(Topic ID: 76377)

Doctor Who Owners Club.....Time Lords Welcome!

By HoakyPoaky

10 years ago


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Post #194 Link to @pinball_faz 's Time Expander/Mini Playfield Guide Posted by pinball_faz (9 years ago)

Post #491 Link for 3-D Printed Dalek Playfield Posts. Posted by Pinballfantexas (9 years ago)

Post #696 Link to Alternative Whomobile Pinside Thread. Posted by swinks (8 years ago)

Post #1428 ColorDMD install with pics plus other cool things. Posted by ArcadeTechNerd (6 years ago)


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#5389 2 years ago

If there is demand for another (domestic for a large portion of forum readers) US supplier I can raid my Doctor Who (still very much a project as it has been for years now) and get to these boards and reproduce them. I honestly didn't think there would be much demand for them as they are a fairly simple board (from a board and electrical standpoint). If there's a supplier I generally don't bother (re-)making a board as there's so many others to do. This is the primary reason why I haven't bothered with a Twilight Zone clock board either.

If you want to fix your old board I would recommend using QED123 for the IR transmitter and QSD124 for the phototransistor. Those are the parts I would use if I were to make a reproduction. If you only want to replace the minimum then you should replace the IR transmitter (QED123) as those parts are the ones that are always on and driven hard by the opto board.

#5398 2 years ago
Quoted from Tophervette:

I have a set with one bad opto and a marco set (that apparently will have problems). Would be in the market for a working set from you.

I would only consider the original. The mounting holes and fixed placement of some items on some boards are the most important things. Without the original fabrication files (only available from PPS and to a certain manufacturer who has an agreement with PPS) any reproduction or copy is like copying a VHS (very hazy system) tape. It's analog copying and that just leads to increased error with each generation of copy. I would be inheriting the errors of the copy and subjecting them to my own errors.

The other reason why I would consider looking at the MPF assembly is to see if there are other ways to connect the board into the wiring - connectors/headers and such. I have taken apart and rebuilt plenty of WPC machines but Doctor Who is one that I have not done - it's on my very long list of projects sitting around not getting any shorter.

I am in the middle of building a batch of boards so after this batch is done and dusted I will go take a look at the MPF and try to get these boards included in the next fabrication order for boards that I make. It shouldn't take long to have this board in design and layout ready for fabrication.

#5412 2 years ago
Quoted from Its_me_aj:

I think I’m gonna start with the launch button wiring if anyone can post a picture of how everything should be, it would be greatly appreciated

You can also post a picture of YOUR wiring so someone can visually inspect it. I propose that you are asking for the help so you should do most of the work. I'm more likely to consider posting an answer with all the information needed to help in front of me than a question with very little information. In those cases ... I just move on. I am also more likely to post if there's an ERROR in a response.

Consider: asking someone to ...

  1. go to their machine
  2. open it up
  3. take a picture
  4. download the image
  5. upload the image to the forum

Versus:

  1. consider image(s) that you have of your machine (configuration) and making an assessment
Quoted from eyeamred2u:

Same diode, banded side of diode is on Green with orange wire

Not according to the wiring schematic.

switch_matrix_circuit.jpgswitch_matrix_circuit.jpg

The wiring colors are highlighted. The diode is highlighted in red. The banded end should point to the ground (low) side. The current flows from the row side to the column side. Therefore the banded end of the diode should always point to the green wire. Detection of the switch state is done by detecting the row side so the diode must be on the row side (white wire) with the banded to the ground (green wire). This is true for ALL WPC (89 or 95) machines. If you learn this rule you can wire up any switch without an image.

#5414 2 years ago
Quoted from eyeamred2u:

Sorry bout that, thanks for the correction. I no longer own a Doctor Who, so I can't post a pic of what I don't have. I only had some old pictures.

I am happy to help and do some work when it is required. The fact that you don't have a machine is yet another reason why a user asking for help should provide images of their situation.

The most important thing is that information / advice posted is correct.

"primum non nocere" = first, do no harm

This is why I like to provide "receipts" (= evidence) for any claim that I make rather than just making a claim and then someone assuming it's gospel. Do your own reading. Make your own conclusions.

#5417 2 years ago
Quoted from Its_me_aj:

Here is a picture I took last night.

Looks like there's a diode on the switch but nothing else can be determined from your image. The banded end of the diode is typically connected to the "NO" terminal of the switch and the WHT-XXX wire is connected to the "NC" terminal. The GRN-XXX wire is connected to the "C" terminal. You should remove the switch from the machine (or at least pull it out of the switch to get a better view) and check the markings on the switch to make sure the wires are connected correctly and the orientation of the diode is correct.

It looks like someone has definitely messed with the wiring as the lamp wires have non-insulated quick connectors which are not factory.

Quoted from eyeamred2u:

the banded side being on the green with orange wire.

I would not use the word "on" but rather the word "toward". When I read "on" I read connected to the GRN-ORG wire with the banded end toward the wire (i.e. between the terminal and the wire) - much like how the RED-XXX wire is in that image. That's why I pointed out the wiring diagram in the manual. Language and text communication requires good choice of wording. I make this mistake as well. It's very easy to do.

#5419 2 years ago

Well illuminated and in focus image. Perfect. Annotated.

launch_button.jpglaunch_button.jpg
#5421 2 years ago
Quoted from Its_me_aj:

Found out that if I push the shooter lane switch and the launch button at the same time, it also triggers the plumb bob switch. Independently they all test good.

How about an image of the shooter lane switch wiring?

You can try pressing different switch combinations to see what happens and which switches register.

doctor_who_switch_matrix (resized).jpgdoctor_who_switch_matrix (resized).jpg
#5423 2 years ago

Looks wired correctly. I would test the diodes with a DMM to make sure they are electrically correct (working). After that (if the diodes on the offending switches test correctly) I would try different combinations of switches to see if a pattern can be discerned. Use the matrix (table) to guide you on what combinations to try. Note errors (double hits) with combinations and see if you can determine a pattern. Otherwise you could just methodically test everything with a DMM.

You mention that the switches test good individually but you should also consider ruling out the CPU board itself as the actual problem. This differentiates central (board) versus peripheral (playfield) issues. If there is a problem on the board no amount of investigation in the playfield will find the problem.

#5426 2 years ago

Robbed the MPF from my project Doctor Who last night. Did minimal disassembly to get to the LED boards and take a look at how they are connected and mounted.

When I got to the mounted boards I could instantly see broken wires. Having no experience with a Doctor Who I assume that this is common. When I opened up my two previous Addams Family machines bookcases that I have serviced I didn't see any such broken wires. Oddly for the MPF it was only the receiver side that had broken wires. I would have thought that both side would be subjected to the same stresses.

01_dw.jpg01_dw.jpg

A word of warning to anyone who services their own machines ... do not trust the wiring that you see when you open up a machine is correct. This machine looks to me like nobody has serviced it. Alas ... that's not true. The ORG-RED wire is connected to the wrong terminal. It's connected to E3 where it should be connected to E2.

02_dw.jpg02_dw.jpg

Two of the phototransistors fell out when I opened it up but in fact there are three missing phototransistors. Someone has "reflowed" the solder on these. My advice ... don't reflow solder. It rarely helps unless there's an identified cracked or cold solder joint. Also remember to clean out the old solder and not just add some more solder to the mound.

The LED transmitters look to have had a long hard life of being over driven by the opto board circuitry. This is VERY common for all Williams machines.

03_dw.jpg03_dw.jpg

Finally ... it's really tight in there. It is possible to place a header as a small extension of the board to allow for pins and a housing to be used instead of soldering the wires directly to the terminal. It's a tight fit but it should be possible to use the area toward the lamp insert. A right angle header will prevent excessive vertical rise off the board that could potentially result in a physical collision.

