Documenting entire life of MMR Medieval Madness Remake On Route now 7,550 Plays


By Okarcades

10 months ago


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There are 126 posts in topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 7 months ago

I forgot to get pictures of the playfield and only snapped a picture of the plays so far. Already at 5,030!!!!

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2 weeks later
#52 7 months ago

5,781 plays! Holding up pretty good except for the clear coat chipping on the edge by moat and outhole. It doesn't bother me. No repairs needed this month.

The top lanes are dirty but I can't fit my hands in there!

Making some good money for one being on location for a few months. #medievalmadness

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#53 7 months ago
Quoted from Okarcades:

5,781 plays!

700 more plays in just two weeks! Wow! Your location is simply phenomenal.

#54 7 months ago

And all at $1 per play. I am very lucky!

#55 7 months ago

The clearcoat chipping in pics #6 and #7 are very concerning. I wouldn't be happy about that at all.

#56 7 months ago
Quoted from Okarcades:

And all at $1 per play. I am very lucky!

I have to ask - 5781 plays and $3613 earnings. That is a lot of freeplays and free play. No? Then you have to split 50/50. Do you have to pay for licenses, insurance also? And taxes of course.

Thanks for posting and the updates.

#57 7 months ago
Quoted from pinnyheadhead:

I have to ask - 5781 plays and $3613 earnings. That is a lot of freeplays and free play. No? Then you have to split 50/50. Do you have to pay for licenses, insurance also? And taxes of course.
Thanks for posting and the updates.

Tons of free plays! I think it was near 900 when I checked but I will get more exact numbers next time I go there. 10% replay right out of the gate plus all the earned replays from the players. Then Id say we play 5-10 per visit because we want to make sure everything works plus We played it nearly 400 times when we first got it because it was awesome! No insurance, And licenses are only $12 per game then taxes are 4% of the 50% we take out. It wont make me rich But it will sure pay for it self between 12-16 months after all expenses.

#58 7 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

The clearcoat chipping in pics #6 and #7 are very concerning. I wouldn't be happy about that at all.

I would agree. My 22-year old unrestored AFM has nothing like that at all.

#59 7 months ago
Quoted from Okarcades:

Tons of free plays! I think it was near 900 when I checked but I will get more exact numbers next time I go there. 10% replay right out of the gate plus all the earned replays from the players. Then Id say we play 5-10 per visit because we want to make sure everything works plus We played it nearly 400 times when we first got it because it was awesome! No insurance, And licenses are only $12 per game then taxes are 4% of the 50% we take out. It wont make me rich But it will sure pay for it self between 12-16 months after all expenses.

so 3 months in and you have brought in $1661 of an 8k game. 15 month pay off if it stays steady is pretty damn nice, but I do question what sort of condition game you will have left after payoff and the more realistic payoff?

This seems to be a fantastic location, but this is a great example of how the math in reality makes it silly to operate pinball machines unless you are doing it for the fun. Not only do you have a great location but you are dealing with likely one of the best earning games of all time.

What I see as the more realistic payoff.
$1661 in take home post sales tax
Figure on average 1 hours per week to maintain, clean, etc. So in 3 months you have spent 12 hours on maintaining the game. At a megar $15/hr that takes $180 off the top.

$1481 post labor

Now lets take off the 25% that is income tax (sure it is offset by the depreciation of the game but still a tax)

Leaves $1110

divide that by 3 months = $370 per month.

This increases the real payoff to 21 months and will mean 40,000 plays by then.

#60 7 months ago

Great thread! Added to favorites.

#61 7 months ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

This increases the real payoff to 21 months and will mean 40,000 plays by then.

Won't it still be worth $6K at the end of that?

#62 7 months ago

Does anyone know who made these play fields?

#63 7 months ago

It seems like all playfields are chipping on the edges like this. I wonder if there is a new formulation for clearcoat.

#64 7 months ago
Quoted from jwilson:

Won't it still be worth $6K at the end of that?

depends on how the game continues to wear. If the 3 months damage is any indication, then 7x that damage may be of concern.

Either way, the point is that this game does not bring home a net profit till 21 months in. Sure you can sell the game, but that is not the point.

#65 7 months ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

depends on how the game continues to wear. If the 3 months damage is any indication, then 7x that damage may be of concern.
Either way, the point is that this game does not bring home a net profit till 21 months in. Sure you can sell the game, but that is not the point.

Well, if we are looking at it strictly financially, if it pays for itself in 21 months, and you sell it at that time, that's your profit, so the salvage value is an important part of the big picture.

I think anybody would take an investment where you get your money back in two years and then still get a big balloon payment at the end.

The problem is you can only do it with a relatively low amount (you can only do 8k) and its a lot more of a PITA than just a regular investment.

Still, for someone who likes this sort of thing, its not bad. If you get your 8k back and get another 5k at the end, it was probably worth it.

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#66 7 months ago
Quoted from Elicash:

Does anyone know who made these play fields?

I'm guessing General Motors.

