Does High Tap Exist on System 11 games?

(Topic ID: 231996)

Does High Tap Exist on System 11 games?


By darcangeloel

65 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 77 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 62 days ago by snyper2099
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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There are 77 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 63 days ago

Also, how did the game act this way when it was at the guy's house you bought it from? He said it had the same problems when he owned it. - That is a good question as well. I bought it via pinside not in person. In fact that was the first time I ever had a game shipped. The pinsider has been here a long time and has lots of good feedback. I messaged them to ask that question as it may have been that way when they had it as well and just never noticed (Or they got it as a project and never really played it much).

#52 63 days ago

Did you check if the caps on the PSU were properly specced?

#53 63 days ago

Did you read the voltages coming out of the transformer?

That’d be the second step - the first is the wall voltage and you did that.

rd

#54 63 days ago
Quoted from darcangeloel:

So it sounds like if voltage increases and resistance stays the same the amperage would increase right?

It would seem this way. But they are more thing involved here. If you use a 120 watt bulb at 120 volts it uses 1 amp of current (VxI=P) So now lets double the voltage to 240 volts and the current will drop by 1/2. 240 volts x .5 amps = 120 watts

pasted_image (resized).png
#55 63 days ago

On the other hand if you take a 120 watt bulb meant to operate on a 120 volts and raise the volts to 240 it will double the current for a split second until the filament burns out. This is because the bulb is now using 480 watts and designed for 120 watts.

#56 63 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Did you check if the caps on the PSU were properly specced?

I did not. For Christmas I'm getting a power supply board (already wrapped and the wife won't let me open early). So I figure perhaps I can change it and see if that resolves the issue?

#57 63 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

On the other hand if you take a 120 watt bulb meant to operate on a 120 volts and raise the volts to 240 it will double the current for a split second until the filament burns out. This is because the bulb is now using 480 watts and designed for 120 watts.

Math iz hard

I think I'm starting to get your point in this case the V= A *O matters less than what wattage is being used?

#58 63 days ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Did you read the voltages coming out of the transformer?
That’d be the second step - the first is the wall voltage and you did that.
rd

I have not and that is a good point. I'll put that on the to do list as well.

#59 63 days ago
Quoted from darcangeloel:

This is what puzzles me as well. All the other games don't act that way and they are using the same source as is everything else in the house (Everything runs nicely my house is less than 40 years old (built in 1980 something hahaha) my point being most electrical standards would have been the same for the time these games came out (My system is all system 11) so unless someone screwed it up and only one pinball machine is having the issue then it seems odd to me as well. I'm still thinking about the Variac as I'm sure if it doesn't help it would for other projects. However I do agree that it would be surprising if that just resolved the issue.
However to grumpy's point I took readings off my ES and BK2K and both of those report back around 75 DC on the coils (For 50V coils) so it seems to be somewhat high on all my games but only police force shows that in the performance of the game.
I'm going to turn and turn on all the games and see if I can get the line voltage to drop a bit. If that helps then we'll know on way or the other (Well assuming it drops enough hahaha).
I wonder if instead of testing the transistors or diodes on that aux power supply if I should test the output at the pins of that board and see if they are too high. Or would that just be a waste of time as we know what is getting to the coils is already too high >.<

There is more to it than just voltage. Voltage is only one piece of this equation.

Beyond a problem with the transformer, you likely have bad DC rectification on this game.

Take your AUX driver board out of Earthshaker and see if the problem still exists. If it does not, you can place the problem on the AUX driver board in PF causing this issue. Swapping boards is the cheapest and least technical way to test this.(Lower right board in the head.) The AUX board in both games is exactly the same and we've established your Earthshaker does not have this issue.

#60 63 days ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

Take your AUX driver board out of Earthshaker and see if the problem still exists.

He has higher than normal voltage on all his games that have a aux power supply.

#61 63 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

He has higher than normal voltage on all his games that have a aux power supply.

The Earthshaker does not have any problems. Also, the OP indicated that this Police Force had these same problems at the previous owner's house in his first post.

#62 63 days ago

He has 3 system 11B machines. All 3 machines have 75 volts on the 50 volt coils. All 3 machines have 124 volts going into them. Is this AC power within power company specs, yes but at it very highest limits. I would assume if he just rebuilt the flippers on Earthshaker they would seem overly strong too. When bridge rectifiers start going bad there efficiency will not go up it will go down. The same goes for the electrolytic cap in the circuit. There is nothing else involved in making the 50 volt signal.

#63 63 days ago

So you are saying the previous owner experienced these same problems because why again?

Seriously, it's more likely the wrong flipper coils are installed rather than two separate owners of this machine BOTH having too much power at their wall outlets.

Blindly throwing parts at the problem will not fix the issue with this machine.

Oh, and 75VDC is a fairly standard VDC reading for flipper coils in a system 11 games. Even for a game with WEAK FLIPPERS.

-->
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/taxi-flipper-weak

#64 63 days ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

Blindly throwing parts at the problem will not fix the issue with this machine

I haven't suggested throwing any parts at this machine. I have only answered questions and asked for voltage tests.

Quoted from snyper2099:

Oh, and 75VDC is a fairly standard VDC reading for flipper coils in a system 11 games.