04_dw.jpg04_dw.jpg

Any feedback or suggestions welcome. It won't take me long to have these boards complete and out of design / layout.

2 weeks later
#5446 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

Absolutely PLEASE see what you can do, the community deserves better solutions.

Fabrication is in progress. Submitted the fabrication order the other day. Four boards. Two versions. One original. Another with header for easy quick disconnect. Not sure if this header/connector will fit (I measured) but ultimately a physical board will provide the definitive answer.

Rendering follows. Transmitter boards will be GREEN. Receivers boards will be BLUE. Just like the originals as far as color scheme goes.

01_dw_5-opto_transmitter.jpg01_dw_5-opto_transmitter.jpg02_dw_5-opto_receiver.jpg02_dw_5-opto_receiver.jpg03_dw_5-opto_transmitter.jpg03_dw_5-opto_transmitter.jpg04_dw_5-opto_receiver.jpg04_dw_5-opto_receiver.jpg

#5450 1 year ago
Quoted from eyeamred2u:

Were you thinking straight header pins or right angle? I like the addition of the header/connector, just want the wires to be out of the way and secured in that already stuffed area. Glad to see you are working on this.

The header is straight (vertical). I looked at the orientation and was initially thinking that a right angle (horizontal) would be the way to go but that orientation is not viable in the space available. At least when I looked at it initially with ball park visualization.

Quoted from Tophervette:

I am in for a header board set if it fits please.

Got you with a work entry for these and the single lamp board.

Once I have the physical board I will do a test fit in the MPF assembly and see how things go. I can try a right angle as well even though the silkscreen doesn't indicate that it should be.

1 week later
#5462 1 year ago

Original post is in my thread. Further information will be posted to my thread. More technical discussion is reserved for my thread as it will be a boring discussion for the club thread.

A final result will be posted here once everything is finalized.

Boards arrived.

mpf_opto_boards.jpgmpf_opto_boards.jpg

Clearance in one axis.

boards_233.jpgboards_233.jpg

Clearance in another axis.

boards_234.jpgboards_234.jpg

Looks like it will work.

1 week later
#5491 1 year ago
Quoted from Weazel:

Looking at the audio board with the amplifier, I discovered the two 4700uF 35V output capacitors, buldging.
They have most probably lost a lot of their capacitance as well, so I will replace them with low ESR capacitors and hopefully the bass will return.

Quoted from Weazel:

On the power board I noticed that 4 out of 5, 15,000uF 25V capacitors are all seriously buldging.
I will replace them all before I get a nasty surprise in the way of an explosion.

This big capacitors are radial snap-in capacitors and are notoriously difficult to remove cleanly without a lot of experience and good technique. I don't know your experience level but I would strongly advise against doing this if you do not have a lot of experience. So many WPC power boards have introduced problems from the inexperienced trying to do this.

There's nothing wrong with doing this yourself but you should be prepared to deal with diagnosing and repairing any issues you introduce. If someone asks me to repair a board that has been damaged by a previous attempt like this I instantly charge double because I have to undo the "repair" and re-do the work properly.

1 week later
#5522 1 year ago
Quoted from Tophervette:

Now the hard one. That 6 pin connector with a black/brown wire in your picture. This is the connector to your coils and has 5 wires going to it.
1. Violet/Yellow stripe to right coil
2. Red/White stripe
3. Violet/silver stripe to both coils
4. Violet/Green stripe to left coil
5. Black/Brown stripe

I know how you love to be schooled.

Those Molex housings have pins that are numbered. As the housing is not a straight line it is actually marked on the housing itself. It's VERY hard to see and also VERY hard to capture as a digital image. You need bright light and a magnifying glass if you suffer from presbyopia.

  • Molex 0.062" 6-pin male housing.01_molex_0062_6p_m.jpg01_molex_0062_6p_m.jpg
  • Molex 0.062" 6-pin female housing.02_molex_0062_6p_f.jpg02_molex_0062_6p_f.jpg
  • Molex 0.062" 4-pin male housing.03_molex_0062_4p_m.jpg03_molex_0062_4p_m.jpg
  • Molex 0.062" 4-pin male and female housings (side view).04_molex_0062_4p_b.jpg04_molex_0062_4p_b.jpg

This is your (wires out-of-focus) image annotated with the pin numbers.

05_dw_mpf_solenoid_6p.jpg05_dw_mpf_solenoid_6p.jpg

  1. VIO-YEL (+50V solenoid power).
  2. RED-WHT (+20V flasher power).
  3. VIO-YEL (solenoid #4 drive).
  4. VIO-GRN (solenoid #5 drive).
  5. BLK-BRN (solenoid #17 drive).
  6. N/C or key

Guideline rules:

  1. Wires are always ordered from higher voltage to lower voltage (conventional current).
  2. Wires supplying power are grouped together before drive wires.
  3. Wires are always ordered in BRN/RED/ORG/YEL/GRN/BLU/VIO/GRY.
  4. N/C or key is not always required because mating of housings is keyed.
  5. Housing on harness side is almost (but not) always FEMALE. Housing on assembly side is almost (but not) always MALE.
  6. Wire colors usually match on both sides but do NOT have to match. Solid colors may be used on assembly side.
  7. Wire gauge on assembly side is almost (but not) always 22AWG.
1 month later
#5590 1 year ago

Or ...

boards_064.jpgboards_064.jpg

It's not original in circuit design but has reduced power dissipation (those big blue 2W resistors are gone), LED indicators and is much more easily serviced as there are discrete transistors versus a comparator.

#5601 1 year ago
Quoted from wolftownjeff:

Are these for sale?
How much?

Yes. Available bare board pricing is in the first post of thread @ https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dumbass-test-and-reproduction-pcbs. Please use PM for complete boards.

5 months later
#5809 1 year ago
Quoted from aeneas:

[quoted image]

Yum. Both of those images show alkaline corrosion on the CPU board (in the background).

3 weeks later
#5839 1 year ago
Quoted from TheShadowsNose:

Replacing my launch button this morning and just noticed this 3 pin connector that isn’t hooked up to anything, and I don’t see its mate anywhere. Any ideas what it’s supposed to be hooked up to?

Got a better illuminated image? I can't see the wire colors and therefore cannot figure out where it's supposed to go. It looks like it might be for the flipper cabinet button opto board but I really can't see it clearly.

xfmr.jpgxfmr.jpg

Your transformer primary voltage selection was hacked. The jumper is configured for 230V but the winding wiring has been cut and spliced.

Quoted from pinballinreno:

110v for bill acceptor?

Not likely. That would be a connector with "hot" and "neutral". This would be a two pin connector with a black and white wire.

#5841 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

But Doctor who uses type 1, opto flipper boards with .100 IDC connectors.
Maybe the opto boards were replaced with regular cabinet switches?

Looks like there is a type 1 board already installed. It's dark but it does look to be OEM. The board has the 0.100" Molex housing. This connector looks to be a 0.062" Molex housing. I didn't think the factory inserted a Molex connector there but the factory did some strange things sometimes. The wire colors will indicate what it's used for - if it is used at all.

#5846 1 year ago
Quoted from eyeamred2u:

Back in the day, these machines could have a printer hooked up or a ticket dispener, however they required a separate board to be installed. This is the plug for said board. From having a few Doctor Who games, this plug just stays empty.

Yep. Without having any actual experience, I can concur with this. The wires are:

  • BLK-YEL = +12VU
  • ORG = GND
  • BLU-VIO = Right Flipper Opto (cabinet button)

It's likely to be overlapped use.

5 months later
#5976 10 months ago
Quoted from wastedthelight:

The game is/was now resetting every few seconds.

