Stern has not only secured there dominance by bringing back great designers they have also sucked up small run manufacturing building for others. If they have a slow seller ...its ok they have 700+mmr to build. Well then there is the wnbjm machine....no wait another run of mustang pro, st and metallica. Seems keeping busy isnt an issue for them.

You know it's an interesting correlation. I didn't realize how old technology even the newer gottliebs (system 3) were until I bought a couple. System 3 is still using the same crappy acorn wedge nuts, same ball trough with an arm to hold back multiballs, still using relays for lighting control, still using the same apron design from EM days.

While I'm for innovation, you also have to admire squeezing all you can from minimal technology. Throwing color LCD's at a platform isn't suddenly going to make it better, it simply has the room to do so. Creating good dots at limited resolution is tough, just look at how early 8-bit games manged with minimal dots and colors. I'm not saying this should excuse Stern (I would rather have the resolution and color pallette if I were an artist), just saying don't knock them for still creating good pinball from the same tools.

I'm not blaming the exchange rate specifically. Yes some of that as to be factored and is out of our control but to go and solely blame it on exchange rate is wrong. Other factors are at play here. If you don't factor in the exchange rate, the games when up by $1500+ in 4 years. Technical advancements like the spike system helped them remove a lot of wiring and a lot of boards. Replacing the lockdown mech with the latches, the service brackets for two pegs, replacing the metal apron for a plastic. I'm all for a cheaper BOM and quite honestly don't mind the changes apart from the services brackets change. Trying to keep the machine the same price while increasing your profits is good but to lower the BOM and increase the price.....ummmm....

I would really like to know how much of it is reusable. I'm thinking quite a lot. Like pop bumpers, slingshots, plunger, ball through, inlanes, outlane, orbit switches, ramp switches, target bank switches, flipper switches, end ball, end mutliball etc. The base foundation code for all these things are reused for sure and then some of them are tweaked on a game by game basis. I'm sure Stern can plug in a new whitewood with the base code and have 50% of it working from the get go. Then it's a matter of filling in the blanks. I'm not saying it's easy but at least they have a big head start.

That's another problem but I think moving to Spike might open up some possibilities

Still wondering how come RFID technology hasn't krept it's way into pinball machine. So many more things could be done. Each ball could be identified, each target could be identified on a per ball basis. (ie Score only if ball X hits only target X)

Nobody is saying art is all that matters. But only a fool would insist the quality of the art is irrelevant. It's inarguably relevant to most buyers and players.

Jarringly bad art plus a lackluster feature set combine for disappointment, and an opportunity for competitors. You can't just say the magic words "Steve Ritchie" as if that shields a game from any criticism.

Stern's glacial pace of innovation over the last 15 years or so may end up hurting them, but not until the competition proves capable of getting more than a trickle of games out the door.

as for the DMD, it's absurd that Stern is still using it. I guarantee a digital matrix display is a more expensive part than a small LCD screen, and more expensive and more difficult to program for.

I don't think anyone can argue that point. But I'm sure some people will. If they wanted to cut cost I really think that area would be it. Now licensing all the movie snippets and creating original content might end up being more expensive but not sure. I'm assuming if JJP can do it for the hobbit it must not be impossible and since he can do it on a smaller scale then I'm assuming (again assuming) that it is cheaper.

But don't you worry once Stern crosses that bridge they'll tack an extra $$$ on the price while still lower the BOM.

How do you suppose they would easily embed an RFID chip inside a steel ball and still have it reasonably balanced? Much less how is the RFID chip going to transmit inside a steel ball? Mayybe if you drilled a hole straight through, glued the chip in place in center, then filled the holes with glass it might work (then having to repolish to make sure the surface was flush).

That $1500 increase in 4 years. I would like to know the breakdown.

In Canada there is only 1 distributor and then resellers

I buy from a reseller here.
So that pin goes has touched 3 hands before it got to me

So 3 companies could jack up the end price to me for whatever reason

Say each adds $125 per year
That's like 3% each inflation per year per company. Does that seem that bad?

I don't think they are falling behind. The industry is really small, margins tight, and I think change is going to be slow. They've moved all their games to LED lighting over the years. They've just released SPIKE. My guess is we'll see a new display at some point in the near future. While I understand criticism on artwork over the years, their games have been quite fun from my standpoint.

Then again I don't think their actions are due to a greedy cash grab but rather due to what is needed to survive in this tiny industry. If it was as easy to innovate and add new features while still making money as people seem to think, someone else would be doing it.

The distributors or resellers are not the ones increasing the MSRP. Stern is.

There's no way it's more expensive to program a 128x38 mono-color display than it is to make something big, flashy, and full of animations like WoZ. Cheaper on the BOM sure, but not cheaper to develop for. There's a ton of additional design and art required to make something that looks impressive, it's not like it's just movie clips. Look at the P3 right now, one of the biggest things that sticks out about it is that the text-in-a-box style information on the LCD looks amateur and in-development because it doesn't have the expensive polish of a JJP game.

