(Topic ID: 236361)

Doctor Who Mini Playfield No Switches Working - UPDATE!


By pinlink

4 months ago



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  • 33 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by pinball_faz
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#1 4 months ago

I had a bad opto on switch 75 on the mini playfield.

I pulled the playfield out, replaced the bad opto (it was completely broken off), and put the playfield back in.

Upon startup, the game goes through test and the playfield moves as it should, and the two saucers eject. So there is power to the mini playfield.

However, in test mode, no switches on the MP work. None. Not the lite lock target, any of the opto targets, the saucer optos, nothing.

I have taken the MP out and back in multiple times now with no change.

What am I missing? Is there something that I should check that controls ALL switches to the Mini Playfield?

Thanks for any help/advice.

#2 4 months ago

Do they have a common wire broken from them to the CPU ?

LTG : )

#3 4 months ago

There are about 7 different connectors to disconnect/connect when removing and replacing the mini playfield. I'm not seeing any one wire that connects them all but I hope I'm wrong, as that sounds like an easy fix.

Anyone know?

#4 4 months ago

Run a full switch test... ALL of them with a ball. Opto or not.

Report back; let's rule out a matrix issue or bad power on the opto circuit. If localized to the MPF, it's probably a connector, broken wire or cold solder joint.
faz

#5 4 months ago
Quoted from pinball_faz:

Run a full switch test... ALL of them with a ball. Opto or not.
Report back; let's rule out a matrix issue or bad power on the opto circuit. If localized to the MPF, it's probably a connector, broken wire or cold solder joint.
faz

Thanks, fax. Just went through the test again and checked every switch. I can confirm that ALL switches work as they should EXCEPT ALL switches on the mini playfield.

#6 4 months ago

Great! It confirms the issue is local.

Sounds like you've pulled the MPF out a few times. One more won't kill you

If you pull out the mushroom switch optos you can plug the connector back in the game to run the camera test. Optos are always on, so you should see them light in the camera. If not, that's a place to start looking. While it's out, run continuity tests from the COMPONENT to the tip of the connector. You're looking for a bad connector, broken wire or a cold solder joint.

As Lloyd pointed out... there is a common +12v and common ground. Do you have my white paper? Look at page #15
Those solder joints should be your first stop.

What about the other optos in the MPF? There's one in the bottom of the cam and one in each lock socket. Make sure you know this status before you pull the MPF.

faz

#7 4 months ago
Quoted from pinball_faz:

Great! It confirms the issue is local.
Sounds like you've pulled the MPF out a few times. One more won't kill you
If you pull out the mushroom switch optos you can plug the connector back in the game to run the camera test. Optos are always on, so you should see them light in the camera. If not, that's a place to start looking. While it's out, run continuity tests from the COMPONENT to the tip of the connector. You're looking for a bad connector, broken wire or a cold solder joint.
As Lloyd pointed out... there is a common <rc-c2d-number data-rc-number="+12">+12</rc-c2d-number>v and common ground. Do you have my white paper? Look at page #15
Those solder joints should be your first stop.
What about the other optos in the MPF? There's one in the bottom of the cam and one in each lock socket. Make sure you know this status before you pull the MPF.
faz

OK pulled out the MP again...

Checked for continuity from each of the solder joints pointed out in your whitepaper on page 15 and all tested good. By the way, THANK YOU for putting that together, very useful!

I have not plugged it back in without the mushroom targets to run the camera test, but I will this afternoon. The MP is still on the table.

As for the other optos on the MPF, they WERE working before I pulled it and changed out the bad opto (sw 75). Now nothing works on the MP at all. Except when the game boots up, the saucer ejects fire and the MP moves up and down as it should. During test, none of the optos (or even the lite lock target on the MP) register at all.

#8 4 months ago

Ok, I just re-installed the mini play field and did the camera test. Now in test mode I’m getting an error on switches 71 through 75. I do not see any of the transmitters lit up looking through the camera .

#9 4 months ago

ok... cool.. that means you're not getting power to the opto emitters.

I think the wires to the MPF for those optos are J1 and J2 on the Opto 10 board. Check Page 3-12 in Manual (the real one... not mine).

Check the connection there and run a continuity test from the connector on the board to the end or the 12 pin connector to the game. The +12V is the critical one here... since they are all out.

faz

#10 4 months ago
Quoted from pinball_faz:

ok... cool.. that means you're not getting power to the opto emitters.
I think the wires to the MPF for those optos are J1 and J2 on the Opto 10 board. Check Page 3-12 in Manual (the real one... not mine).
Check the connection there and run a continuity test from the connector on the board to the end or the 12 pin connector to the game. The <rc-c2d-number data-rc-number="+12">+12</rc-c2d-number>V is the critical one here... since they are all out.
faz

OK, I just looked at the Opto 10 board and visually everything looks ok. No broken wires, the LED on the board is lit up.