<opinion>Lots of not so good advice on this forum regarding WPC resets and the daughter board.</opinion>

Quoted from wastedthelight:

Tested voltage at the board

Test the voltage without load and with load. This will allow you to see if there's something (a load) dragging down the supply. ALWAYS test and measure WITHOUT the daughter board in the system. It is an additional variable that you must eliminate to get the cause of your issues. It causes "interference".

Quoted from wastedthelight:

Surprised TP2 is almost at 5v given that the daughter board shows low 5v, expected lower.

For the answer to this, you will need to ask the manufacturer of the daughter board.

Quoted from wastedthelight:

TP1(12v)-12.6v
TP2(5v)-4.9v
TP6(50v)-66.1v (51 when solenoid fires)
TP3(12v)-10.8-11.2 fluctuating
TP8(18v)-14.2-15.5 fluctuating
TP7(20v)-14.1

See https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_WPC#LEDs_and_test_points_on_WPC-089_Power.2FDriver_Boards for more detailed information on the test points. This should apply to the RD board.

Almost everybody on this forum mixes and confuses the "12V" supplies. Very, very common to see this with bad advice given related to it. I have written the follow a few times on this forum (other threads not this one). Seems to fall on blind eyes.

  • TP1 = +12VU. This is UNREGULATED. Typically, unrelated to digital logic (+5VR) resets.
  • TP2 = +5VR. This is output from the 5V regulator. On your RD board this is the small "vertical" board just above the test point rack. This is a highly efficient switching regulator. +4.9VDC is low but acceptable.
  • TP3 = +12VR. This is REGULATED. Used by the switch matrix comparators on the CPU board. Also used by the daughter board as the "12V" source that it uses to generate the +5VR for the CPU board.
  • TP6 = +50V. Solenoid power. Unregulated. Nominally 51VAC which is ~+70VDC RMS.
  • TP7 = +20V. Flasher power. Unregulated. Nominally 16VAC which is ~+22VDC RMS.
  • TP8 = +18V. Controlled lamp (matrix) power. Unregulated. Nominally 13.3VAC which is ~19VDC RMS.

Your voltages appear low. Check your line voltage (wall outlet voltage). Also check the VAC entering J101, J102 and J112.

Quoted from wastedthelight:

J101, both reds are producing under 4v each.

I suspect you are not measuring the VAC correctly. Are you measuring this as VDC?

Quoted from wastedthelight:

Here's an interesting kicker, I removed the WPC Reset daughter board and now the every few second resets stopped.I can actually play the game! I'm assuming this means that my 12v is still an issue since the daughter board uses the 12v to create a "better' 5v...so my problem is just hidden at the moment.

This is THE fundamental issue with the daughter board. It MASKS other problems on your power board. This is why I never recommend long term use of this board. It is useful to get yourself out of a mess in a pinch (operating a machine and need to keep it running) but it is not a long term solution. This daughter board, of course, only works as a solution if your +12VR is good. If the +12VR is failing then it won't help you. Always fix your power board. Don't use a band aid.

Quoted from wastedthelight:

This is my findings so far after making it down to "6.18.12 Using a Multimeter to Test the Bridge Rectifier and Capacitors" of the reset troubleshooting guide. The capacitors are the large 5 black ones, right? Where's "BR2"? Not seeing a marking on the board and looks different than the guide, likely due to this being a Rottendog board.[quoted image]

The RD board replaced the bridge rectifier (BR2) with discrete diodes. They should be D51-D54. All the corresponding bridge rectifiers are "X1-X4" where X is the voltage.

  • 51-54=5V
  • 121-124=12V(U)
  • 181-184 = 18V
  • 201-204=20V
  • 501-504=50V

Since the board is new, it should work. However, two things come to mind.

  1. RD is known for very poor quality assurance. Occasionally, someone becomes the unintended victim of this poor quality assurance.
  2. If you have had electrical problems, you may have damaged your power board. I do not have any evidence for this.

The one thing almost everybody NEVER mentions is your CONNECTORS. You "replaced" the headers when you purchased a new board but you didn't replace the connectors. This is why you measure the board without load. You want to know what the board produces as a baseline. Then you measure the voltage at the CPU board to see if your connectors have increased resistance and are reducing the voltage along the way.

In my experience, replacing the headers and connectors fixes most every WPC reset. Not all but most. I recommend you replace (re-pin) your connectors. If the connector at the power board (J114) is in poor condition, the daughter board will be receiving a reduced voltage that will cause it to indicate "low voltage".

The above might seem very strongly opinionated (and considered "tough love"). Your right to think that. Your right to ignore it as well. However, I didn't just spend one hour typing all that text for my benefit.

#5982 10 months ago
Quoted from wastedthelight:

The transformer at the bottom of the cabinet, it's only outputting 3.4v on red. Last night the game was playable, today, no longer if I double flipper hit.

That seems low but the actual reading you report is irrelevant if you are not measuring or interpreting it correctly. You could have said it was reading 34V or 3.4V and it would be meaningless if you don't know what you're doing.

Quoted from wastedthelight:

At the transformer I'm testing at the lead it, before it jumps into the molex connector. Does this sound like the root cause, a bad transformer?

So just how are you measuring this? I am 100% certain you are not doing it correctly and are measuring VDC when you need to be measuring VAC. See https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_WPC#WPC_5VDC_Power_Derivation_Path for a better understanding of the derivation path.

So why do I know with 100% certainty you are not measuring correctly? Your DMM is set to measure VDC. Your image shows that.

Thank you for posting the image. It provides evidence for what you are doing. It is appreciated. Seriously! Most people don't provide any useful information on what they are doing so any person trying to help cannot provide any useful information on how to determine what is going on. I have seen people say "I measure <insert value here>" but they don't say HOW they arrived at that measurement - assuming they are doing it correctly. Seen it many, many times on this forum.

"I know I'm doing it right. I can't be doing something wrong because I know exactly what I'm doing."

If you aren't measuring things correctly, every conclusion you make is based on an invalid assumption.

3 weeks later
2 months later
#6104 6 months ago

I was asked about 1.5 years ago to reproduce the MPF opto boards to have a domestic US supplier. I have been sitting on these boards for about 1.5 years. Almost no movement. Sometimes, I wonder why I bother to help the community since the community doesn't seem to want to support me. I have a bunch of boards that I have made that just don't move and I will probably not bother to re-stock once they're gone. These boards fall into that category.

dw_5-opto.jpgdw_5-opto.jpg

#6112 6 months ago
Quoted from eyeamred2u:

Hope they work but if I am going to be honest, I am sure they will not. It comes down to alignment issues with the LED's and it is a pain to to try and troubleshoot. Vendors really should stop selling them.

I was asked to look at a set of these Gulf Pinball boards by another forum member. He asked me to find out why they didn't work "out of the box". Sure enough, they didn't work "out of the box". I did fix them and they passed my bench electrical test. I'm not going to post what I did because, honestly, it's up to the manufacturer to figure out what's wrong with their product and fix it for themselves. I can tell you that the mistake that was made affected all similar components. It was not a "one off" error. It was a 100% error in their manufacturing process.

For the general reader of this thread: If you have a problem with a board then you should always contact the manufacturer or merchant first.

I see too many people come to this forum and post questions with issues about a recently purchased product that should be directed to the manufacturer or merchant. The product pricing should include support.

Quoted from ACDNate:

Can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't know they existed. Didn't come up in a Google search but the one available at Marco's by Gulf Pinball did.

I am fairly sure the Gulf Pinball either has an exclusive distribution agreement or is a wholly owned company / subsidiary of Marco. They don't appear to be available from any other merchant. Much like I am fairly sure that Rottendog has an exclusive distribution agreement with Pinball Life since those boards don't appear to be available from any other merchant either. Pindora Box appears to be their own manufacturer and merchant but they are located in the EU.

