or do you mean it might be worth trying the 103.5 in order to see if it helps make the coils a bit weaker? Just trying to confirm, thanks for the help!

Quoted from GRUMPY:

What you have is Black is on pin 1, 2 and 3.
White is on pin 7 and black is on pin 8 and 9.
This is wired for 115 volt.
If you want to high tap it for 103.5 volts you move one black jumper from 8 and 9 to 6 and 5.
Then move white from pin 7 to pin 4.
[quoted image]

#15 3 months ago

Actually I think that was explained earlier and that if the input voltage is lower they crank up the voltages to compensate? Weird stuff.

#16 3 months ago
Quoted from darcangeloel:

So if the voltage is lower (103.5) how would that be stronger

This is used for input voltage of 103.5. A lot of arcades ran too many games on each breaker causing a low voltage to all the games. They would used this setting to boost the out voltage of the transformer 11%. But it you have good input voltage (115) and use this setting you will still boost the output voltage 11%. So now a input of 115 would be output of 127.65 volts. But this raises everything in the game so unreg. 12 which is usually 14 would be 15.54 volts.

#17 3 months ago

Okay got ya, so if I do have a solid 115 coming in then it would actually be even worse if I switched to 103.5 as it would make the voltage 11% higher throughout the game? >.< I guess next is to start taking voltage readings at the coils. I'll do that today and report back. Thank you guys again!

Quoted from GRUMPY:

This is used for input voltage of 103.5. A lot of arcades ran too many games on each breaker causing a low voltage to all the games. They would used this setting to boost the out voltage of the transformer 11%. But it you have good input voltage (115) and use this setting you will still boost the output voltage 11%. So now a input of 115 would be output of 127.65 volts. But this raises everything in the game so unreg. 12 which is usually 14 would be 15.54 volts.

#18 3 months ago

Normally 25 volt coils will read @ 36-39 volts DC. 50 volt coils will read @ 65-69 volts DC. There are much better ways to fix a low voltage issues then high tapping the transformer. For EMs this is a quick fix to make it snappier, but they didn't have electronics to mess up.

#19 3 months ago

His problem is that there is TOO much power at the coils.

I've just followed along until now but you will need to provide some additional information to resolve this, using a voltmeter. Check for DC voltages at the lugs of all coils. Put GND black lead on the side rail of the cabinet and put the RED lead on each coil lug in the game.
What DC readings did you get?

Check your AC WALL VOLTAGE at the plug.
What AC reading did you get?

Confirm you are not using an extension cord, power regulator, or power inverter/generator.
No?

Additionally, confirm that all your boards are grounded and that the ground braid screw in the bottom of the head is actually connecting the lower and upper cabinets with your METER.
Yes?

#20 3 months ago

Got it! Ty for the instructions I know going back and forth on this can be annoying when I ask weird bit size questions hahaha. I will do those exact tests and report back. Also just to be clear the issue is too much power at the coils, like everything seems to be over powered. (Flippers, kick outs, shoot lane eject or kick out). I'm sometimes verbose in my writing my apologies for any confusion on that

Quoted from snyper2099:

His problem is that there is TOO much power at the coils.
I've just followed along until now but you will need to provide some additional information to resolve this, using a voltmeter. Check for DC voltages at the lugs of all coils. Put GND black lead on the side rail of the cabinet and put the RED lead on each coil lug in the game.
What reading do you get?
Check your AC WALL VOLTAGE at the plug.
What reading do you get?
Confirm you are not using an extension cord, power regulator, or power inverter/generator.
No?
Additionally, confirm that your boards are grounded and that the ground braid screw in the bottom of the head is actually connecting the lower and upper cabinet.
Yes?

#21 3 months ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

His problem is that there is TOO much power at the coils.

I was just answering his questions about the high tapping. He seemed to think if he selected the 103.5 settings that he would lower the voltage to 103.5 instead of 115. I just pointed out that he would just raise it even higher then it was by selecting the 103.5 setting. I also gave him normal average voltages for a system 11 game to compare as some people think 39 volts on a 25 volt line is way out of specs. Sorry if I didn't explain myself correctly, my bad.

#22 3 months ago

No worries, I understand and I thought you may have just overlooked the first post.

I have my suspicions about the actual problem but want to confirm AC power at the source and the coils first.

Another thing I would confirm is that all of your fuses in the game are of the proper rating and none are bypassed.

#23 3 months ago

Okay I took some readings see below

Left flipper down 75 dc all lugs
Right flipper down 75 dc all lugs
Left flipper flipped 66.8 dc two lugs
Right flipper flipped 66.2 dc two lugs
Ball eject for shooter lane 37.5 dc
Right sling 75 dc
Left sling 75 dc

As a rule from now on when I buy a machine I'm pulling every fuse. Holy shit people had this over fused badly

On the aux power board
F3 5A installed should be 2.5
F4 5A installed should be 2
F5 5A installed should be 2
F6 5A installed should be 2
F7 7A installed should be 4

Also F3 on the interconnect board had a 7 amp installed should be 5

I haven't replaced any fuses yet as my guess is someone did this for a "reason" and I assume that just putting in the right fuses and firing up the game will just cause them to pop.

