Do you ground your ungrounded EMs? (poll)

(Topic ID: 207228)

Do you ground your ungrounded EMs? (poll)


By spinal

9 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 95 posts
  • 17 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 months ago by cottonm4
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Do you ground your ungrounded EMs?”

  • No, if it's a 2-prong cord it stays a 2-prong cord 27 votes
    41%
  • Yes, I replace my 2-prong cords with 3-prong but only attach the ground to the transformer base 28 votes
    42%
  • Yes, I replace my 2-prong cords with 3-prong and also attach ground wires to all external metal parts (legs, lockdown bar, coin door, rails, shooter rod etc.) 11 votes
    17%

(66 votes)

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There are 95 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 9 months ago

My 1974 Gottlieb Sky Jump (SJ) has a factory 2-prong plug (ungrounded) and my 1977 Gottlieb Centigrade 37 (C37) has a factory 3-prong plug (grounded) so somewhere along the line, either because of regulation or other reasons, someone somewhere thought it a good idea to utilize grounding for safety reasons.

Now when a machine utilizes the ground, it can do so by:

A. attaching the ground only to the transformer and nowhere else <or>

B. in addition to attaching to the ground to the transformer, running wires from the transformer to all external metal parts of the machine.
(legs, lockdown bar, rails, coin door, shooter rod etc.).

My 1975 Gottlieb Abra Ca Dabra (ACD) is wired as A above and my C37 is wired as B above yet so it seems to me, and I'm speculating on this, that there was a progression of grounding happening at Gottlieb somewhere between 1974 to 1977. (BTW, if anyone has more detailed knowledge of which machines were grounded which way, would love to hear about it).

---

So my thinking is that if grounding makes machines safer in some way then shouldn't we be properly grounding all our EMs (B above)?

More specifically, should I ground my SJ and ACD just like Gottlieb did to my C37 in 1977?

#2 9 months ago

My 1974 Sky Jump has no ground

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#3 9 months ago

My 1975 Abra Ca Dabra has ground coming into cabinet but only attached to transformer base (green wire). Note no wires going to back legs.

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#4 9 months ago

Don’t be shocked to find some don’t ha ha

#5 9 months ago

My 1977 C37 has the full factory grounding treatment (export to Canada), ground coming into cabinet and attached to all external metal parts

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#6 9 months ago

This has been covered a number of times already.
The second option in the poll is pointless unless all the other external metal parts are also grounded to the transformer base.

#7 9 months ago

If the old cord still works, I just leave it alone.

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#8 9 months ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

This has been covered a number of times already.

Yes (thanks), it's been covered but no consensus and no poll so as a newcomer to this topic still very confusing. There are many long time experts who adamantly express the extreme opposite opinion on this topic.

#9 9 months ago

Here are some links for those who are interested:

xtheblackknightx gave this basic intro link in another thread: https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/question110.htm

Clay states: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#shock
" Installing a New Power Cord.
I always replace the power cord on any EM game I fix up. The originals are usually worn, or the insulation is cracking. You can replace the original two prong cord with another two prong power cord - just go to the local Dollar store and buy a 15 foot two prong extension cord for $2. Cut off the recepticle end of the cord, and you have a new power cord for a nice low price. Note the new power cord should have one line with "ribs" in the rubber insulator. This is the white or "neutral" line. The "hot" (black) wire is the new power cord's "smooth" line (which connects to the narrow power prong.) The hot line should connect to the game's power switch (if the game has one) and fuse.

For better safety, it's not a bad idea to replace the game's original two prong power cord with a grounded three prong cord. Again, the same technique can be used - buy an inexpensive three prong 15 foot extension cord at the Dollar store and cut off the recepticle end. Also again the new power cord should have a "ribbed" insulator wire which connects to the larger of the two power prongs. This is the "neutral" (white) wire. The "hot" (black or smooth wire or narrow prong) should connect to the line going to the power switch. The green ground wire should connect to the transformer's metal frame bolt. Optionally, additional grounds can then be run from the transformer's metal frame to other metal objects (like the lockdown bar and metal side rails and metal leg plates).

Flipper Button Shocks.
Just like the coin door button, flipper buttons can often give a nice shock too. This usually happens if touching both flipper buttons. Gottlieb used metal flipper buttons from 1960 (wedgehead cabinets) all the way into the 1970s, so this problem is fairly common. Again just like the coin door replay button, there is fish paper which insulates the the metal activator from the flipper switches (which are 30 volts). If the fish paper wears or breaks, the player can get a shock from the flipper buttons. Replace the fish paper (or use electrical tape) and the problem should go away.