When you say "Check the connection there and run a continuity test from the connector on the board to the end or the 12 pin connector to the game", can you explain which "connector on the board" you are referring to and which "12 pin connector to the game"? Sorry, I am not that experienced. Is there a specific wire or wire color I should be paying close attention to?

Thanks so much for the help so far!

#11 4 months ago

The MP does have (at least some) power because the lights work and the solenoids are firing. Just no optos or switches register.

Also, when I first replaced the opto on sw75, I put it in backwards which caused a "ground short row 1" error, but I have since changed it to be correct and that message has gone away. Not sure if that matters.

Now I just get the error message on sw 71-75. And of course the saucer optos, and lite lock switch also do not work.

#12 4 months ago

check continuity from the J1/J2 connector on the 10 opto board to the big 12 pin connector. It's the big square one that goes to the MPF. It's the one I feature in my white paper.

On that connector there is one common +12V and one common ground. The rest of the wires are for connecting the switches for the opto receivers. There's another connector for the ejects and the optos in the lock holes AND the motor. Hence why the connector bundle is a hot mess

Given it worked before I'm really hopeful it's a bad connector or a broken wire... something simple.

oh, visual inspection of the 10-opto board won't do it. you need to pull connectors and test things out. Actually, the act of reseating the connector may fix the issue but at that point you want to consider replacing the connector.

faz

#13 4 months ago
Quoted from pinball_faz:

check continuity from the J1/J2 connector on the 10 opto board to the big 12 pin connector. It's the big square one that goes to the MPF. It's the one I feature in my white paper.
On that connector there is one common <rc-c2d-number data-rc-number="+12">+12</rc-c2d-number>V and one common ground. The rest of the wires are for connecting the switches for the opto receivers. There's another connector for the ejects and the optos in the lock holes AND the motor. Hence why the connector bundle is a hot mess
Given it worked before I'm really hopeful it's a bad connector or a broken wire... something simple.
oh, visual inspection of the 10-opto board won't do it. you need to pull connectors and test things out. Actually, the act of reseating the connector may fix the issue but at that point you want to consider replacing the connector.
faz

Thanks again!

Ok, tested for continuity from the Gray wire (J2-9, the 12V) to the 12 pin connector that plugs into the MP (not the one attached to the MP). I also tested the Black wire (J1-9) to the same 12 pin connector and both have continuity.

I also tested continuity from the MP 12 pin plug (attached to MP) to the actual solder joints of the optos and transmitters and also got continuity.

#14 4 months ago

I also tested continuity from Gray-Yellow (J3-2, 12V) to J118-2 on the CPU and got continuity there as well.

#15 4 months ago

When you check continuity, test to the component leg, not the solder pad. If there's a cold solder joint you could miss. Also, check all the wires.

Do you have +12V on the J2-9??

Unless there's some coincidental failure there should be a continuity break somewhere. Have you had any battery leakage on the CPU board in the past? IF so, does it look like there is any missed oooze?

Perhaps a conversation is in order. Where are you located? I can give you a call this weekend.
faz

#16 4 months ago
Quoted from pinball_faz:

When you check continuity, test to the component leg, not the solder pad. If there's a cold solder joint you could miss. Also, check all the wires.

OK, I'll go back and check it this way. Just seems strange if the reason no switches(optos) are working would be a new cold or broken solder joint, but I'll definitely check. Also, would one bad solder joint cause ALL optos on the MP to not work?

Quoted from pinball_faz:

Do you have +12V on the J2-9??

Checked just now and yes I do. 13.3 to be exact.

Quoted from pinball_faz:

Perhaps a conversation is in order. Where are you located? I can give you a call this weekend.

Same Time Zone as you, that would be great if I don't work it out by then. Thanks for your help so far!

I'm starting to wish I had just left it as it was with one bad opto at sw 75. Everything was working great, just that one opto. Now the game is unplayable.

#17 4 months ago
Quoted from pinball_faz:

Unless there's some coincidental failure there should be a continuity break somewhere. Have you had any battery leakage on the CPU board in the past? IF so, does it look like there is any missed oooze?

Also on this, yes the CPU had some battery leakage and was effecting the game (ground shorts on multiple rows).