Once Stern goes LCD, they can't go back to DMD or their DMD games will all look a decade older than their LCD games. I'd much prefer games with LCDs, especially considering the prices of Sterns, but understand why they don't feel it's necessary until they're actually facing serious competition.

Since when have u paid msrp on a stern game?

That $5500 price I gave u for Star Trek pro in 2014 was a landed price to my door. Gst and shipping all in

If the pinball market is not growing at the same rate of production something will have to give. Space is the biggest issue then cost. Collectors will become more selective, thus build quality will be more of a focus, if you can only get a few pins. Agreed Stern can pump out games, which feel cheap compared to other manufactures pins. If i am the only one whose next three NIB's are not Stern then no issue. If there are other collectors like me, in time this will catch up to stern.....will they be producing the same amount of pins in two years?? Two years ago I would have only brought Stern.

My 2 cents

With todays deep rule sets to say pop bumper slingshots etc are half the game is ridiculous

The answer is "no". There is no Bally/Williams to take them down...and their staff is mostly B/W alums.

Why don't you understand it? Instead of 1 unit per title they can sell 3 to different market segments. It's called a business plan. It works. It makes them more money. It allows them to grow. Stop crying about it already, and if there's a title you like - buy the version you like and pretend the other 2 don't exist.

It's pinball. It's inherently outdated and retro. Comparing Gottlieb's failure during a period when arcades and pinball were relevant to the current market is apples to oranges.

"fall behind" ????????????????? who is there to fall behind? I really don't think anyone is close. I am not a stern nut - I like the music pins (so I have been recently very happy) but I think the next closest guy for them to fall behind is pretty far back there... we are talking bankruptcy to fall behind whoever is in 2nd.

So what you are saying is they don't have foundation code for left inner loop, right inner loop, target bank1, target bank 2, captive balls, no code for the light on the back panel, GI lighting, VUKs, magnet 1, magnet 2, stand up target 1, 2, 3, spinner 1, spinner 2... etc ....come on man.... once one thing is coded it's practical to keep it for the next job or else that is just poor planning.

I'm not talking about specific game rules, I'm talking about the foundation code before they apply the rules.

I disagree. I could download freeware off the internet and start developing for it right now. There are a plethora* of modern graphic and video design tools and millions of people trained in using them. for 128x38 red dots, you have to program each dot individually and fiddle with it all like crazy in order to make anything legible at such a ridiculous resolution. I'm sure Stern has some decent proprietary tools to make their custom little monochrome animations at this point but there's no way they are as developed or robust or widely supported or have as broad a user base (which helps in training, hiring, and support) as the standard toolsets on the market for the type of screen that is used by basically every modern electronic device in the world (except for Stern pinball machines).

* of piñatas

"Do you think Stern will start to fall behind like Gottlieb did"
I think I'd instead say "Do you think Stern will start to fall behind like Stern did"

Look back at the original Stern era (1977-1984). They took over Chicago Coin, and other than move from EM to SS, they really didn't do much else. Their first games are a lot like their last games.

Stern sold out to Data East. The first DE games looked a little like the old Sterns, but they developed and grew and by the time they sold to Sega they had advanced quite a lot. The first DE and the last DE look quite different. When Sega had it (1995-1999) they really didn't innovate too much before passing it over to the Stern that we know today. GoT has advanced from Harley Davidson, but by how much?

When you look at the history from 1977 to the present, the innovation mostly happened during the Data East era. So credit where credit is due.

In fairness, I am thankful that Stern has carried the torch. Sure they've had some dogs, but so has every pinball manufacturer (our memories get selective!).

These other companies are doing some exciting stuff, but until they start rolling out machines more quickly they aren't really pressuring Stern.

As for GoT, I'll reserve judgement until I play one. I like the cab art on the LE, but the playfield and translights initially look disappointing.

Just curious, what's your explanation that there's no LCD on GoT? If it's cheaper in every way, why wouldn't Stern have used it?

Regardless of whether it's cheaper or more expensive, there's a cost in switching over. They've got the process down for DMDs, they'll need a new process and hopefully new people to make an LCD work.

The worst thing they could do is take a talented DMD guy who turns out to be a mediocre LCD guy and just go with it because it's a similar job. That's what led to GOT's playfield.

This is basically my standpoint as well.

If the question is will Stern "fall behind?" - my question is fall behind who? The market itself may contract, but Stern is in little danger of taking home a silver medal right now

JJP and Heighway, and to a lesser extent (right now) Spooky and DP are the only competitors and they cannot replace Stern in the current market. AT BEST they can currently claim to have converted one Stern sale for themselves (debatable), but the reality is there is room to build and sell MINIMUM ~3 new titles a year ranging in price from ~$5000 to ~$9000, plus re-runs, plus renting out pinball manufacturing space.... and exactly one single company can even come close: Stern.