#24 3 months ago

Does anyone see anything odd about the way the aux power board and power supply board are wired (Nothing jumps out at me but who knows).

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#25 3 months ago
Quoted from darcangeloel:

As a rule from now on when I buy a machine I'm pulling every fuse.

I do this with EVERY machine I get. I don't care if it came from a high end collector or was a container re-import. "Hacks" are not exclusive to the Europeans. I've seen the same stuff in "collector quality" machines.

Quoted from darcangeloel:

I haven't replaced any fuses yet as my guess is someone did this for a "reason" and I assume that just putting in the right fuses and firing up the game will just cause them to pop.

I think the more common reason is the fuse used is the easiest and quickest one that the person had on-hand to make the machine work again.

Quoted from darcangeloel:

Does anyone see anything odd about the way the aux power board and power supply board are wired (Nothing jumps out at me but who knows).

On brief inspection ... the wiring looks factory to me. I only initially suspect non-factory wiring (prior re-work). What concerns my (not-so) discerning eye is something that looks like electrolyte leakage on the power supply board from the radial capacitor at C9.

#26 3 months ago

I replaced all the fuses with the correct values everything seems to be working just fine. Still insanely strong. Regarding C9 for some reason I just figured that was flux. Do you think it isn't? I have trouble telling the difference on some of this stuff. Also the slingshots on both sides seem to be way too high right? Are those 50v coils? If not I'm wondering why they haven't burned up.

#27 3 months ago

Slingshots should be 50v according to manual. Pops should be 25

#28 3 months ago

Gotcha, is 75 too high though? I wonder if some how a 25v has gotten i the mix somehow?

#29 3 months ago

Check the ac voltage going into the rectifiers, see if it's also 60+ or if it's lower

#30 3 months ago
Quoted from darcangeloel:

Gotcha, is 75 too high though? I wonder if some how a 25v has gotten i the mix somehow?

What does you wall outlet read? Most likely a tad bit higher than it should be. I'm guessing @ 122-125 volts AC.

#31 3 months ago

Someone has been busy on the power supply but not in a good way. The IC voltage regulator has been abused by a soldering iron.

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#32 3 months ago

Is c9 on the psu the right capacitance?

#33 3 months ago

Yeah I'm thinking that board is the issue >.< extra trace lifting. glad that wasn't me hahaha. Although in my time I have lifted a fair amount of traces but yeah in this case someone straight up used the wrong tool for the job. My guess would be a pencil iron from Radio shack.

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#34 3 months ago

Voltage at the outlet is 124 i checked all the outlets in that room and they are the same one was around 123.6 but otherwise exactly the same. All the machines are plugged into those same outlets and they've all played normally. Question though is that too high? I checked other outlets around my house and they all seem to be around that.

Question if that ic that someone soldered(burned) into the power board could that cause this issue?

I pulled the aux power board and it is totally untouched like remarkably so. I'm pretty sure the issue isn't there unless something has just failed

#35 3 months ago

I doubt the chip would cause it

#36 3 months ago

I’m putting my money on a bad rectification on the AUX board. Can you test all the diodes and large transistors with a voltmeter on the AUX board?

#37 3 months ago

Interesting I can give that a shot.

Quoted from snyper2099:

I’m putting my money on a bad rectification on the AUX board. Can you test all the diodes and large transistors with a voltmeter on the AUX board?

#38 3 months ago
Quoted from darcangeloel:

Question if that ic that someone soldered(burned) into the power board could that cause this issue?

No!

Quoted from darcangeloel:

Voltage at the outlet is 124

This is your issue, it's a bit high.

Quoted from darcangeloel:

Gotcha, is 75 too high though?

Yea it's @ 10 volts higher than normal. Going to have to increase the EOS gap for sure.

#39 3 months ago

Interesting, dumb question is there anything I can do to get the voltage going to the machine a bit closer to the voltage it needs? Almost like a power cleaner if you will hahaha. Is this because the game is wired for 115 and yet im putting in 124? I guess input voltage is roughly 7% or so higher? Seems odd though so many other games in that same room have never had that issue.

Quoted from GRUMPY:

No!

This is your issue, it's a bit high.

Yea it's @ 10 volts higher than normal. Going to have to increase the EOS gap for sure.

#40 3 months ago

Perhaps a UPS could do the job? I think those output at 120 wouldn't that still be too high?

#41 3 months ago
Quoted from darcangeloel:

Is this because the game is wired for 115 and yet im putting in 124? I guess input voltage is roughly 7% or so higher?

Yep.

Quoted from darcangeloel:

Seems odd though so many other games in that same room have never had that issue.

Take a voltage reading from the Earthshaker or the Black knight 2000, I would bet you get very similar readings.

Quoted from darcangeloel:

is there anything I can do to get the voltage going to the machine a bit closer

A power conditioner can correct this but are very costly. You can put all your pins on one breaker and turn all on together to try and drop the voltage.