Quoted from ACDNate:

I don't know how it works, but perhaps some kind of search optimization for your product line would be beneficial in awareness of your products. There are many many pinball hobbyists that don't frequent Pinside ‍♂️

I am a hobbyist offering boards to those who are more discerning (those that do a little reading and research) buyers.

1 month later
#6174 5 months ago
Quoted from rwarren28806:

Still tracking the ground short in row 1 of the switch matrix.

Remove J3 from the 10-opto board and re-execute the switch edge test. Ignore the missing opto switches. Report your findings.

#6193 5 months ago
Quoted from ACDNate:

Now after reinstall my bank of optos is all showing up in test.

Quoted from ACDNate:

What should I be checking next?

If the opto pairs are registering correctly I don't understand what the problem is. Is the problem with the 5x mushroom switches or the ball locks? They are separate entities.

#6195 5 months ago
Quoted from ACDNate:

Upon reinstall the 5 optos come up on machine test results.

What does "come up" mean?

The optical beam should not be interrupted in the normal state. The switch should be closed. When you push the mushroom button it should block (interrupt) the optical beam. The switch should change state to open.

This should happen for all 5x mushroom button switches. These are switches 71 through 75. The other two switches in the column are 76 and 77. These are the ball locks switches. They should exhibit identical behavior except the mushroom button does not interrupt the optical beam. The ball does.

Please report state and behavior in the switch edge (T.1) test.

#6199 5 months ago
Quoted from rwarren28806:

Still tracking the ground short in row 1 of the switch matrix. White/brown wire. I noticed that the slam tilt on the coin door has been replaced because it's installed upside down. The switch is on this line. According to the manual there is a diode on each switch. This does not have one. Is there supposed to be one? There is one on the tilt switch on the bottom of the cabinet. Could this be the issue?

Quoted from rwarren28806:

In the picture on post 6178, at the bottom there is a connector for the slam tilt. I have a short in one of the wires and need to remove the pins from the male side of the connector. Can that be done or do I need to replace it?

You can also post images of what you have in front of you. That way people can see it rather than read your descriptions of it.

Have you tried the suggestion in https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/doctor-who-owners-clubtime-lords-welcome/page/124#post-7788161 as a differential diagnosis?

Nowadays, I generally only post a recommendation once. If a reader chooses to ignore it then that's all the advice they'll get from me. I'm kind of done with posting on deaf ears. You're lucky I am feeling charitable this morning.

Quoted from eyeamred2u:

chime in and give some advice here.

However, If asked or directed to a post then I will generally post. The same caveat applies, though. If asking for results or findings I will not follow up until I receive the requested information. There are a few instances where I have asked for results and then ... crickets.

The machine doesn't work. It's not my problem. It's not my responsibility to follow up. That might seem harsh or "tough love". It's reality. This forum is great for those that want to listen and take advice. It's free. The flipside of the fact that it's free is that means you (the poster or reader) are not entitled to anything. Including advice, and for some that includes prompt advice (which often seems to be the expectation from some forum members).

#6203 5 months ago
Quoted from rwarren28806:

Tests still shows short in switch row 1 (White/brown) so nothing in that row works.

Quoted from DumbAss:

Remove J3 from the 10-opto board and re-execute the switch edge test. Ignore the missing opto switches. Report your findings.

Did you try the suggested advice? Nothing seems to indicate that you did.

Quoted from rwarren28806:

Tracked it to broken wire somewhere between PCB and slam tilt. I believe it is in the connector.

A broken wire does not (typically) cause a ground short. It causes switches to not register. The only time it may cause a ground short is if the broken wire touches something connected to ground. This is HIGHLY unlikely since things are wired in parallel and this means that there are often TWO wires and both must maintain continuity for correct functionality. Broken wires just typically "flop in the breeze".

Quoted from rwarren28806:

Still does some weird things in single switch test but decided to get the short fixed first. (i.e. Break lower entry opto and the right pop bumper fires. (?))

You have to be more specific than "weird things". You also have to be more specific than "lower entry opto". Which switch is that? Are you referring to switch 72? That switch is named "Mini Opto 5 Bank Right 2". If testing that switch in test causes the right bumper to fire then it's something causing switch 62 (named "Right Jet") to close. IMHO, this points back to the 10-opto board. You can PROVE that the 10-opto board is the cause of you ground short by applying the requested test previously stated (twice now). Remove J3 from the 10-opto board and try your switch tests again.

#6205 5 months ago
Quoted from ACDNate:

In switch test the ball lock optos test as expected. None of the 5 opto bank optos respond.

Are they showing (in the "resting state") as closed (optical beam detected) or open (optical beam interrupted)?

They should show as closed (optical beam detected). If they are closed then it's more likely the problem is in the state detection. If they are open it is more likely to be the opto pairs.

Can you post an image of the what the DMD shows when you are in the switch edge test? Everything, as currently stated, points to the opto pairs (or wiring to opto pairs).

#6207 5 months ago
Quoted from ACDNate:

I just can't at the moment as I've pulled the opto switch board to test components to see if anything is wrong there. I cleaned it with isopropyl alcohol and want to be sure it's completely dry before putting any power to it.

No problem there at all. As I previously stated, I make a request for information. If it's not provided then I can't make the next diagnostic step (for you). Take your time. Post back when you have the information. I typically respond when I see posts but I don't always check for posts since I have other stuff going on (such as building boards).

Quoted from ACDNate:

On that note I went through and tested everything on the board.

Passive components (e.g. resistors, capacitors and diodes) rarely go bad. They can but it's rare. Diodes can fail if subject to more voltage or current than they are rated for. That is true for resistors and capacitors as well but when resistors and capacitors fail, they often fail more spectacularly (resistors can fry, tantalum capacitors will spark and burn and electrolytic capacitors can explode).

The more likely failures are the active components. In this case, the LM339 ICs.

As a rule of thumb, if you have identical circuits then all components in the circuit should measure in an identical fashion. In other words, the resistors should all measure the same resistance even though it may not be the actual rated value (by the color bands). The only true way to measure something is to measure it out of circuit. Sometimes though, the circuit is isolated enough that measuring in circuit is equivalent to measuring out of circuit.

When you do a static analysis (such as what you did) it's great for obvious failures. Dynamic (functional) failures can only be made when power is applied. Focus on the simple things first. Narrowing down WHERE the failure is in the chain of components. It may be that the problem is not even on the 10-opto board.

#6209 5 months ago
Quoted from rwarren28806:

P3 unplugged. No errors.

So, to confirm, with J3 disconnected from the 10-opto board, running the switch edge tests produces NO errors. For each (not an opto pair) switch, you only get ONE switch registering. Not just the ground short going away.

Quoted from rwarren28806:

P3 plugged in
Close OPTO switch 33. Pop bumper 62 fires.

If reconnecting J3 after successful switch edge testing reintroduces the problems then this isolates the problem to the 10-opto board. This is why I asked you to do the test a few days ago. This is not a personal attack but shows the reason why I stop bothering to help in most instances. I ask for something to be done and it's ignored.

Quoted from rwarren28806:

If you explain to me how to test components I can do that.

The switch matrix image you show is interesting because nothing in column 3 or 7 are showing closed (other than the ground short). Oh wait. You have the MPF disconnected. This is why switches 32, 71-77 are not present. Switches 31 and 33 are present because they are not related to the MPF.

The following applies only if the above assessment (isolating the issue to the 10-opto board) is confirmed.