If you believe this, then I challenge you to test your mousin around pin and post the results. Check wall outlet and coil voltage.

#65 63 days ago

Thanks again for all the posts and ideas. No objection to switching the earth shaker aux power board to the police force and retesting its worth a shot. Grumpy is correct on the ES. I haven't rebuilt the flippers on it yet. It is my long winter project (new pf plastics the works). So it is possible they could be slightly weaker but I'd be surprised as everything else seems to have very normal power on the es and bk2k.

I took readings at the transformer as follows

At the wall I have 124v
From pins 1 to 2 I have 95.9
From pins 3 to 5 I have 10.4
From pins 4 to 5 I have 10.4
From pins 9 to 10 I have 14.5
From pins 6 to 7 I have 31.0
From pins 11 to 12 I have 57.1

So the input voltage is about 7.25 % higher than what it is expecting at 115v

All of those pins coming off the transformer meet that difference pretty close except the 26 vac and 48 vac both of those are about 16% higher. See the picture below for my scribblings

Also the four yellow are 6.4v when they should be 5.9v so not too far off there.

15454296593844903929047620326209 (resized).jpg1545429678214850957464610953035 (resized).jpg
#66 63 days ago

The 26 and 48 volt lines don't have any load on them. If you retest the 48 volt while holding both flippers buttons you will find it closer to the 7%.

#67 63 days ago

Can you also check the flipper coils ohms on the power winding. Just curious to know if you have gotten mislabeled coils. Anything is possible.

#68 63 days ago

Also I took readings at the aux power supply

On the input side of the board I have

For J8 (AC)

Pin 1 31.8
Pin 2 31.8
Pin 3 31.1
Pin 4 31.1
Pin 5 KEY
Pin 6 57.2
Pin 7 57.2
Pin 8 58.5
Pin 9 58.5

On the output side (DC)

For J11
Pin 11 38.2
Pin 12 38.2
Pin 7 and 6 Ground
Pin 4 47.1
Pin 1 38.3

For J12
Pin 6 76.3
Pin 11 76.5
Pin 4 76.3
Pin 2 76.4

More scribblings below

15454387879643360559936956433497 (resized).jpg15454388164854811490078315197480 (resized).jpg
#69 63 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

If you believe this, then I challenge you to test your mousin around pin and post the results. Check wall outlet and coil voltage.

Here ya go. On my Mousin’. You can believe whatever you want, doesn’t make it true.
Looks like the increase of about 9 volts AC increases the DC flipper coil voltage less than 2 volts. That’s not going to be enough to cause the issues described in the original post.

C05C8D59-0292-4E28-8B6D-67721CA5370E (resized).jpegF21E10C2-59B5-4917-8FEC-74145C3A2881 (resized).jpeg

#70 63 days ago

What coils do you have in there?

#71 63 days ago

Every system 9/11 game’s voltages that I have ever owned are around these same values and I have owned a LOT of them.

I’m not looking in there to check on the coils. It’s not relevant.

#72 63 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

All 3 machines have 124 volts going into them. Is this AC power within power company specs, yes but at it very highest limits.

No, this is not the upper limit of Voltage for the "power company", at least not around here. 120v +/- 10%. This is straight from my local electrical engineer at penelec. 120v range is therefore 108 to 132v. As a master electrician for 10 years, I can promise you 124v is not the real world high limit. In this part of the power grid, 113v-127 is pretty much the average . Can't say that I've ever taken a meter reading below 110v or above 130v, unless there was a bad neutral on the service.

#73 63 days ago

I haven't read all the posts in this topic, but under no circumstances, would I ever re tap a transformer in a solid state pinball, unless it was a re-import, fresh off of the boat. And I would then tap it for 115v - 120v only. That is the voltage we use here in the USA. Anything else is asking for trouble on a SS game.

#74 63 days ago

Agreed but yeah no one was wanting to do that here but rather fix it if someone had done it previously

Quoted from Jr99svt:

I haven't read all the posts in this topic, but under no circumstances, would I ever re tap a transformer in a solid state pinball, unless it was a re-import, fresh off of the boat. And I would then tap it for 115v - 120v only. That is the voltage we use here in the USA. Anything else is asking for trouble on a SS game.

#75 62 days ago
Quoted from darcangeloel:

So it sounds like if voltage increases and resistance stays the same the amperage would increase right?

Quoted from GRUMPY:

It would seem this way. But they are more thing involved here. If you use a 120 watt bulb at 120 volts it uses 1 amp of current (VxI=P) So now lets double the voltage to 240 volts and the current will drop by 1/2. 240 volts x .5 amps = 120 watts

120 watt at 120 volts= 1 amp isn't VxI=P, it's P/V=I
Your follow up statement is correct (about P/V=I) but the OP asked about V/I=R. And he's right, if V goes up and R stays the same I must also increase.

OhmsLaw (resized).png

#76 62 days ago

Swapping the aux power board seems to have solved the issue. However when I put it back into the earth shaker it seems to play at normal power. I have no idea at this point. I guess alls well that ends well? Merry Christmas!

#77 62 days ago

Many things can cause this. Connections, corrosion, partially failed brides and diodes, etc. The board may still need to be serviced, even if it’s working now. I have seen this quite a few times with games that have a AUX boards. Glad you figured it out.

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