#43 3 months ago

Eddie Van Halen swears by Variacs!

That’s how he got his famous “brown sound” - he ran his Marshall tube heads through the variac and cranked the voltage, and overdrove the tubes to distort them more.

rd

#44 3 months ago

Could this do the trick ? It has a switch that sets it to 110, 120, or 127. IE if I set it to 110 would that be too low hahaha. Looks like it's rated for 10 amps so ahould be fine there. Most of my games never seem to go much over three amps (I like leds )

amazon.com link »

blockquote cite="#4746488">This is a cheaper solution.
https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&amp;ai=DChcSEwi-oteSj7DfAhULPGkKHY9SDPAYABAYGgJpcQ&amp;ohost=www.google.com&amp;cid=CAESEeD2ugIozqghqC-My8mzJuNu&amp;sig=AOD64_0TipCdeFrMX9RgNbZ2ZVGuZfnn4w&amp;ctype=5&amp;q=&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj9s9KSj7DfAhUo2IMKHeFrBuMQ9aACCEM&amp;adurl=

#45 3 months ago

I also wonder about ohms law. Voltage = Amps times Ohms. I can't remember if that is a DC only thing but if it isn't and my voltage is increased then my current (Amps) must be increased as the resistance will have remained the same right? Ie I didn't add any new coils or anything else to use (Resist the power). So if amperage is truly increase in each of the circuits then why wouldn't my fuses be popping all the time? I ordered a Variac off of Amazon (Basically looks exactly like what grumpy suggested) but I'm wondering if that is going to actually fix the issue. I'm also surprised more people don't have that issue (Or perhaps they do but just don't know about it?).

#46 3 months ago

eh looks like impedances factor into AC making this shit extra complicated. I'm gonna go with grumpy's idea and see if that fixes it. IF so I guess all my games are going on these hahaha. Ty I will report back once I give it a shot!

#47 3 months ago

Ohm's law works for both AC and DC circuits. If the load your pinball machine stays the same and the voltage goes up, then the current will decrease.

#48 3 months ago
Quoted from darcangeloel:

eh looks like impedances factor into AC making this shit extra complicated. I'm gonna go with grumpy's idea and see if that fixes it. IF so I guess all my games are going on these hahaha. Ty I will report back once I give it a shot!

I do not think this is the source of your problem and I do not believe it will resolve your problem. 115-125VAC is within the normal acceptable ranges for US homes. None of your other games are affected, and you have confirmed the same source AC voltage on those machines.

Also, how did the game act this way when it was at the guy's house you bought it from? He said it had the same problems when he owned it.

Reducing the line voltage to a point where the game's solenoids work properly (well below 115VAC) will reduce the other voltages in the machine and is likely cause other problems like game resets. (a low 5VDC condition)

I guess for $60+shipping, at least you will have a cool toy to try out on stuff.

#49 3 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Ohm's law works for both AC and DC circuits. If the load your pinball machine stays the same and the voltage goes up, then the current will decrease.

Wait am I figuring this wrong? Wouldn't amps go up?

V = A X O

So V = Voltage A = Amps and O = Ohms (Resistance)

So lets say for 120 and lets say the game has 20 ohms? It would draw 6 amps right 120 = 6 * 20

Lets also say if the voltage goes up to 125 and is resistance is still the same at 20 ohms this would make the machine draw 6.25 amps right? 125 = 6.25 * 20

So it sounds like if voltage increases and resistance stays the same the amperage would increase right?

#50 3 months ago

This is what puzzles me as well. All the other games don't act that way and they are using the same source as is everything else in the house (Everything runs nicely my house is less than 40 years old (built in 1980 something hahaha) my point being most electrical standards would have been the same for the time these games came out (My system is all system 11) so unless someone screwed it up and only one pinball machine is having the issue then it seems odd to me as well. I'm still thinking about the Variac as I'm sure if it doesn't help it would for other projects. However I do agree that it would be surprising if that just resolved the issue.

However to grumpy's point I took readings off my ES and BK2K and both of those report back around 75 DC on the coils (For 50V coils) so it seems to be somewhat high on all my games but only police force shows that in the performance of the game.

I'm going to turn and turn on all the games and see if I can get the line voltage to drop a bit. If that helps then we'll know on way or the other (Well assuming it drops enough hahaha).

I wonder if instead of testing the transistors or diodes on that aux power supply if I should test the output at the pins of that board and see if they are too high. Or would that just be a waste of time as we know what is getting to the coils is already too high >.<

Quoted from snyper2099:

I do not think this is the source of your problem and I do not believe it will resolve your problem. 115-125VAC is within the normal acceptable ranges for US homes. None of your other games are affected, and you have confirmed the same source AC voltage on those machines.
Also, how did the game act this way when it was at the guy's house you bought it from? He said it had the same problems when he owned it.
Reducing the line voltage to a point where the game's solenoids work properly (well below 115VAC) will reduce the other voltages in the machine and is likely cause other problems like game resets. (a low 5VDC condition)
I guess for $60+shipping, at least you will have a cool toy to try out on stuff.

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