Well he pretty much finished ST and made it interesting. SW was great at launch and received several updates quickly and I consider it done. All games will have some preferred pathways or exploits so I don't have an issue with that. GB needs to be balanced and GOT just needs a final bug polish. People give Lyman 5 years to work on code so why is everyone always so up in arms over Dwight?

It's probably because we see Lyman roll out updates long after they're expected, so that builds trust in Lyman. Where's that GB code (yeah, I've heard it's coming for the past 15 months) and where are the bug fixes for the other games that Hilton mentioned?

GOT and SW appear to be in good shape, especially Star Wars. GB code support though has been terrible, the worst in years by Stern in my opinion. Stern keeps saying its been of of their best selling games and yet look at where the code is. The game is one of Stern's most loaded games to date but what's the point of adding multiple interactive features if they are not coded properly?

There's no way in hell I'm going to drop $6k-$9k on a new Munsters when Ghostbusters code still isn't finished. It just doesn't feel right. Dwight seems like a great guy, his rulesets are unique but I don't think Stern is giving him enough time and / or resources to properly finish his games.

October 2017, Stern's first Stern of the Union address.

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January 2019, 15 months later!

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SW and GoT both really could use another update, tons of rough edges and balance issues.

Even his WPC games are generally known for all their bugs.

My goodness - I am glad I read this. Was about to put my cash down on Munsters.
I can't believe Lyman is not assigned to this game. That is crazy (slang for: Stern).
How long has this title been speculated? 3 years now. Insane.
Must play it first now.

Lyman games are always acceptable and good all along the way. We just keep getting more and more, and more--and he always delivers in the end.

From what I've heard on the grapevine he *really* doesn't like revisiting games.

Why that was could have something to do with Stern being reluctant to pay for the coders' time to go back over old games - the rumours that for years Lyman was doing all the revisits off the clock, of his own initiative. So it *was* difficult to blame Dwight.

Now, that situation seems to have changed. Since Lonnie (who also didn't do much previously) has simultaneously been putting out big updates for Aerosmith, KISS & GotG, whilst presumably also starting work on a new project. Plus at least 3 new coders being hired, 2 senior. They also kept Lyman on BM'66 without a new project, even though it took forever. Stern obviously 'get it' on code, finally.

So why hasn't Dwight gone back and polished GoT, GB, SW, ST ... ? Which all need it to varying degrees.

Tumbleweed.

No. TWD and BM66 were absolutely awful at launch and for a long while afterwards.

No, he doesn't. In September 2017 he posted the following on the Tilt Forums re GB code:

'I want to be clear. I consider the game to be finished. I think that the game is fun and interesting as is. But there is always room for improvement.'

So it's complete, but there are two inserts that don't relate to anything in the code - including the final wizard mode?

Don't see myself buying another game coded by him for this reason alone. I have faith in Lyman, none in Dwight.

Here's a link to the post in question:

http://tiltforums.com/t/ghostbusters-pinball-rulesheet/1358/306

Crazy.

Does seem to be a rumor floating around that he doesn't like adding the final polish that many games need. Heard this ages ago but can't remember where.

As long as there's a MASSIVE skill shot cheat, the game is incomplete! That's a minor change that could probably be coded and tested in a day. Completely reasonable to think that should've been addressed by now, and if GB is allowed for tourney play, it should be axed based on that one bug alone.

Doesn't matter where you heard it - it's spot on.
The evidence speaks for itself.

Wrong - each was bad initially but only for a very short while.
BM66 has had more solid code updates, including serious rule-set expansion, than any title Stern has ever released.
TWD was bad for the first 4 months only, then was also kicked into high gear with many updates and continued this way for 2 years.

It's not wrong, it's manifestly true. You've also already backtracked from saying they were 'always acceptable'.

There was virtually nothing to BM'66 for the first 6 months, then it gradually began to get better, and there was a fairly decent game after about a year. It then got vastly better in the past year.

It took a lot more than 4 months to get TWD out of shit tier. Go back over old forum posts. It had an awful reputation for quite a while after launch.