It is most likely that you have an active component failure on the board. One of the LM339s. The LM339 units related to row 1 are U1D and U3C (according to the schematic). If you're comfortable with board work the quickest and easiest way to resolve this would be to just replace all the LM339 ICs. It's probably overkill but you could spend more time than it's worth it trying to figure out the exact unit that is failing. You can cut out the IC body (clip all the legs close to the body and remove the body) and then remove each individual leg IC. This should produce a clean (but destructive) removal of the LM339. Install a 14-pin (I prefer twin leaf) socket and then the LM339s. It should restore functionality.

Replacing the LM339s is probably the cheapest and most expedient way to restore your functionality. If you're uncomfortable with board work then you could send the board out for repair but the cost of shipping to/from and the repair may exceed the cost of a new replacement board. If you decide to purchase a replacement board, there are many manufacturers (and merchants) that sell this board. I can also build you one of mine (different circuitry and has LED indicators for each opto pair) if you are interested.

If you decide to purchase a replacement then just make sure you purchase the 10-opto board and not the "custom" 10-opto board that is used only in Twilight Zone. Also note there are two versions of the (standard) 10-opto board that are electrically identical. The difference is the physical size and mounting holes. The original (older) version of the board is horizontally mounted with plastic spacers. The more recent (newer) version of the board is bigger and mounted vertically with metal brackets. The bigger vertical mount board might fit in the allocated space under the playfield. Just be sure it does before committing to that purchase.

#6213 5 months ago
Quoted from eyeamred2u:

Hmmm, did I not say earlier LM339's on that 10 opto board, but I knew we would EVENTUALLY get back to it.

I agree that this is "full circle". It certainly doesn't hurt to statically test something. The issue with ICs is that you can do a static test and if it shows something "odd" (such as a shorted pin where there shouldn't be a shorted pin) then you can have confidence that the IC is at fault. If the static test shows nothing then you have no confidence saying the IC is working properly or at fault. A functional test (disconnect J3) will reveal a clearer path forward and is a really simple and easy test to do (literally disconnect a connector and re-test).

I prefer to have higher confidence (usually with empirical evidence) before making a recommendation that may be irreversible or destructive. Disconnecting J3 and repeating the test is that evidence. This is just my methodical and systematic approach to things. There's nothing wrong with assuming high odds causes and solutions.

There does come a point where there may be diminishing returns doing tests versus making progress. I think that knowing the problem is on the 10-opto board is enough. Going further to figure out which LM339 is at fault is nice but it's just too much to try to explain how to do it and theory of operation on a forum like this (often where a poster wants guidance and a solution rather than fully understanding how things work). Like everything in life, it's a balance of risk/reward and time invested/return on investment.

For the general reader:

Ultimately there is no right or wrong (correct or incorrect) way to resolve problems like this. There may be preferred methods based on experience or consensus. The only thing that matters is the problem is resolved.

  • Some people like to shotgun.
  • Some people like to educated guess (play the odds game) shotgun.
  • Some people like to be methodical and systematic.

Sometimes, shotgun takes the least amount of time and resolves the problem. Sometimes, it leads to more (introduced) problems and it take more time in the long run and requires "reverting" to the methodical/systematic approach. It's hard to say which one is better on average. Shotgunning may not always lead to the solution. Methodical/systematic almost always leads to the solution. The only time when methodical/systematic fails is when it reaches the limit of knowledge of the person applying the approach. In that case, get help.

#6216 5 months ago
Quoted from rwarren28806:

J3 Disconnected I get no errors. (See below)

I really hate being a stickler for detail but you still haven't stated that each switch (not an opto) only registers ONE switch. "no errors" may mean the empty state pictured. My definition is not an image. It's functionality. The switch matrix displayed in the edge test is correct but it's a static image. I can't see what happens when you close a switch. It's really easy for you to do this at the machine and see that it works. It's impossible for me to see it in an image. This is why you MUST describe this. I can only assume at this time that it is functionally correct (with J3 disconnected). Apologies for harking on about this but try to see it from my (or any other thread reader's) point of view where only text or static images are available.

Quoted from rwarren28806:

Upon closer inspection of the 10 opto board it looks like R40 and R41 are burned. (See below)

Those are 100k resistors. Pullups for the column drive. Not likely to fry. It's really hard to see without a flash or better illumination. I don't see anything wrong with them in that image. When resistors are exposed to excessive current (dissipate more power than they are rated for), they can either "fry" (too much too quickly) or "cook" (too much over a period of time). When they fry, they are often black or white and clearly destroyed. When they cook, they tend to go brown over the entire body rather than what appears to be at the edges. I can really say nothing definitive based on the image. It needs to be better illuminated.

Quoted from rwarren28806:

I tested the blue resistors (?) and they all read the same 14.8 on both sides except R25 and R31 which are 14.8 on the left leg and 1.4 on the right.

These appear to be voltage readings. R25 and R31 are used with switch 31 and switch 33. These transmitters are connected so I expect the voltage drop present. The others read the same on both sides since I assume the cam opto and the MPF are still disconnected.

Again, it's unlikely to be a passive component. If you want to measure resistors then you should measure the resistance not voltage drop across. Measure resistance with power off. I think you will find the big blues will measure around 270 Ohm. They should. Most of the other resistors will be 2k Ohm. There are some that will be 22k or 100k Ohm. Check the color bands or schematics and reference. To get the most accurate reading (best practices), you should disconnect all the connectors from the board since this will isolate the board as much as possible.

#6218 5 months ago
Quoted from rwarren28806:

P3 unplugged:
Switch 15 (left sling) and 16 (right sling) work but trigger flasher 06 (second chance) also.
Switches 61, 62 and 63 (jet bumpers) work but trigger flasher 06 (second chance) also.
Right flipper turns on F1, F2 and F6. F5 does not show as on.
Left flipper turns on F3, F4, F7 and F8 properly.
Switch 21 does not work.

  • Switch 15 (Left Sling) should trigger solenoid 09 (Left Sling).
  • Switch 16 (Right Sling) should trigger solenoid 10 (Right Sling).
  • Switch 61 (Left Jet) should trigger solenoid 11 (Left Jet).
  • Switch 62 (Right Jet) should trigger solenoid 12 (Right Jet).
  • Switch 63 (Bottom Jet) should trigger solenoid 13 (Bottom Jet).
  • None of them should trigger solenoid 06 (2nd Chance Logo, Flasher).
  • Let's deal with switch 21 (Slam Tilt) separately. I think it's wise to deal with ONE issue at a time. It's a little slower but it's methodical and things won't get dropped or forgotten.

I think you have some other issue going on if you are getting solenoid 06 firing. That's just wrong. Couple of follow up questions:

  1. What does the solenoid test (T.4) do? Do all the correct solenoids fire when directed by software?
  2. Do the switches (15/16/61/62/63) show the correct change in the switch matrix when triggered in switch edges (T.1)?
Quoted from rwarren28806:

Retake of resistors with better lighting.

I think that's dirt (solenoid dust). Use your finger and rub the dark parts at the edges of the body. I suspect that the dirt will wipe off onto your finger.

Quoted from rwarren28806:

Should mention that the PCB has been replaced (Rottendog)

Much as I don't like Rottendog, the fact that it's RD is probably not related. There may be something connected incorrectly but that has nothing to do with the manufacturer. Given the above response with solenoid 06, I would post some images of the wiring and connections. It may or may not be useful.

Quoted from rwarren28806:

Machine is an import from New Zealand.

Almost certainly not relevant. I assume someone moved the transformer primary from 230V to 115V.

#6222 5 months ago
Quoted from rwarren28806:

The 5 switches (15,16,61,62,63) all do trigger their respective solenoids. My overly simplistic explanation of "works" is my error. Please don't get frustrated with me, I promise to do better.