Grounding the Game.
Another good idea is to ground your game. Installing a NEW three prong power cord and plug is a good idea. The original power cord is probably 25+ years old. Remember the black power cord line is "hot", and should run to the game's power switch. On the old power cord often there is a "rib" on the wire which denotes the black (hot) power line. Run the power cord's ground wire to the metal frame of the power transformer. Then run a wire from the transformer's frame to the back end of the metal side rails. Run another wire from the front end of the side rail to the coin door and lock down bar. Lastly, run a wire from the coin door to the other side rail. While you're at it, it may not be a bad idea to add a power switch to your game too (as discussed previously in the Typically What's Wrong section)."

Yet, in another part of his site, Clay says he just replaces 2-prong with 2-prong. "At this point I'm usually replacing the power cord too, using a dollar store 15 foot two prong extension cord" (http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#powersw).

--

Some other links (if you're interested in this topic):

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/grounding-an-older-em

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-grounding

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/what-are-the-side-effects-of-cutting-off-the-ground-prong

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/replacing-line-cords-plugs-wall-sockets-vids-guide

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair#Safety

#10 9 months ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

This has been covered a number of times already.
The second option in the poll is pointless unless all the other external metal parts are also grounded to the transformer base.

I'm glad you brought this up as I was wondering about this as well. I agree that it's perhaps pointless for shock safety but not perhaps for some other reason (I don't know).

In my initial post I mention that my ACD was wired this way from the factory (ground only to transformer) so then the question becomes why would Gottlieb make a change like this if it was pointless? Perhaps just to satisfy regulations or perhaps another reason? Anyone?

Is wiring ground to transformer only, pointless? (hah should start a new poll )

The only thing I can think of is that wiring ground to base of transformer at least provides some shock safety around the transformer (if hot happened to be touching transformer base while you were) but I agree, this doesn't seem worth it since there are hot wires throughout. Anyone?

#11 9 months ago
Quoted from spinal:

If the fish paper wears or breaks, the player can get a shock from the flipper buttons. Replace the fish paper (or use electrical tape)

Additionally, you can slip a small piece of shrink tubing on the leg of the flipper activation link (older games only) where it comes in contact with the switch blades to further insulate the flipper buttons.

#12 9 months ago
Quoted from spinal:

My 1977 C37 has the full factory grounding treatment, ground coming into cabinet and attached to all external metal parts

Doesn't look very factory original..

#13 9 months ago
Quoted from Briehl:

Doesn't look very factory original..

Elaborate please as I'm trying to learn all I can. What parts are you referring to?

(This C37 is a Canadian machine (Manitoba) so it's possible that it was modified for Canada either from the factory or afterwards). Anyone have pics of ground wires in their C37?

#14 9 months ago

OK learned something already! Here is a pic of a C37 without ground wires to external parts of cab:

So it could be that for Manitoba, Canada at least, that external grounding was necessary.

Does anyone else know if Canadian machines required stricter standards regarding electrical grounding than did US games?

Does anyone else have a Canadian C37 they could post pics of?

It's still possible that this grounding was added at factory before export to Canada. I can probably find out by inspecting wire harness.

#15 9 months ago

Canada had special requirements. Don't know if they're local or national. So the added wiring to your C37 over what SJ has is probably Canada local/national requirement.

I had a Canadian Gottlieb 300 that had a cage around the transformer and a kill switch at the coin door. Don't recall if it had anything more than that. I won't ever forget it due to the hour's worth of troubleshooting I did one day trying to figure out why my running game had no power whatsoever until I found that f'ing kill switch.

#16 9 months ago
Quoted from MikeO:

Canada had special requirements. Don't know if they're local or national. So the added wiring to your C37 over what SJ has is probably Canada local/national requirement.
I had a Canadian Gottlieb 300 that had a cage around the transformer and a kill switch at the coin door. Don't recall if it had anything more than that. I won't ever forget it due to the hour's worth of troubleshooting I did one day trying to figure out why my running game had no power whatsoever until I found that f'ing kill switch.

Very helpful thanks.

#17 9 months ago
Quoted from spinal:

(This C37 is a Canadian machine (Manitoba) so it's possible that it was modified for Canada either from the factory or afterwards). Anyone have pics of ground wires in their C37?

My Abra Ca Dabra, has the exact green wire grounding as your C37. Those blue crimp connectors are from the 1970's, and are not a standard that Gottlieb used.

