I suppose that my approach is a sort of defense mechanism to ward off the Dunning-Kruger effect.

I have a similar outlook.

A guy I went to school with who was very smart suggested we take my car out on the local golf course late at night and do donuts around the greens. It sounded like fun so I went along with it. Little did I know we would get arrested and spend the night in jail. I guess if I was smarter, I would have not thought that was such a great idea in the first place.

You make this site worth coming to. We would definitely get in trouble if we got together.

It’s a smart way to approach it.

Unfortunately these days everyone not only gets trophies but they also are scientists and doctors.

Smh

I certainly don't mean to denigrate advice from parents. But, indulge me for a moment. Whenever I select juries, I ask potential jurors (through the judge's voir dire) whom the juror most admires. About 99% of them identify a parent or grandparent. On rare occasion, a prospective juror identifies a historical figure who is universally recognized as having contributed to humankind, like Abraham Lincoln or Jonas Salk. I think that we tend to magnify the actual "wisdom quotient" of those who raised us because contextually there is no competition, no reference point.

Western civilization populations, especially Americans, tend to be egocentric by nature. It can take considerable effort to defer to others (outside of one's immediate social sphere) for guidance in important family decision-making. Thus, if my mother or late father (both of whom I immensely admire for their respective intellects and life experiences) gave me advice, as an adult, about the propriety of the flu shot, that advice would nevertheless yield to the smartest guy in the room on the topic, Marty Cetron, MD, my childhood friend, whose credentials (below) speak for themselves.

************************************************************

Director, Division of Global Migration and Quarantine

Martin Cetron, MD, is the Director for the Division of Global Migration and Quarantine (DGMQ) at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Dr. Cetron holds faculty appointments in the Division of Infectious Disease at the Emory University School of Medicine and the Department of Epidemiology at Rollins School of Public Health. He received his B.A. from Dartmouth College in 1981 and his M.D. from Tufts University in 1985. He trained in Internal Medicine at the University of Virginia and Infectious Diseases at the University of Washington before joining the CDC’s Epidemic Intelligence Service and becoming a Commissioned Officer in the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) in 1992. His primary research interests are global health and migration with a focus on emerging infections, tropical diseases, and vaccine-preventable diseases in mobile populations. Dr. Cetron has co-authored more than 100 publications. Dr. Cetron has also been a leader in public health emergency preparedness and response activities at CDC and is a graduate of the Harvard School of Public Health & Kennedy School of Government’s National Preparedness Leadership Institute. For over 20 years, he has conducted epidemiologic research globally, developed global health policy and led domestic and international outbreak investigations including high profile international emergency responses to emerging infectious disease outbreaks [Anthrax bioterrorism 2001, SARS epidemic 2003, U.S. Monkeypox 2003, Hurricane Katrina/ Rita 2005, H1N1 influenza pandemic 2009, Haiti Earthquake / Cholera Responses 2010-11, Japan Tsunami-Radiation 2011, H7N9 2013, and MERS CoV 2012-3, Coronavirus Response (2013), Unaccompanied Children Central America (2014), Ebola Response (2014) & Zika Virus (2015)].
Dr. Cetron has been a consultant to several WHO Expert Committees: the US delegation intergovernmental negotiations of IHR 2005, the Pandemic Influenza and IHR Review Panel 2010, and the IHR emergency committee roster of independent experts. He also was elected in 2016 for a fellowship with IDSA (Infectious Diseases Society of America) & ASTMH (American Society of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene).

You should. A parent can be a low IQ mental patient, a doctor or a crazy uncle.

Only one of those qualities/professions/afflictions qualifies them as having useful advice when it comes to complex medical situations.

Thanks!

In the end my buddy ended up looking like a sheer genius and one night in jail was nothing compared to the well educated practicing quackaroos and the try it now, worry about the consequences later bozos at the FDA that determined it was OK to give young children like myself Tetracycline that would leave us for the rest of our lives with yellow, dead looking permanent teeth.

Or the other super well educated alcoholic oral surgeon that some how convinced at least one of my parents if he didn't remove 12 of my teeth including 4 permanents that hadn't even come in yet, it would cause me trouble later on which is exactly what ended up happening because of the procedure, that helped pay for his big house up on the hill and his daily bottle of schnapps that would help him get ready to operate.

Yes, I have total faith in those smarter and more educated than myself to make decisions for me, because I am too stupid to think for myself.

How did I know about his alcohol situation? Before the full affects of the first procedure became apparent, he took a second stab at me removing my wisdom teeth. Which dislocated the jaw disk and left my jaw locked and with a throat infection so bad, I couldn't even swallow. When mom took me back to him I could smell it on him and he said come back if it gets any worse, then she immediately rushed me to the hospital not a moment too soon.