Quoted from rwarren28806:

Switch 15 (left sling) and 16 (right sling) work but trigger flasher 06 (second chance) also.

The issue is when I read the word "work" in the (second) quote, I read that the switch works (registers in the switch test) but instead of firing solenoid 09/10 it fires solenoid 06. The word "work" was applied to the switch not the solenoid.

I'm not frustrated. It takes practice to communicate precisely and accurately in text. I make ambiguous statements all the time. It's easy to overlook. Unfortunately when troubleshooting, precision and accuracy are required.

Quoted from rwarren28806:

The 15/16/61/62/63 switches do show the correct change in the switch matrix T.1.

Only one switch registers and it registers correctly. That's definitive proof the issue with the double switch registering is isolated to the 10-opto board. If you still had double switch registering it would point to the CPU board (or playfield). This is why I wanted confirmation.

Quoted from rwarren28806:

Solenoid test T.4 very interesting result. Each fires as it should PLUS 2nd Chance Logo flasher for everyone.

Quoted from rwarren28806:

What/which wiring do you want to start with? Wife asleep so I will get that tomorrow.

Power Driver board. The big board at the bottom right. Images of the board as a whole and images focused on the connector groups. Top/center (power out to playfield) and bottom rows (power in from playfield). I think you have a connector plugged into the wrong location but I would like to see to be sure. Images should be in focus and well illuminated. Wire colors need to be visible.

#6225 5 months ago
Quoted from rwarren28806:

the connectors were not plugged in correctly when I got it. Connector supposedly to be in J206 was in J207. J208 was in J209. Just verifying that they are correct now or the manual is incorrect.

This won't matter. J206 and J207 are identical and for switch columns (GRN-xxx wires). J208 and J209 are identical and for switch rows (WHT-xxx wires).

The good news is that I can see nothing out of place in your power board connections. I was concerned about the 5-pin connectors for solenoid drives but they good. There are labels attached to them. Make sure they are plugged into the labeled header (assuming the labels are correct).

The bad news is with that information I cannot explain what you are seeing.

The next question I need to ask (and it's actually the very first question anyone offering assistance should ask) is ... what is the history of this machine? I assume the machine was working properly before and no changes were made to any aspect of the machine and the machine suddenly exhibited the behavior (multiple switches registering) you are reporting but you should explain anything that was done if anything was done.

The reason I ask is that I cannot think of an obviously common failure that would explain every solenoid in the solenoid test also firing solenoid 06 - from an electrical and control standpoint. Incorrect wiring can cause anything. I have had people ask for help who previously performed a re-wiring but it wasn't correct causing all sorts of "weird" behavior (such as a solenoid firing with another solenoid when it should not). The re-wiring was not volunteered until I asked. You can also post images of the wiring of solenoid 06 in the playfield.

There could still be a common failure that someone else can see. If that's the case, I welcome the input. I sometimes get "tunnel vision" and miss other obvious things.

#6229 5 months ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

If all the solenoids are firing #6 then its possible that the problem is with #6.

Sure. There still needs to be a path to ground for the flasher to flash. It has to be controlled since it is flashing in unison with the other solenoids.

Quoted from rwarren28806:

Looking through the manual, something is fishy or I’m reading it wrong. Page 2-47 indicates 4 flashers but there are only 2. If you go to the solenoid wiring diagram page 3-8, J131 pin 3 shows violet/green wire. I have violet/blue. J130 pin 7 also shows violet/blue which I have. Both show connecting to 2nd chance/logo solenoids 6 at 2 different locations in the diagram.

Manuals are known to have errors. It's not often but they do exist. There is a pattern and things can be discerned from that pattern using the manual as a guide. If you show me what you have with an image, I can make a better assessment. Remember, the same thing applies as previously stated. You can see what is in front of you. Nobody else can. Therefore, if there is something wrong with the wiring then nobody else will see it.

#6237 5 months ago
Quoted from ACDNate:

I'm still developing my troubleshooting and decision making on how to approach each issue I encounter.

Is your issue resolved? I know that there were two active issues with MPF and optos at the same time.

One of my pet peeves on this forum is lack of resolution. I see members posting for help, receiving the help and then crickets. Did the help resolve the issue? Is something further required? If the issue was resolved what was the cause and the solution? The reason for posting this is to allow a reader in the future to be able to use the information to help them resolve a potentially similar issue. It is intended to prevent a member posting another question about the same issue. Of course, this prevention only works if the member actually searches and reads responses.

#6244 5 months ago
Quoted from rwarren28806:

I traced J131-3, to a bulb on the back box (pic 1 & 2) black connector. Wire is Violet/blue (pic 3). Not sure why manual says Violet/green.

The manual show VIO-GRN because it's wrong. There is only one (black) flasher socket in the backbox?

Quoted from rwarren28806:

J130-7 goes to the Last Chance as it should.

This is the playfield bulb. You state there are two. Can you show the wiring to me?

Quoted from rwarren28806:

They do not intersect anywhere.

Actually, they do. They intersect on the power driver board (when both connectors are installed).

Quoted from rwarren28806:

Removed and inspected Power Driver Board Nothing unusual on the back side.

I know this is going to sound insulting but it would have been nice to see images of the solder side. I have seen many members post "nothing wrong with this board" or "no alkaline corrosion present" and there is often an obvious issue. Your eyes may not see it but someone else's eyes might. I know it's hard to keep this in mind but remember that nobody else can see what is in front of you. If you're asking the reader to accept your assessment then why are you asking for help? I have seen many similar things in other areas of life, not just electrical troubleshooting in a pinball machine. I saw it a LOT in a job I used to work. People would work through debugging some software issue, eventually coming to me for help and stating "I did this and found nothing" but when the work was verified there was an issue that was not recognized causing the problem. I'm not saying that you missed something, I'm just saying that getting a second opinion requires seeing the actual state.

If you still have the power board out of the machine then post images. If you have put it back in and reconnected everything then disconnect J131 (the 5-pin connector with the VIO-BLU and VIO-GRY wires) and run the solenoid test again and report the findings. Is there a change in behavior? I still cannot see something that is a single failure point that would cause solenoid 06 to fire with every other solenoid which is what you are reporting is your observed behavior. Always attempt to find a single failure point that explains all symptoms reported. It is possible there are multiple failure points but diagnosis always looks for a single failure point first.

#6251 5 months ago
Quoted from ACDNate:

I see the two side by side closed switches on right if matrix are the lock optos. When I interrupt the light they turn off(square goes away). Pushing the mushrooms doesn't do anything.

SW76 and SW77 operate correctly by that description.

SW71-SW75 are not operational. This is most likely to be the opto pairs or the wiring to the opto pairs. Unfortunately, BOTH sides (transmitter and receiver) have to work to even get a switch state detection. It's unlikely to be switch state detection since SW76/SW77 work. It hasn't been ruled out. If you want to rule out switch state detection then short the collector to emitter of the pins on the 10-opto board.

You may have posted the images before. If so, feel free to link to them. The opto board connectors and the MPF connectors need to be assessed. Taking apart some part of the MPF may also be required. Please post images of the wiring of what you have at this time. If you feel inclined then take the MPF out and post some of the wiring the opto boards.

1 week later
#6279 5 months ago
Quoted from rwarren28806:

Replaced 10-opto board and the issues associated with that have been resolved.

You replaced the 10-opto board with one from another manufacturer? I'm a little disappointed since I have a reproduction (redesign) of this board that is available. Kind of reduces the incentive to help since help is often reciprocal. Each post costs me about 15-30 minutes or reading, assessing and typing. That's 15-30 minutes I could have spent building a board for someone else.

Quoted from rwarren28806:

Playfield bulb wiring picture for below.