Your power cord is missing the cover in that area where the prongs are. For your own peace of mind replace the cord, attaching the ground wire, to the base of the transformer.

#18 9 months ago
Quoted from Darcy:

My Abra Ca Dabra, has the exact green wire grounding as your C37. Those blue crimp connectors are from the 1970's, and are not a standard that Gottlieb used.
Your power cord is missing the cover in that area where the prongs are. For your own peace of mind replace the cord, attaching the ground wire, to the base of the transformer.

Thanks Darcy - I agree, replacing cords on my SJ (missing plug cover), ACD (someone put a 2-prong plug on 3-wire cord) and my C37 has the ground prong removed from the plug.

That's why I started this thread as I'm interested in the details of how others in our community approach this topic. Cheers.

So your ACD is a Canadian version then right?

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#19 9 months ago
Quoted from spinal:

So your ACD is a Canadian version then right?

Yes it was built for Canada. It doesn't have the cage or door lock out. Only 1 of my EMs has the transformer cage and door lock out switch, and that even was installed at Gottlieb, as all of the wiring is buried in the wire harness and not just laid on top of the harness.

#20 9 months ago

Cool, can you post pics of your grounding wires? You have same blue connectors right?

#21 9 months ago

Can post pictures tomorrow afternoon. Or possibly this afternoon. Gottlieb pins that were exported and made to go to Canada have a stamp on the motor board, by the game counter.

#22 9 months ago

Vid on grounding:

Quoted from vid1900:

EMs should be updated with modern safety 3 prong.
Green wire attached to the frame of the transformer.

Quoted from vid1900:

NEW POWER CORD FOR EM TYPE MACHINES
===================================
Until the 1960's, most electrical outlets were the 2 prong type; so as you have probably noticed, many older EM pinball machines have 2 prong cords.
Even though 2 prong is "factory", you should still update your games to 3 prong grounded cords for safety. Your 40-60 year old cord is probably due for replacement anyway.
Inside the cab, you see the old power cord is bundled up with all the other wires with little sections of string. Don't try to cut all those strings out, you will make a mess. Just cut the old power cord off at each end of the bundle, and zip tie the new power cord along the outside of the bundle.
The Black/Hot wire from the new cord goes to the fuse and switch (assuming there is a switch).
The White/Neutral wire from the new cord goes to whatever spot the old, ribbed wire went to.
The Green/Ground wire from the new cord gets a Ring Terminal installed on the end of it, and is attached to the transformer case.

The transformer case and brackets are often dipped in lacquer, so you should sand the attachment point down to bare metal.

Finally, run a Ground Braid to the metal Legs, Coin Door, Lock Down Bar and Rails of the machine. This will protect the user by making those parts a better path to ground than the player himself is.

#23 9 months ago
Quoted from spinal:

Elaborate please as I'm trying to learn all I can. What parts are you referring to?
(This C37 is a Canadian machine (Manitoba) so it's possible that it was modified for Canada either from the factory or afterwards). Anyone have pics of ground wires in their C37?

I'm about 99.9% positive that those blue crimp on connectors are not factory. The wire may possibly be factory installed but it's been modified for sure.

#24 9 months ago
Quoted from Darcy:

Can post pictures tomorrow afternoon. Or possibly this afternoon. Gottlieb pins that were exported and made to go to Canada have a stamp on the motor board, by the game counter.

We've seen the occasional shielded cage over the transformer too, those crazy Canadians...

#25 9 months ago
Quoted from pinhead52:

We've seen the occasional shielded cage over the transformer too, those crazy Canadians...

Didn't Canada require a 120V to 120V isolation transformer as well in their games?

#26 9 months ago
Quoted from pinhead52:

We've seen the occasional shielded cage over the transformer too, those crazy Canadians...

It is a safety thing. We do not want people reaching into a live machine and touching a transformer with sweaty fingers.

Those transformer cages can also be found in 70's juke boxes, cigarette machines, and vending machines.

#27 9 months ago
Quoted from schudel5:

Didn't Canada require a 120V to 120V isolation transformer as well in their games?

Think that is a Province of Ontario only requirement.

#28 9 months ago
Quoted from Darcy:

Think that is a Province of Ontario only requirement.

Ah yes I remember now. Something with the Niagara Power requirements.

#29 9 months ago
Quoted from schudel5:

Didn't Canada require a 120V to 120V isolation transformer as well in their games?