However, I have since replaced the CPU with a known working (and very clean) CPU. With this new CPU I had the game completely working other than the one opto sw75. Now here we are after I tried to fix the one bad opto. If only I had a time machine...

#18 4 months ago
Quoted from pinlink:

Also on this, yes the CPU had some battery leakage and was effecting the game (ground shorts on multiple rows).
However, I have since replaced the CPU with a known working (and very clean) CPU. With this new CPU I had the game completely working other than the one opto sw75. Now here we are after I tried to fix the one bad opto. If only I had a time machine...

Corrosion on the female connectors? repin the connectors. Did this on mine, similar errors and I put in new MPU, had errors until I fixed connectors. Hope you can solve this problem.

#19 4 months ago
Quoted from eyeamred2u:

Corrosion on the female connectors?

None that I could see. But yeah, I can go ahead and replace those as well just to rule it out. Just strange that everything was working well, then after my attempted repair, everything went to crap. Still, I will replace them.

#20 4 months ago
Quoted from eyeamred2u:

orrosion on the female connectors? repin the connectors.

Actually, I just examined the female connectors again and they look super clean and shiny. The corrosion never made it down that far.

#21 4 months ago
Quoted from pinball_faz:

When you check continuity, test to the component leg, not the solder pad. If there's a cold solder joint you could miss. Also, check all the wires.

So, I have essentially already checked that because I checked from each component leg to the solder pad and all had continuity. I also checked from the solder pads to the pins on the molex connector like in your whitepaper successfully.

I also just checked continuity at all pins at J3 on the Opto 10 board to the CPU. As well as J1-9 to the CPU. All have continuity.

I am lost as to what the issue could possibly be at this point.

#22 4 months ago

Wow... and it all still fails the camera test?

PM Me some times to chat. I think a call might inspire something.
faz

#23 4 months ago

UPDATE!

First, thanks to everyone that has posted in this thread and provided help with this problem.
And a huge THANK YOU to Faz. Faz has gone above and beyond to help me with this problem, including talking to me on the phone and face timing with me to help resolve this issue. Faz, you are a great person and I hope to meet you face to face some day.

I believe we have isolated the problem. I think it is actually a CPU problem, not the Mini Playfield. Here is the timeline of events best I can recall:

-I bought this game and it had a row of switches out (row 7) and switch 75 was not working as well.
-Open up the game to see that there is battery damage on the CPU
-Replaced the CPU with a known working one from my TZ, and now row 7 switches work, but still switch 75 is out.
-Take out the Mini Playfield to find that the LED is broken off at Switch 75.
-Replaced the LED and turned the game on only to find that I had put the LED in backwards which caused errors.
-Replaced the LED and put it in correctly this time, and turned the game back on
-Now All optos and switches on the Mini Playfield do not work (Column 7).
-After going over everything with Faz, I was stumped and decided to put the CPU back into TZ to see if anything had changed. And it did.
-Now the CPU in TZ is throwing errors. And the switches that are not working on TZ are all optos! And it is the same Column of switches in the matrix that is
not working!
-This makes me think that when I replaced the LED incorrectly and turned the game on, something happened to the CPU...?? (is that possible?)

I am hoping that by replacing the CPU with a new one, it will fix the issues I am having with the Mini Playfield. Of course now I have two bad CPU's. I ordered a new rottendog CPU and plan to first put it in the TZ, and if it fixes the TZ errors, I will try it in the DW and pray that all of my problems go away.

Also, does anyone know what specifically would be wrong with the CPU to cause the same Column of switches to be out in both games?

My thought was that is was U19 causing ROW 7 to be out initially, because there was damage there. The working CPU from TZ fixed that row of switches.
Is it possible that now the problem is at U20 since it is now COLUMN 7 that is not working? Would installing a backwards LED cause issues with U20, which would effect Column 7?

Thanks again for everyone's help. I will keep you all posted once I receive the new CPU.

DW (resized).PNG
TZ (resized).PNG

Doctor Who switch matrix
Capture (resized).PNG

#24 4 months ago

Awesome!! Well not "awesome"... there's a board issue, but Awesome that you have got a big step closer.

Well done!
faz

BTW... this level of electronics is beyond me. Looks like a standard Switch Matrix issue. Perhaps.... @zaza could chime in?