It looks like you have installed a #555 bulb instead of a #906 bulb. Yes. They are LEDs but there are #555 LEDs and #906 LEDs.

Quoted from rwarren28806:

J131 disconnected. All solenoids fire as well as 06 flasher associated with 130-7 on the playfield.
Reconnected J131 and disconnected J130 and reran solenoid test. Solenoid 09, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, and 16 all fired as they were not associated with violet wires from J130 (J127 Brown/xxx). The blackbox flasher attached to J131-3 DOES light. [quoted image]

Sorry. It's been so long since your last post that everything on this topic got "paged out". I have to page it back in. That means I need to spend even more time going back over old posts. Time that could be spent ...

Note that "All solenoids fire as well as 06 flasher associated with 130-7 on the playfield." is ambiguous. It could mean that only each solenoid 01-08 energizes and only the associated solenoid. A single solenoid energizes. It could also mean that each solenoid 01-08 energizes and solenoid 06 energizes with each energization of solenoid 01-08. Two solenoids energize.

Results as you describe. Confirm?

  • 01 -> 01 + 06
  • 02 -> 02 + 06
  • 03 -> 03 + 06
  • 04 -> 04 + 06
  • 05 -> 05 + 06
  • 06 -> 06
  • 07 -> 07 + 06
  • 08 -> 08 + 06
  • 09 -> 09 + 06
  • ...
  • 16 -> 16 + 06
  • 17 -> 17 + 06
  • ...
  • 24 -> 24 + 06
  • 25 -> 25 + 06
  • ...
  • 28 -> 28 + 06

Connector state changes results:

  • With J130 connected and J131 DISconnected, flasher 06 on the playfield flashes (as above) but flasher 06 in the backbox does NOT.
  • With J130 DISconnected and J131 connected, flasher 06 on the playfield does NOT flash but flasher 06 in the backbox does flash.

That would indicate there's a problem somewhere either on the board with J130 or in the wiring. I must be blind because I still cannot see a single failure that would indicate this. This is one of those situations where it would be wise to test the power board in isolation on a bench (or with a portable diagnostic rig) to differentiate between playfield and board.

2 weeks later
#6310 4 months ago
Quoted from Tophervette:

Where does the 10 Opto board get the 5 volts and 12 volts in the back box. I am guessing that J1 on the Opto board is where the power comes in.

opto_switch_10.jpgopto_switch_10.jpg
1 week later
#6314 4 months ago
Quoted from rwarren28806:

If it is failing, can it be repaired or is it worth fixing?
Pictures of the board below:

Thank you for the in focus images.

You have electrolyte leak from the electrolytic capacitor. The yellow box shows the damage zone. The red box shows the actual damage. It's hit the traces (hidden by the capacitor) as well as the visible traces and the legs of the LM339 comparator.

motor_board.jpgmotor_board.jpg

If you want to repair it:

  • Remove the electrolytic capacitor.
  • Remove the bypass ceramic capacitor (the yellow thing to the right of the LM339).
  • Remove the LM339. Suggest you cut the legs, remove the body and then remove each individual leg.
  • Clean up the electrolytic leak damage.
  • Inspect and test continuity between damaged points.
  • Re-install removed components. Suggest you install a 14-pin socket instead of installing the LM339 directly on the board.

It's a simple repair if you have the experience. If you want to gain the experience then this board is a cheap enough board that has available replacements for you to experiment on.

The electronics on this board were not stressed. They were damaged by the electrolyte leak from the electrolytic capacitor.

#6316 4 months ago
Quoted from rwarren28806:

Just making sure. Do I reinstall both the capacitors or replace them with new ones?

Sorry. Re-install could be interpreted as re-install "old" components. Do NOT use contaminated or damaged components. Purchase new ones.

bom.jpgbom.jpg

  • U1 = LM339
  • C2 = 100uF@35V 20% (101M) electrolytic
  • B = 0.01uF@50V 20% (103M) ceramic - can use 103Z since it is a bypass and tolerance is not super important

All electronics merchants will carry these parts. They are common.

#6328 4 months ago
Quoted from rwarren28806:

Only thing I see which is strange is when I power off the machine the lower second chance flashers light and then dim slowly. I can only speculate on what that can be.

If you replaced the #555s with #906s and you are still having an issue then you probably still have to do more investigation. I don't believe the behavior you're describing is normal and expected.

The switch matrix state looks normal with the balls loaded into the trough and the playfield glass in place. Others who have much more experience with the MPF have already chimed in (above). If I were working on this, I would raise the MPF, enter switch test and push each mushroom button to see if the opto pair state changes. If the opto pair state changes then there's nothing wrong. If you can't push the button or the button doesn't appear to interrupt the opto then you have a mechanical, not an electrical problem.

#6331 4 months ago
Quoted from ACDNate:

Pushing the mushrooms in doesn't change the state of the switch.
Could the 30 year old opto board be causing this?

I don't believe so. Reason: in order for the software to see the opto pair as closed, the opto board and opto pair MUST be working.

  • The LED transmitter provides the IR source for the phototransistor.
  • The phototransistor only conducts current when IR light falls on the base (exposed in the phototransistor).
  • Conducting current creates a voltage at the emitter end of the phototransistor.
  • The voltage created is detected by the state detection logic on the opto board.
  • The signal is translated to the switch matrix as a closed switch.

In circumstances where the opto pairs are removed (disconnected) or the opto board is removed (disconnected) the switch goes open. Open is the default case. Based on all of this, it doesn't appear the cause is electrical.

Suggest:

  • Remove the MPF so that you can see and access the opto pair carrier.
  • Connect only the opto (12-pin) Molex connector.
  • Enter switch edge (T.1) test.
  • Manually press the mushroom button and see what it does. It should block the opto beam and change the opto pair switch state.
  • Alternatively, put something else (perhaps your finger or a block of wood) to block the opto beam and note the opto pair switch state. Does it change or not? If it does not change state despite obvious opto beam blocking then disconnect the receiver (blue board) connector at the board (assuming you are using the header). This should make all the opto pairs go open. If it does not then there's soemthing else going on.

I recommend you perform the suggestions and report back. You don't have to if you don't want to, of course. I can't help further without more information. You can always shotgun replace the opto board if you want but there's no indication that there's anything wrong with it.

#6333 4 months ago
Quoted from ACDNate:

So are you suggesting removing the opto carrier from the mpf to test? I'm not sure I understand what variable I would be eliminating as compared to testing it installed with mpf raised

The purpose is to exclude the mushroom button. With the MPF installed, you cannot see the actual button actuation to block the opto beam. The only way to be sure is to observe the action.

You can also disconnect J2 (9-pin 0.156" with ORG wires) from the opto board. This should cause all the optos in column 7 to go open. If this happens then there's nothing wrong with the opto board. It's a physical problem where the opto beam is not being interrupted.

#6337 4 months ago
Quoted from ACDNate:

That makes way more sense.

For the general audience: here is a list of points to remember when troubleshooting.

  • For features to work correctly, both mechanical and electrical have to work properly. Some electrical problems can be sorted by diagnostics (often provided by software or hardware - indicator LEDs).
  • You (typically) cannot fix an electrical problem with a mechanical solution nor can you fix a mechanical problem with an electrical solution. Figure out what kind of problem you are dealing with.
  • "Divide and conquer" is the principle. Divide things up to try to separate mechanical from electrical. Once you have established what kind of problem it is then divide it further. You can think of this like a form of binary search.
  • Sometimes, there are both mechanical and electrical problems present. They can mask each other and make the problem more difficult. This is where "divide and conquer" comes in. Fixing one problem at a time will unmask each subsequent problem. For each subsequent problem, you should always "reset" to the beginning of the diagnostic flowchart (i.e. go back to mechanical or electrical).
  • Only by being systematic are you guaranteed to find the actual cause and solution. If you randomly try things (i.e. shotgun) you won't have any references nor controls to do any comparison. Everything becomes a guess. Shotgun replacement can provide data points but it can be an expensive way to go about troubleshooting. Replacing Coin Door Interface boards and/or CPU boards (not related to this particular problem) is (IMHO) a waste of money.