There is just no one to fall behind of; there is simply no other manufacturer to run to unless you want to buy one game every 2-4 years and one of the other companies happens to make a theme you like. This could change on a larger scale with Heighway coming online, and/or JJP receiving a cash infusion but I would bet my money on the pinball 'fad' ending and the overall pin market contracting before either one supplants or even challenges Stern as the dominant force of the industry. Anything is naturally possible but for the foreseeable future these guys have a few years to go before they can spit out 3 games a year let alone compete with Stern for sales.

Well, when Hobbit, Alien and Big Lebowski are all out there with color lcd's etc, at same price point as Stern then comparing the product, Stern is behind.

But, Stern knock em out quick and make 3 games a year so they can get by without major innovation.

Their latest games don't really offer the player anything more than we got in 2003 with LOTR. Ok, a few colored lights but not a lot else.

right, I think that's the answer. it's laziness, not cost. the current guys they have there are talented at dots, and probably really lousy at video graphics. they are holding on to a greatly inferior, long obsolete and likely more expensive tech rather than incur the up front cost of changing over. believe me, I am very familiar with this kind of situation -- I'm a government contractor.

3 new machines from 3 different companies after years and years of waiting will not topple Stern, nor will those individual companies survive long term on 1 title every ~3 years (that my opinion at least - the market won't boom forever). Also you are counting on those (and subsequent) machines to be awesome and sell as well or better than a competing Stern machine. If TH, Aliens, or TBL turn out to be overhyped 'meh' (I truly hope this isn't the case) it could be devastating to the parent company. Stern can release a miss or two and survive on a hit like ACDC or Metallica for years.

No. Fall behind who, a bunch of boutique manufacturers who make a game every 3-5 years?

Ha! Laughable man!

I didn't use to care about Gottlieb's demise, but I have grown to love their 50s, 60s and (to some extent) 70s pins, and it makes me sad that they took a dive. They were such a great company for that stretch of decades. It's a shame they lost their way. I don't think it was just a matter of their lack of technological innovation, however. Their pins just weren't as good as they had been. They seem to have lost their creative edge at the same time that Bally was truly beginning to shine.

Hey now, towards the end they were the Premier pinball manufacturer. Isn't Barb Wire collectible?

If your comparing TH to GOT I would rather GOT upper playfield over TH troll rehash.As for LCD good on stop and go games but lame with fast playing games.

Even a Stern miss sells more game then a boutique hit

I wouldn't conclude that it's laziness, but rather risk awareness. Can't imagine Stern is just leaning back and doesn't care.
They will probably already be testing and playing around with LCD options, but maybe not successful or economical enough (yet).
It's a new tech for Stern, they need to build competence and confidence before implementing it.

Regarding the government - that's 100% laziness...

I agree. Stern really doesn't have much of any competition at the moment. JJP has been struggling for almost 5 years trying to produce 2 titles. Once they learn how to crank out games...... Real competition!
Heighway Pinball to me is going to be Stern's biggest competitor in the near future. Full Throttle is getting great reviews, & Alien has a chance to be a "must have" pin. The modular design for the playfields is very clever.

And Dutch Pinball, TBL is a great looking pin! Problem is they are also learning how to manufacture pinball machines & are going through the growing pains.

So, Stern has very little competition Today, but in the not so distant future they are going to have some Real Tuff Competition. I've owned many Stern pins, they're fun! But the last year of dog titles(Mustang, WWE, & the GOT debacle)hasn't made me open up my wallet once. Stern is going to want to step their game up once the other pinball manufacturer's are producing 3 titles a year each.

I got the feeling after playing several new Stern games that although very good - especially AC/DC and Star Trek, these games could have been released in 1992. The LCD if done correctly is a great leap forward. I'm sure Stern will get on board but I don't blame them for doing what they know for a while longer. It's not just adding a LCD but how's it's integrated into the game where we're likely to see the greatest advances. While WOZ is a very nice game I think in a few years the integration will look somewhat dated - from what I see Hobbit already looks much improved by adding information the player needs as well as something nice to look at for those waiting to play. This should only improve with time. While JJP has raised the bar Stern will certainly meet the challenge. Regardless the pinball buying public will come out ahead.

It doesn't matter. Stern raises MSRP, distributor raises price to make up for the difference.

I think u just answered the question on who is raising the prices to u

If u are so much at odds with sterns prices and sterns business practices. Simply don't buy their games and buy the competitions games to help them grow.

I should have asked earlier. Please show me a nice white water for $1800 where it's remotely close to me (edmonton Alberta) Because if it's far. I have to add shipping which will drive the price up.