#25 4 months ago
Quoted from pinlink:

UPDATE!
First, thanks to everyone that has posted in this thread and provided help with this problem.
And a huge THANK YOU to Faz. Faz has gone above and beyond to help me with this problem, including talking to me on the phone and face timing with me to help resolve this issue. Faz, you are a great person and I hope to meet you face to face some day.
I believe we have isolated the problem. I think it is actually a CPU problem, not the Mini Playfield. Here is the timeline of events best I can recall:
-I bought this game and it had a row of switches out (row 7) and switch 75 was not working as well.
-Open up the game to see that there is battery damage on the CPU
-Replaced the CPU with a known working one from my TZ, and now row 7 switches work, but still switch 75 is out.
-Take out the Mini Playfield to find that the LED is broken off at Switch 75.
-Replaced the LED and turned the game on only to find that I had put the LED in backwards which caused errors.
-Replaced the LED and put it in correctly this time, and turned the game back on
-Now All optos and switches on the Mini Playfield do not work (Column 7).
-After going over everything with Faz, I was stumped and decided to put the CPU back into TZ to see if anything had changed. And it did.
-Now the CPU in TZ is throwing errors. And the switches that are not working on TZ are all optos! And it is the same Column of switches in the matrix that is
not working!
-This makes me think that when I replaced the LED incorrectly and turned the game on, something happened to the CPU...?? (is that possible?)
I am hoping that by replacing the CPU with a new one, it will fix the issues I am having with the Mini Playfield. Of course now I have two bad CPU's. I ordered a new rottendog CPU and plan to first put it in the TZ, and if it fixes the TZ errors, I will try it in the DW and pray that all of my problems go away.
Also, does anyone know what specifically would be wrong with the CPU to cause the same Column of switches to be out in both games?
My thought was that is was U19 causing ROW 7 to be out initially, because there was damage there. The working CPU from TZ fixed that row of switches.
Is it possible that now the problem is at U20 since it is now COLUMN 7 that is not working? Would installing a backwards LED cause issues with U20, which would effect Column 7?
Thanks again for everyone's help. I will keep you all posted once I receive the new CPU.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
Doctor Who switch matrix
[quoted image]

That is good news. I have the WPC shematics for Doctor Who and if you need assistance, let me know. Faz, you are awesome for helping. I am going to look at them when I return home and trace out your issue on the MPU.

Ken

#26 4 months ago

Thanks again!

Yes, it is now a switch matrix problem, but it exists on the board. I am sure someone here can point me to exactly which component is causing this. I am guessing U20?? I am just basing that on the switch matrix chart above that has U20 listed on Column 7. Assuming that installing a backwards opto LED could in fact cause U20 to go bad??

#27 4 months ago
Quoted from pinball_faz:

Looks like a standard Switch Matrix issue. Perhaps.... @zaza could chime in?

If all switches on column 7 are not responsive, (now on both cpu-boards) U20 is the main suspect.
An LED backwards won't blow this chip. Another power source against the column drive will ! Could be a lamp or coil.

To test the column drive directly on the board, have a look at this animation:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wpc-89-cpu-board-info#post-3872333

#28 4 months ago
Quoted from zaza:

If all switches on column 7 are not responsive, (now on both cpu-boards) U20 is the main suspect.
An LED backwards won't blow this chip. Another power source against the column drive will ! Could be a lamp or coil.
To test the column drive directly on the board, have a look at this animation:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wpc-89-cpu-board-info#post<rc-c2d-number data-rc-number="-3872333">-3872333</rc-c2d-number>

Wow! Thanks, I will try this test as soon as I get home. Should I leave all the wires at J212 J206 and J208 plugged in while running this test? I assume that if the DMD switch matrix shows anything other than your animation, I have an issue?

Thanks!

#29 4 months ago
Quoted from pinlink:

Should I leave all the wires at J212 J206 and J208 plugged in while running this test?

No, unplug J212, J206, J207, J208 and J209 for this test. Then with a single wire perform the test as in animation. Make notes if you see different response on the display and post here your test results.

#30 4 months ago

OK I just ran the test and everything works exactly like your animations, EXCEPT when touching J206 pin 7 from J208 pin 1. It does nothing at all.

Which I guess is expected since Column 7 is not working, correct?

#31 4 months ago

That confirms that Column 7 from U20 pin doesn't work anymore.
As this happend on 2 CPU boards, I would say that in both cases the chip needs to be replaced.
You could perform another test with a logic probe to be sure.

When boards are fixed and put into the machine again, be sure to find the cause of the chips to fail before powering the machine.
Follow the GRN-VIO wire and check for damaged/pinched wire or switch touching other stuff ....

#32 4 months ago

FIXED!! I can't believe it. Thanks again to everyone that helped me with this. This is what makes pinside great.

I replaced U20 and I am happy to report that everything is now working. No credit dot, and all switches are working!

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