I am not trying to preach here. Anyone can approach a problem however they want. I have found that being systematic is the only way I can guarantee finding the cause and solution. The more complicated the system involved, the more systematic you must be.

#6342 4 months ago
Quoted from ACDNate:

Opto 74 doesn't react when I block it with a finger or paper.

Bad opto seems unlikely as the switch registers as closed in test.

Not necessarily true. The software sees the output of the state logic detection circuit. The state detection circuit responds to the opto pair state. If the detection circuit is incorrectly outputting a fixed (incorrect) result regardless of the opto pair state then you haven't differentiated between the opto pair and the detection circuit.

Quoted from ACDNate:

Could the resistor cause this or perhaps a bad opto?

It depends on which resistor is failing.

Quoted from ACDNate:

So looking back to this post I see I had 2 resistors that seemed a bit off, R33 and R35.
Attempting to trace these to what they go to it's nor clear they directly relate to the opto not working, but im still relatively green reading these schematics

10-opto_column_comparators.jpg10-opto_column_comparators.jpg

Those two resistors are used in the reference for the column output. It should not affect ONLY SW74.

I think the next step forward is to try to establish between the opto pair and the detection circuit.

  • Enter switch edge (T.1) test.
  • Disconnect J2 on the 10-opto board. This should cause all the switches in column 7 to go open. If it does not then there's your problem with SW74. If SW74 stays on then you have a board problem.
  • Verify each individual phototransistor by shorting (jumping with test leads) between J2-9 and each pin J2-1 to J2-8 skipping J2-6 as that is the key pin. For each pin you short to J2-9 this should cause the corresponding switch to close. If it does not then you have a board problem.

You have the machine powered so be careful not to touch stray or errant points with your test leads. There is little to no risk doing this if you stick to the points to be connected. This test MUST be done with the power on. While doing this test in switch edges, listen to the corresponding sound produced by the software when the state changes. You do not need to see the display (but can if you want - just be careful to touch only the specified points with your test lead).

I also have test equipment (boards) that will do this in much safer manner but that is overkill if you don't do troubleshooting too much. I just like to have clean solutions to solving problems. There is nothing wrong with using test leads. Just take care to avoid errant shorts.

#6344 4 months ago
Quoted from ACDNate:

So jumping J2-9 to the remaining pins on j2 results in all switches closing.
So that means board is working right?

Yes. This rules out the board. When you are jumping the pins, you are doing exactly what IR light falling on the base of the phototransistor does. The IR light causes the phototransistor to conduct current between the collector and emitter. Your jumper wire causes current to flow between the virtual collector and virtual emitter.

Check the opto pairs. This can be tough to do individually. If you pull the opto boards out of the carrier you "shift" the position of the transmitter and receivers. By this, I mean that under normal circumstances, transmitter 1 is aligned to receiver 1 through to transmitter 5 aligned to receiver 5. If you "shift" the boards such that transmitter 1 is aligned to receiver 2, you can test each component by using the fact that one of them can be considered a "known good". If you can rotate one of the boards 90 degrees you can isolate all the other transmitters from the receivers. By putting the rotated board into the carrier you can reduce stray light interfering with your test. Note, I have not done this myself. I have my own test equipment for this but it operates on the same principle of using one known good component on each side of the transmitter/receiver and using that to test the other components of the other side.

Note that the problem can be either the electronic component (transmitter or receiver) or the wiring between the 10-opto board and the electronic component. You can exclude the wiring by checking continuity from the connector wire (J2 at the opto board) and the electronic component in the MPF.

#6348 4 months ago
Quoted from ACDNate:

Ok so I moved the mpf and optos back to the top of the playfield. Much easier to deal with.
In playing with trying different transmitters with receivers I have found that I can make 74 activate briefly with mushroom post and finger blocking. It doesn't stay open though, it will only open for a second and then immediately close again. The other optos stay open when blocked.

If you know that the transmitter is known good and when moving between different combinations only shows an issue with SW74 then all the evidence points to SW74. Since the failure is not a definitive failure but rather a form of intermittent failure, you won't be able to draw a definitive conclusion.

Everything you have reported points to the SW74 receiver. I know I test my boards before I send them out but things can happen in transportation. It clearly works but it appears to not work consistently (based on your reporting).

One final thing before I take this offline to work out the next path forward on the board, are you covering the transmitter (green board or pink LED) or the receiver (blue board or black "LED") with your finger? Can you put some kind of cloth of something similar on the RECEIVER side and see if that makes it consistent rather than intermittent? Doing this will rule out stray light. If the receiver is completely blacked out and still behaves as if it is conducting (light falling on the base) then there's an electrical problem with the phototransistor. Stray light no matter how small must be ruled out. I say this because when I do my testing, I have to completely black out the receiver to get consistent validation.

1 month later
#6402 3 months ago
Quoted from Tophervette:

it is just hiding the real problem with your board.

Correct. It's actually worse than just hiding the problem.

Quoted from Tophervette:

"Resets happen on WPC pinball machines because the Driver Board's 5 volt power supply is minimally sized for the many functions it needs to drive and MPU Boards have a watchdog circuit that shuts down the board if the voltage on the 5 volt line drops below a cutoff voltage (around 4.7 volts). The WPC Power Fix eliminates watchdog resets by moving the MPU load off the 5 volt line to the 12 volt line. This reliably satisfies the watchdog circuit and therefore the MPU board is not reset."

Before getting into the weeds with a TL;DR:

The most common cause of resets is headers/connectors either at any or all of J101, J114 and J210.

And now to the TL;DR.

The above statement from the manufacturer is true but not the whole truth. It omits one important thing. The load has to be satisfied from some source - no matter what the source.

What do I mean by this? Well, if the 5V supply is borderline (fails under heavy peak load), you can mask it by using the regulated 12V supply. The issue is that the load that would be drawn by the 5V supply is now applied to the regulated 12V supply. It might work during the immediate period after you install the device. However, since you shifted the load to the regulated 12V supply, you are now using the regulated 12V supply beyond its (presumed) designed maximum. The regulated 12V will likely fail at some point in the future (since it is now being used beyond design limits). When the regulated 12V supply fails, you will be back at the "reset" scenario.

Only this time, you will have TWO failures that you need to deal with.

Is this board the correct solution for some people? It may be for those that don't care too much about the next person or those that want their machine running immediately (such as an operator). Ultimately, it's your machine so you do what you want. In a pinball buying market that has now disappeared, I would have immediately taken $50 off asking price if I saw one of these installed in a machine. It shows to me that the owner doesn't care for their machine.

For those more technically inclined at power ratings and such, note that P=VI (power equals voltage multiply by current).

  • The LM323K is rated for 5V @ 3A (15W).
  • The LM7812 (L7812CV) is rated for 12V @ 1.5A (18W).
  • The regulated 12V output is set to 0.75A through F115. The fuse is slow blow so the 0.75A current can be exceeded for short period of time.
  • If the draw on the LM323K is maximum this leaves 3W available for the normal regulated 12V use. This means I=P/V or I=3/12 or 0.25A. This means that what would normally be a maximum of 0.75A for regulated 12V is now 0.25A for regulated 12V.

The bottom line is that if you shift supply from one source to another without correcting the fault, you are paying for the deficiency by over taxing another part of the system. The solution: fix the problem. Don't play footsie with another supply.

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