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#67 7 months ago
Quoted from Bronty:

Still, for someone who likes this sort of thing, its not bad. If you get your 8k back and get another 5k at the end, it was probably worth it.

you said the magic part... you need to like it. It is one of the dumbest investments you can make if your primary is making money.

8k investment for a hypotehtical 6k (Ill be generous on resale) profit after 21 months.

Keep in mind you also spend 80-100 hours maintaining that game over the past 2 years. What is your time worth?

All said, it is extremely FUN to hobby operate pinball machines!

(I just wish we had a location as lucrative as this example!)

#68 7 months ago
Quoted from fattdirk:

It seems like all playfields are chipping on the edges like this. I wonder if there is a new formulation for clearcoat.

I think its from different formula and that its thicker now than previous years.

#69 7 months ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

you said the magic part... you need to like it. It is one of the dumbest investments you can make if your primary is making money.

I hear you

#70 7 months ago

But he obviously enjoys running a small business and drinking a beer with the bar owner while he cleans up his game. There is a lot to be said for being happy in life.

It surely would be different if he were taking time off his $50 an hour job to work on the game. Congratulations on things working out and please keep us informed of how the game holds up. The clear around the moat is definitely wearing in a different manner than on the B/W games.

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#71 7 months ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

so 3 months in and you have brought in $1661 of an 8k game. 15 month pay off if it stays steady is pretty damn nice, but I do question what sort of condition game you will have left after payoff and the more realistic payoff?
This seems to be a fantastic location, but this is a great example of how the math in reality makes it silly to operate pinball machines unless you are doing it for the fun. Not only do you have a great location but you are dealing with likely one of the best earning games of all time.
What I see as the more realistic payoff.
$1661 in take home post sales tax
Figure on average 1 hours per week to maintain, clean, etc. So in 3 months you have spent 12 hours on maintaining the game. At a megar $15/hr that takes $180 off the top.
$1481 post labor
Now lets take off the 25% that is income tax (sure it is offset by the depreciation of the game but still a tax)
Leaves $1110
divide that by 3 months = $370 per month.
This increases the real payoff to 21 months and will mean 40,000 plays by then.

I don't pay income tax on any of that because I buy more games with any money it makes and an llc only pays on the bottom line which is usually either $0 or a negative. I only spend about 1 hour a month maintaining a new game and the owner of the place I have my game fixes the small stuff so I don't need to go down except for major stuff.

Even at your calculations I would have a 100% ROI in less than 2 years AS WELL as have a game worth easily $6k. I could grab a new playfield for $1000 and the game would be just like new I plan on having this game until I die anyway and having it one route the whole time. So I'll let the playfield get beat to death before ever changing it out or restoring it.

The main reason I do pinball is for hobby as well as a tax write off since I usually claim a loss for the business because I more machines or inventory. I also get to write of tools and it pays for all my pinball fun! I get to buy all kinds of games with no money out of my pocket as well as play a bunch of free pinball and meet lots of great new people. And you can't put a price on that!

#72 7 months ago
Quoted from Okarcades:

I don't pay income tax on any of that because I buy more games with any money it makes and an llc only pays on the bottom line which is usually either $0 or a negative. I only spend about 1 hour a month maintaining a new game and the owner of the place I have my game fixes the small stuff so I don't need to go down except for major stuff.
Even at your calculations I would have a 100% ROI in less than 2 years AS WELL as have a game worth easily $6k. I could grab a new playfield for $1000 and the game would be just like new I plan on having this game until I die anyway and having it one route the whole time. So I'll let the playfield get beat to death before ever changing it out or restoring it.
The main reason I do pinball is for hobby as well as a tax write off since I usually claim a loss for the business because I more machines or inventory. I also get to write of tools and it pays for all my pinball fun! I get to buy all kinds of games with no money out of my pocket as well as play a bunch of free pinball and meet lots of great new people. And you can't put a price on that!

I agree 100% and those are the same reasons I route games. Spunds like you have a super sweet setup!

#73 7 months ago

Luckily I do. This is my best game on location at the best location of all time. I just had a demolition man make $87 for 1 month and after the split it was about $50 for me for a month. That sucks! But that's the business.

#74 7 months ago

Great thread. I plan to stay tuned.

#75 7 months ago
Quoted from Okarcades:

I don't pay income tax on any of that because I buy more games with any money it makes and an llc only pays on the bottom line which is usually either $0 or a negative.

At the end of the day when when you sell those pins, wont income tax need to paid ?

#76 7 months ago

When I sell the pins yes I will need to pay income tax

#77 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I would agree. My 22-year old unrestored AFM has nothing like that at all.

same.

never seen that on my 90s pins i have had...

#78 7 months ago

My AFM has really bad chipping. I think it all depends on the amount of plays and how good of condition the operator keeps it in. If my MMR had chipping like on the left red force field insert people would go bonkers! That's not even at an edge either.

I just got this afm in this condition a few months back but still got it for a steal. And I'm sure the operator easily made his money back. And I know they didn't ever service it because pretty much everything was broken.

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#79 7 months ago
Quoted from Okarcades:

When I sell the pins yes I will need to pay income tax

You should ask a CPA about depreciating them over X number of years. I have games out on route that will go into my game room after X years as they will have been depreciated to zero value as far as taxes are concerned. At that point I can keep routing them (but can't claim and more depreciation) or retire them and have them much closer than a 30 minute drive.