Metallica was far from well received, either, though it took much less long.

GOT is certainly not finished IMO. There are times I’m playing the game and there is complete silence going on. Unless it’s Lyman, I wouldn’t buy another game coded by Dwight. Do your job buddy and finish what you started.

If the original coder doesn't want to do it or doesn't have time to do it because they are onto newer things, that's what more junior devs are for. Have Dwight or whoever is the lead on a game mentor and guide the junior guy, but let the junior guy take ownership of the code to fix what needs to be addressed. Trains them up, frees the senior guys to continue on with newer stuff.

"Polish" items are debateable, just because a bunch of people think a game should be one way or another isn't enough reason to change it, people in general are never satisfied.

However, imo, no excuse for known bugs/exploits in code now. Stern has upped their development staff to the point where they shouldn't be as resource starved as they were. They have done a great job with updates in 2018, let's hope 2019 gets them all caught up.

TWD and BM66 were awful at launch and took forever to just be ok. Both have fantastic code now though.

Yeah but Lyman doesn't just finish. He POLISHES. Big difference.

The USB port is the best and worst thing to happen to modern pinball. Allows for easy updates, but also allows product to ship with skeleton code.

I'm not sure any code update will help GB's punishing layout, but it can't hurt.

Munsters just like GB or SW will be fine for route and will probably earn well, code complete or not.

For home use, opinions vary if their game is polished enough. No fault of Dwight’s, he gets pulled away to next cornerstone title.
I’m in for a lot of play time on location with ANY game, especially Dwights as a result.
My local op can benefit along the way.

I would say don't buy any game unless you are happy with how it plays at that very moment. This idea of buying a game you know is broken but expecting it to be fixed in the next few years is beyond my level of understanding. Even if it is Lyman on lead, you don't know if he is going to retire or be stuck working on other games.

I feel the same way as the op. Been considering a SW premium, but I hear complaining about wizard modes needing polish and then I see my Metallica and acdc get updates that really weren't needed but appreciated. It has to be a Dwight thing.

If stern didn’t do license games, there would be greater need to try the game before purchase and thus code would have to be good. Stern relies on license to do their business bc all thought logic goes out the window and ppl purchase solely based on pictures. Pathetic

GOT and SW do feel pretty complete to me but i do agree that a final polish would be nice as i have noticed some bugs. Ghostbuster is the one that needs a code update badly.

I think those updates have been done by a different coder? Don't remember where I heard that though.

It seems like that's really what Dwight's games need too, not sure why AS and KISS have gotten priority over GB and GoT

I think they were done with the assistance of others, but from what I understood, he was still overseeing and performing work.

I would only consider buying another stern game when the game is complete, and i play it. No more buying games without seeing it in person and playing it. I bet nobody buys a car or truck that way.

Several people at CES reported getting to the wizard mode already. Now it's early code I'm sure, but that might worry me some for home use if there aren't going to be substantial code updates.

But really, we all know this song and how to dance to it already, if you're an early buyer nobody wants to hear you cry about code anymore. You know what you're getting into spending that kind of money on a promise and a dream.

Dwight is going to be on the Thursday stream, sure he'll shed some light on things then.

He can state what ever his opinions are but in the end his employer has said it's not finished so it doesn't really matter what he thinks on it. I agree the latest update has taken too long but it will eventually come. As for inserts not relating that's probably not a good example as my favorite Lyman game ACDC has the same thing. The code just went a different direction and they ended up not using them like originally planned. You still see people piss and moan about cannon modes though, so some people are just not going to be happy no matter what the coder does.

This!!!!! If you bought blindly you have no one but yourself to blame. If you bought expecting everything to end up just how you wanted it you are delusional. No game will suite every single person and not all games should have the same amount of code and depth. Unique code is what really sets some games apart, not just more lines of code. Buying something before it is what you want it to be is taking a big risk. Even with Lyman he could leave stern, have a medical issues that causes him to retire, a recession could happen and stern could go under, etc. There are all sorts of situations that could end up with you paying a lot of money for a game that you are not happy with.