I've seen isolation transformers inside of some woodrails. They were likely from Canada, eh?

#30 9 months ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

This has been covered a number of times already.
The second option in the poll is pointless unless all the other external metal parts are also grounded to the transformer base.

Lots of things have been covered before. And new people keep coming in. So items will get talked about again. And then again. I mean, can you really ask someone to go search 100s of pages and thousands of posts?

If you know a link that sheds light, do not berate someone for asking the same old question that has been asked before. Say, "Here you are" and provide a link.

#31 9 months ago

My pins are grounded but my house is not.

My house was built in 1957 and two-wire romex is all that is in my walls. I used to have a drawer full of those little gray adapters that that let you plug a 3-prong tool to a 2-prong outlet. That got tiresome, so one day I replaced all of my 2-prong outlets with 3-prong outlets.

Rewiring the house with grounded Romex costs too much but I'll probably have to reinstall the 2-prong outlets when I go to sell.

#32 9 months ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

My pins are grounded but my house is not.
My house was built in 1957 and two-wire romex is all that is in my walls. I used to have a drawer full of those little gray adapters that that let you plug a 3-prong tool to a 2-prong outlet. That got tiresome, so one day I replaced all of my 2-prong outlets with 3-prong outlets.
Rewiring the house with grounded Romex costs too much but I'll probably have to reinstall the 2-prong outlets when I go to sell.

If your house wiring isn't grounded your pins can't be grounded either (unless they're not in your house).

#33 9 months ago
Quoted from spinal:

Cool, can you post pics of your grounding wires? You have same blue connectors right?

Here are the pics. Showing metal crimp connectors and what appears to be welded studs on the braces for the legs.

Right side rail, right front leg and lock down bar receiver.
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Left side rail, they replaced a nail, with a long bolt through the side of the cabinet
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Rear legs.
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Some one took some time to do this, or had done it many times before.

#34 9 months ago

Thanks for the pics Darcy. Bolts through the side are the same and there are other similarities but mine are just screwed into leg brackets and not welded on like yours. A couple years separate ACD and C37 so this could have changed.

In any case, at some point these mods were made to conform to Canadian code either at the factory or after I'm not sure. Anyone else have Canadian wedgeheads with grounding done?

#35 9 months ago
Quoted from spinal:

Thanks for the pics Darcy. Bolts through the side are the same and there are other similarities but mine are just screwed into leg brackets and not welded on like yours. A couple years separate ACD and C37 so this could have changed.
In any case, at some point these mods were made to conform to Canadian code either at the factory or after I'm not sure. Anyone else have Canadian wedgeheads with grounding done?

I have my doubts that this grounding wire set up is a factory option. From the ones I have seen all the wiring looks to be added.

#36 9 months ago

Yes but could have been added at the factory before export as an afterthought for only the few machines headed for Canada. Other option is that games were imported without ground mods and then owner would have to do before putting out but in that case who would enforce it?

I don't know either way until we see pics from others that own these same Canadian machines. Anyway, I'm learning a lot so thanks for the pics and for all the comments everyone!

#37 9 months ago

From what I've read, those who say grounding is unimportant because machines work without it are missing the main point. The main point is that IF a hot wire were to come loose and touch a piece of exposed metal then an owner/player could receive a (potentially dangerous) shock.

Looking at my C37 tonight shows a good example of this. Looks like power switch has a green ground wire running to it but look closer at the black wire. It is hanging on by a single thread of wire so here is an example of how wires can come loose over the years and cause hazards.

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#38 9 months ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

That got tiresome, so one day I replaced all of my 2-prong outlets with 3-prong outlets.

That is dangerous.

Replace your 2 prong outlets with 3 prong GFCI outlets.

You won't get true grounding, but you will instantly trip on a ground fault (and thus save your life).

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/replacing-line-cords-plugs-wall-sockets-vids-guide#post-1945127

NO GROUND WIRE AVAILABLE IN DUPLEX BOX

=================================

If your house is old, it may not have a Ground wire available at all inside the electrical wall box.

The best thing to do would be to run a new line of "Romex" back to the Breaker Panel and have a properly grounded outlet.

But if your house is a rental, or there is just no realistic way to run a new line, you can actually install an "ungrounded" GFCI and it will still trip on a Ground Fault.

As a bonus, the GFCI will protect all the other outlets that are connected 'downstream' from it; so try to make it the first outlet in the line to the Breaker Panel.

The GFCI will come with a bunch of decals that need to be applied to itself and the other downstream outlets notifying users that they are protected, but no actual equipment ground is available.