#80 7 months ago
Quoted from desertT1:

You should ask a CPA about depreciating them over X number of years. I have games out on route that will go into my game room after X years as they will have been depreciated to zero value as far as taxes are concerned. At that point I can keep routing them (but can't claim and more depreciation) or retire them and have them much closer than a 30 minute drive.

you can use either straight line or a MAKERs to depreciate. Depending on your situation, one may be better than the other.

#81 7 months ago

I am no restoration expert, but I have read many things (a lot of the Clay Harrell stuff) that says a common mistake is 'too many layers of clear coat'. It looks amazing out of the box, but the symptom is lifting and chipping clear at outholes, corners, post holes, etc.

It would appear that these remakes suffer from this issue.

I am wondering if these were made my Mirco, because I am trying to decide between a Mirco WH20 playfield or sending my existing one off.

Appreciate the OP's updates in this thread. I am glad he is happy and it would seem the chipping issues wont affect his earnings. But important for us collectors to know.

#82 7 months ago

The playfields were made by CGC (Churchill) in Chicago which is the same place that made the originals.

#83 7 months ago

Where is this in Mitchell? I'll have to put in a few plays the next time I'm through there!

#84 7 months ago

Wow...that AFM definitely paid for itself a few times over. The insert clear probably started first from the heat of the old incandescent bulbs being turned on all the time at locations. Thats some really dried out clearcoat! It looks like a fun project.

#85 7 months ago
Quoted from mschonbrun:

The playfields were made by CGC (Churchill) in Chicago which is the same place that made the originals.

Correct but the clear coat has changed since the 90s.

#86 7 months ago

So use 90s clear coat. Problem solved?

#87 7 months ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Correct but the clear coat has changed since the 90s.

Yes, you're right and I used my language carefully. It's the same place but it's nearly 20 years later. Of course things change. How much different is the clean now than before? I have no idea. But MMR has a double clear coat and I would suspect that Williams didn't have the same. In any case, Mylar at the heavy spots makes sense on every game as the ball hits the shooter land and outhole on every single ball.

#88 7 months ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

you can use either straight line or a MAKERs to depreciate. Depending on your situation, one may be better than the other.

Modified Accelerated Cost Recovery System (MACRS)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MACRS

#89 7 months ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Modified Accelerated Cost Recovery System (MACRS)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MACRS

thanks. Never spelt it. Just listen to my tax guy.

#90 7 months ago
Quoted from hoby1:

At the end of the day when when you sell those pins, wont income tax need to paid ?

I think the goal is for the pins he owns to out live him...this is my goal as well.

#91 7 months ago
Quoted from Crash:

So use 90s clear coat. Problem solved?

I really like the dp coat but it obviously has changed for reasons. The new clear is much more shiny and thicker tho .

1 week later
#92 6 months ago

6,267 plays now and the problems are starting. I'd say about 10-15 screws or bolts were loose under the playfield. Free and easy fix because I just needed to tighten them up. One of the Allen bolts from the flipper coil stop fell out completely and had to be put back in and adjusted. I hadn't tightened them ever so that was my fault I guess. Also it's starting to get dirty under there.

All in all still very happy with everything. The chipping in the clear isn't a big deal to me but I'm sure everyone wants to check it out. Playfield looks like new still but I forgot to get a few pics. I will get a few shots in a few weeks!

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#93 6 months ago

anyone offer a protector for this 2 areas?

#94 6 months ago
Quoted from kapsreiter:

anyone offer a protector for this 2 areas?

Not really as these areas usually dont get that damaged that bad. This new thick automotive clear chips a fair amount tho.

#95 6 months ago
Quoted from kapsreiter:

anyone offer a protector for this 2 areas?

Anywhere you can buy Mylar.

#96 6 months ago

The chipping isn't too bad now but I can't imagine in 10, 15, or even 20 years from now how that Playgirls will hold up.

#97 6 months ago

i don't think mylar is a solution
when the ball hits the edge

Cliffy where are you

#98 6 months ago

Following. I like this post and the one about ST, wish I had pins near me on location.

It's nice to see how these pins hold up over extended plays.

#99 6 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Anywhere you can buy Mylar.

Unfortunately no mylar won't work. I put mylar on the outhole before ever routing it and it's still chipping under the mylar. And that is just from the ball rolling over it.

#100 6 months ago

6,300 plays. is that a lot by 90s B/W standards? i have literally no idea. i know there are old EMs with hundreds of thousands on the odometer.

it certainly seems like it's on the high side for a modern game on location these days given the timeframe, but i'm sure it's nothing compared to the beating games used to take.

it's interesting that the thick clearcoat is chipping in a way that i don't remember seeing on 90s B/W games. this same chipping seems to be happening on Stern games too, in the same kinds of places. Is it still happening on JJP playfields? i remember early WOZ games had this problem, too. seems like the manufacturers' quest for more resilient playfields has resulted in an unexpectedly brittle top layer.

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