Easier said than done. Realizing there are bugs, exploits, and necessary polish needed in game doesn’t come from 20,30, 50 plays....most of it comes after hundreds which seems to follow suit why Lyman revisits games years later, to fill the gaps so to speak and truly consider a game finished.

Well sw is pretty bad ass so the guy can complete a code if he wants or if he has time. I learned a valuable lesson when buying my gb and that is DO NOT BUY A GAME ASSUMING THEY WILL FINISH IT. I waited 2 yrs for sw before I pulled the trigger. Never again will I be held hostage by a code. It’s stressing to spend that kinda money and wondering if you have a lighted box that you hate and when you go to sell you get half the money you put in. And for what.
So Munsters ........not until code is done and if it takes 3 yrs so be it. If not complete then no loss for me or the stress.
Btw you people that keep prepaying for pinballs fuel this ...... sorry but it’s the truth.
Sorry Dwight I really love your work. But my mom always said “don’t commit if you are gonna do it halfass!”
Go chiefs

To be fair, Dwight's record is more like 3/4 assed. If he doesn't like polishing (as it appears he doesn't), he needs some junior programmers to clean up his code and polish it to a shine.

My experience with a Dwight game is GB so I'm going to say his biggest negative is that....

He's not Lyman. Is that really a negative? Because Lyman is the BEST and its not even close.

I hope he closes the gap with both GB and Munsters.

Has anyone used the pinball browser to see what call outs or dots haven’t been implemented within GOT? I always wanted to see more images in the wizard modes or more call outs from the Hound. Game of Thrones is one of those games with strategies that keep you interested. I’m almost positive he mentioned once at a show that he had some thoughts that he wanted to go back to on the code.
Maybe Dwight just wants to get paid more to make things happen?

Leave Dwight out of this. Any software guy for that matter.

He has, what, 15 years in pinball. Surely he is passionet about the games and would like to perfect them.

If Ghostbusters is silent it is because a) the employer says it is done (screw the customer). Or b) the employer says it will have to wait (priorities). And who says it is his gig alone.

Blame management.

On the topic of do not buy sight unseen. Yes, you can damn right expect Stern to follow up their products with software updates. At least for bug fixes and adjustments to what is already in there. A 6K dollar product that they deliberately release with early software and let people believe will be supported. Oh, yes we can.

Not really, if you are patient enough and wait 18 months or so all games have full code reports and exploits listed on several of the forums. You can still buy the games NIB at that point or get a HUO. Stern makes most titles for 24-36 months and if it's a great game it will sell well and they will continue to make them like they have with Met, ACDC, ST, SM, etc. So if polished code is your main concern there is absolutely no reason to rush to buy a game. The people that keep falling for the hype really have no business bitching constantly about code. They knew exactly what they were getting into and did it anyway.

What specifically do you view as unfinished in the SW code?

I bet this happens more often then you assume in the auto industry.

Example 1. Tesla announces a new model, people put down deposits without driving it.
Example 2. Rich guy wants limited run sports car (ford gt40) you put your money down and get in line.
Example 3. My boss bought 6 Chevy City Express vans without driving one. The price was good and he needed to update the fleet. He’s not driving them daily, we are.

Stern doesn't give a crap about finishing Dwight's code because you all keep buying their games anyway. If you want to send this message to Stern, stop buying their games until the code is done. Money is the only thing that will get Gary's attention. Stop giving it to him until he starts doing business with all of us in good faith.

^^^^^this. I have not bought a NIB from Stern since GOT. The quality keeps going down and the prices keep going up. F**k that. I’d rather buy an older used machine. All the new ones are on location so I can try em there.