The LE model isn't broken until Stern can't sell them (consistently). Occasionally, games won't sell well due to the game. Other companies are not yet mass producing games for profit. Stern is the industry standard.

On another note, I do feel that the level of $7500 + games is outgrowing the gameroom space and available collector dollars. I don't think we are crashing, but we certainly are not at the top of the market now. Good shopping from Sept to March (Expo to Texas).

Not sure what stern hasn't been innovating. Aside from the OMG LCD SCREEN IS SO MUCH NEW TECH what does any pinball maker have that stern hasn't done before? You don't play the screen and it's expensive to animate so why not stick with the current tech? It's not like lcd is some brand new amazing thing that only pinball machines could ever use and if JJP was able to share the costs for the animation work i'm guessing we'd all be in for a bit of a shock. I'd personally rather see the game actually make it to market and be fun

From the top side, stern's got all the same basic mechs anyone has. Now, hit the electronics side of things where new innovations are truly enabled and you see where Stern's done something. It's not flashy, but they are set for the future with spike. They can do anything anyone can do now with all the same underpinnings, and they did it with a board half the size of the old driver board vs 50 pounds of stuff in the bottom of the cab. If you compare stern's base to anyone else, they have easily innovated vs slapping PC stuff in there. Ben Heck's pin system is pretty good stuff too.

Obviously, a lot of people care. Look at the sale of color DMDs at $400 a pop.

I wouldn't say Stern are falling behind, more like setting themselves up for one spectacular crash. Releasing games faster than they can code them is NOT a sustainable practice, and will inevitably end in disaster.

So your saying JJP had TH half done two years ago I don't think so

Actually, when the games were released and sold to operators, the Rockwell Microelectronics system was by far the most reliable for the the first 4-6 years of life for the first generation of Gottlieb's Solid State machines. Much more reliable than Williams, Bally or Stern pins. I worked as a route technician from 1979-85 and can tell you from my experience that the Gottlieb electronics were the most reliable for the route operating life of the machines. Star Series 80; not so much.

Coincidentally, I ended up working for Rockwell at their Semiconductor Products Business facilities (formerly known as Rockwell Microelectronics Division) just after the Gottlieb board production ceased. Mainly on Butterfield Trail in El Paso but sometimes enjoyed the good life on Jamboree Road in Newport Beach. Dinner on Balboa Island was pretty cool.

Don't bring up manufactures of games till they ship games DP as for your wallet you bought a Stern THD it has not beed closed long

You can't compare Stern that has 40+ games under it's belt versus new comer JJP that has 1.5. However, I won't debate the time lapse. Stern as had time to perfect the way they code games. If you think that coders start from scratch on every game you are misinformed. I could probably list over 100 things that they use that is precoded as an empty vessel only to be filled by game specific code.

Score multiplier functions
End of ball bonus calculator
End of ball score calculator
Ball # identifier
etc....

You would be surprised at the amount of code that it already done. If that wasn't the case they wouldn't even come close to release a game every 3 months. I'm not saying the other half is easy, coding all the conditions and special events that stack and intertwine over each other must be mind boggling but at least they have a solid foundation to start the code on.

JJP on the other hand is only on round two and they are perfecting the first iteration of code from WOZ. I'm sure alot of stuff was scrapped and restarted this time around. Same thing applies to Stern most likely but on a smaller scale.

They're not making smartphones, they're making pinball machines - an item that doesn't even register a blip on the average consumer's radar. It's a niche retro product. They don't need to be innovative, only "cool" and "fun".

You clearly don't understand business. This works for them. You're saying they should ditch the Pro & price the Premium as a Pro.

NEVER.
GOING.
TO.
HAPPEN.

All 3 models sell. No reason to remove one and make less money on the other.

? I don't have my decoder ring on!

Yup, I must care, since 4 of my 5 DMD games have ColorDMDs, and as soon as Tron is released it will get one too.

Cool story bro - you clearly know better than Stern. Start a pinball company. Looking forward to your fully featured machines for $5k!

I've been thinking about the topic of pinball innovation as well. I love the modern Stern games as much as anyone else, but the technology hasn't really progressed much. Still the usual bumpers, ramps, bash toys, two flippers at the bottom, maybe one strategically placed elsewhere. Otherwise it's basically the same features on each playing field scrambled to create different shots. I'm oversimplifying--and I love pinball despite this regularity.

Still, where is the integration of modern gaming technologies such as motion sensing (like Xbox Kinect), video game elements such as animation (on the field or backglass), touchpad technology or even advertising options to encourage more pins on location again? There was that huge thread awhile back about creating a simpler pin to attract a bigger audience. Maybe it's between that and integrating new technology into the game.

Then again, the US pinball market is, what, 50% HUO? So maybe they're targeting the older buyers who regularly have the $5000+ in their pockets to buy Kiss and GoT when they're released.

Do arcade operators even matter in the equation anymore?