4f8487d744b4ee3606a196f51ad3771a4de9bbcf (resized).jpg

#39 9 months ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

If your house wiring isn't grounded your pins can't be grounded either (unless they're not in your house).

Yes, you are correct. It was a play on words. All of my pins are ground ready, or would be properly grounded if the outlet was grounded.

#40 9 months ago
Quoted from spinal:

Other option is that games were imported without ground mods and then owner would have to do before putting out but in that case who would enforce it?

The scenario would be a company importing new machines for re-sale in Ontario. The Provincial gov't would only allow commercial electric equipment in to Ontario unless it could pass a CSA test. There are no UL or CSA labels on 1970's Gottliebs.

On a smaller scale, what if the City of Toronto tried to control the amount of pins were in the city by making the operators jump hoops to licence the games. With that the games had to pass any testing by the CSA? With various grounding and that isolation transformer modifications? (Just a wild guess).

#41 9 months ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

Lots of things have been covered before. And new people keep coming in. So items will get talked about again. And then again. I mean, can you really ask someone to go search 100s of pages and thousands of posts?
If you know a link that sheds light, do not berate someone for asking the same old question that has been asked before. Say, "Here you are" and provide a link.

There is a reason this website has a search button. If people used it we wouldn't have to search through countless threads asking the exact same thing.

#42 9 months ago

Even longtime experts and the community in general are totally split on this topic so not sure how the topic is resolved and not fit for discussion but thanks for your input.

#43 9 months ago
Quoted from spinal:

Even longtime experts and the community in general are totally split on this topic so not sure how the topic is resolved and not fit for discussion but thanks for your input.

After reading all this I have decided to add a three prong cord to my toaster and all the other things around the house that only have a two prong.

#44 9 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

After reading all this I have decided to add a three prong cord to my toaster and all the other things around the house that only have a two prong.

Some things can be designed with 2 prong safely, like a modern toaster (double insulated), or a "wall wart" charger(step down transformer).

But if I had a vintage 1950s toaster, I'd certainly rewire the cord to 3 prong so I don't kill my kids.

#45 9 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

But if I had a vintage 1950s toaster, I'd certainly rewire the cord to 3 prong so I don't kill my kids.

The darn thing gave out on me about a month ago. Fortunately my old man had kept several parts toasters on hand.

#46 9 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

That is dangerous.
Replace your 2 prong outlets with 3 prong GFCI outlets.
You won't get true grounding, but you will instantly trip on a ground fault (and thus save your life).
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/replacing-line-cords-plugs-wall-sockets-vids-guide#post-1945127
NO GROUND WIRE AVAILABLE IN DUPLEX BOX
=================================
If your house is old, it may not have a Ground wire available at all inside the electrical wall box.
The best thing to do would be to run a new line of "Romex" back to the Breaker Panel and have a properly grounded outlet.
But if your house is a rental, or there is just no realistic way to run a new line, you can actually install an "ungrounded" GFCI and it will still trip on a Ground Fault.
As a bonus, the GFCI will protect all the other outlets that are connected 'downstream' from it; so try to make it the first outlet in the line to the Breaker Panel.
The GFCI will come with a bunch of decals that need to be applied to itself and the other downstream outlets notifying users that they are protected, but no actual equipment ground is available.

Thanks Vid. It is an old house. The prices I got several years ago to do complete rewire were cost prohibitive. I was not aware that GFCI outlets would have any effect in a house with a 2-wire system. With this knowledge, I am going to install the GFCIs. Thanks again.

#47 9 months ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

I was not aware that GFCI outlets would have any effect in a house with a 2-wire system.

Sure, think outside the box for a second......

Code requires a GFCI in the bathroom, yet you probably never use any 3 prong cord appliances in that room.

But if you drop the hair dryer into the tub, or touch the electric razor while standing on the wet floor - the GFCI trips rather than you dying....and both of those items are 2 prong appliances.

#48 9 months ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

It is an old house. The prices I got several years ago to do complete rewire were cost prohibitive.

You might not even rewire the entire house.

You might think of doing the basement, home theater and garage - places where proper grounding can be important.

#49 9 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Some things can be designed with 2 prong safely, like a modern toaster (double insulated)

So I should question my self when I want to use this 1915 Universal Toaster, with a 2 prong cloth cord?

20180114_153825 (resized).jpg

#50 9 months ago
Quoted from Darcy:

a 2 prong cloth cord?

We call that "a fuse".

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