Hi Fellas

What is being described here happens in my business as well. Marine electronics, but to a far lesser degree. New machines are released as the competition is doing something so we have to release this now to keep up with kind of mentality. The software patches are released at the rate of a couple a month again kind of using the customer as the beta tester. Granted this type of gear is more critical to safety as opposed to a pin but the”legs get it Released and fix the bugs as they are found mentality” is rampant in other business areas too. Doesn’t excuse just that it is more common than may be desireable.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but these kind of blanket topic posts are really unfair and don't really convey the whole context of the situation. To start with, everyone's idea of a "complete" or "finished" code package varies greatly from one pinballer to the next. Pulling a number out of my ass, I'd bet 99% of people that play pinball couldn't tell you the exploits or bugs in most games, let alone Dwight's in particular. Furthermore, you're comparing apples to oranges when you consider the amount of actual code in a game. When I look at GOT and SW there is a tremendous amount of code (and polish) in those games. The level of detail and time that went in to get those games where they are now had to be markedly higher than many other recent ho-hum STERN releases with "finished" levels of code. I'd love to live in a world where I can have my cake and eat it too, but that's seldom the case and usually there's trade-offs. Personally, I'd take GOT or SW where they're at, bugs and exploits and all, over many of the other titles that were released and had "finished" code relatively early but were boring with little depth. But lets be honest about that too - - how many STERN games, no matter who's programming them, are really at 100% based on everyone's opinion? easy, ZERO. Because no matter what, someone, somewhere is gonna find something to bitch about. Hell, even after all those years when Lyman came back with epic Metallica and TWD updates there were still a bunch of people whining about more things for him to add and fix.

I just hope the programmers don't tune into this forum too much, and if they do, I hope they have thick skin, as a lot of the topics and comments have to be really demotivating.

I don't think it is that hard. If you know the code is incomplete as in missing modes, inserts that don't do anything, or major bugs and those sort of things bother you then don't buy. Don't rush to be the first to own a game and wait to see what others say about the code. Play as many games as you can at shows or on location. You should get a pretty good idea whether the game is right for you in time. Any good game is going to be on sale for at least 2 years. Don't buy the LE since you basically have to buy blind when you do.

Metallica and GB are the best examples of this for me. I started out disliking Metallica. Looked like an average game and didn't care for theme. As I played it, I discovered it was a great game and reviews were solid. Bought one and it's one of my favorite games. When GB came out, I was set to buy one because it looked awesome. Played a few games and thought totally getting one. As I played more games over time and learned more about the game from others, I knew this game was not for me.

I think Dwight does a good job. His games tend to launch with more meat on the bones than other Stern titles, the light shows are in my opinion the best from Stern, and he tries new ideas. If I had a GB, I'd probably be annoyed with the state of code but I can't help suspect that has more to do with the company than any individual. After all, until recently Stern only had 3 or 4 head coders, one of which was devoted for over a year solely to BM66, which isn't many team leads for as many games as they put out a year.

Everybody's got their opinion..... personally I think this thread is in poor taste at best. Complaining about GOT and SW code? Sure you can complain about the "style" of his coding, but the depth of code and execution?

Dwight is no Lyman.

But not as bad as Lonnie. So there’s that I guess.

I don't think the thread is in poor taste, I also don't think people are complaining about depth or execution from what I have read. For the most part I think it has been (unusually for Pinside) constructive criticism.

As lead on the projects Dwight is going to get the positive and the negative, the joy of being coding lead. Positive wise I think his games are largely complete shortly after launch and have great modes, plenty to shoot for and accomplish, good strategy, lightshows, hits all the bigs. On the negative side it seems like after that, bugs and needed polish that aren't discovered until the game is out for awhile do not get addressed.

Whether that is his preference or Stern's scheduling is moot. If these things don't get addressed Dwight is the one who is going to get the reputation and people who don't like the negatives about his games will be leery of his titles.

As an aside, I am a big fan of Dwight's code. Had GB for a long time, still own and love SW and am looking for a GoT. Doesn't mean I don't think there is room for improvement.

I did buy a ST pro years ago. I thought Dwight did a good job on that game even before the big update. It had some things that were easy to start for beginners, lots of depth, fun modes, great light show, great sounds, and overall really fun to play. True, it did have flaws and really could use a lot of polish. I would say improving/polishing code is more up to Stern than one individual. I don't see why Stern could not hire a team of programmers to simply polish up code, fix bugs, and cover some basics and not overload the few lead programmers they have. Stern has put more effort into code lately so sounds like they are listening to fans.