Shortly after I took a job at a liquor store where he would come in almost every day, sometimes before noon, and pick up his bottle of schnapps. By the time I was older and had serious issues because of his hackery, he was already dead so there was no going after him. The thought hadn't really crossed my mind anyway, I just paid the new surgeon out of pocket to try to fix me up as best he could. Three times.

No, no flu shot for me! Its worked well for me the past several years and I don't plan on changing anything now... the flu shot is overrated!

CDC > one alcoholic dentist in the 70’s

What I learned then made me a better parent I believe.

When I was a child I was led to believe doctors could fix anything and anything they recommended would surely do no harm. And being a child, it was up to my parents to make those decisions and surely they would do the right thing. I had no idea how they used fear tactics to convince parents to let them hack away.

As a parent, I took what I learned and taught my daughter to be skeptical and have as little to do with medicine and doctors as necessary. If you are sick, they can't always make you well, but if you are well, they can certainly make you sick, or worse yet maim or even kill you. But don't overlook symptoms that tell you something is wrong. Already prevented one dentist from drilling away her perfectly good teeth by getting a second opinion.

I agree with your sentiment. It pains me whenever I learn of serious medical (and dental) mistakes, as I do nearly every day in my legal practice as a trial attorney, representing the victims of medical malpractice. Nevertheless, I think that it's important to separate your profoundly negative experience with that particular dentist from the entire panoply of medical science and research.

Evidently, your childhood dentist was a greedy drunk. That fact should not dissuade you from seeking important medical information from well-educated and well-trained physicians, dentists and CDC researchers. Whenever my loved ones need medical treatment, I research the doctor's credentials to ensure, as best as possible, that the physician possesses the requisite background.

Nobody is suggesting the wholesale abandonment of common sense. But, when really smart people give me advice, I tend to listen. Call me crazy.

#lol

The whole dental industry was a racket, not just one I visited, but the rest of his cronies as well, and in many cases it still is when it comes to children and their teeth. The better your insurance, the more work they want to do. I have several friends and acquaintances that experienced the same thing. One friend bluntly says "Oh yeah, my dentist destroyed my teeth when I was a kid" Oh and I guess the FDA thinks or at least says it's still harmless to fill teeth with mercury.

One thing I see most people do not consider is all these things you put into your body whether that be a vaccination of some sort or the Red #40 you ingest on a regular basis is these thing not only have an effect on you but your offspring as well. Something I myself never considered until one of my children was born with illness he will live with forever. I am not arguing one way or the other, just to point out that the choices you make go beyond just YOU.

I think that many people consider such factors as does the CDC. However, on the opposite end of the spectrum, many of us act on blind faith.

There are probably only a handful of categories which dictate decision-making. They are based upon:

1) critical thinking;
2) gut instinct;
3) revealed truth (blind faith).

I reject #3 since revealed truth is not grounded in science and cannot be tested and has, therefore, no predictive value.

Likewise, I reject #2 for the same reason and because capriciousness is instructive of nothing.

That leaves option #1. The flu shot issue has a myriad of moving parts. There's the big pharma profit motive angle. I understand that concern. There's the fear-provoking anecdotal reports. I am aware of those as well. There's the adverse reactions documented in respected scientific journals.

How does one sort out these complexities? It's tempting to place great emphasis upon big pharma's profit motive. But, to do so would mean adopting the notion that big pharma controls the worldwide scientific community, including the CDC.

As powerful as is the pharmaceutical lobby, I am unwilling to adopt that global conspiracy theory. As a result, my personal critical thinking approach defaults to the CDC's recommendation that the flu shot, on balance, enhances community and individual health. The CDC, in my view, is primarily influenced by the best available science.

To my ear, the arguments based on anecdotal fears, gut instincts and static religious grounds for rejecting the flu shot are the rock, paper, and scissors on the periphery. While I respect those who adhere to those constructs, I think that science, with all of its imperfections, offers highly valuable guidance to those of us who are not experts in the field of immunology and influenza.

.

The problem why this argument will never be solved is there are 2 very valid points on both sides to this argument. Vaccines work in most cases, but not all of the time (which is why people still get sick regardless of taking a vaccine). Also in some cases, vaccines cause adverse harm to your body which has long term effects on your cells and biology. Over the years these vaccines formulas have changed and/or been removed (rotavirus, limerick, etc). So being fearful of taking a vaccine is valid but there’s a trade off.

The measles virus has been effective overall reduced deaths related from 2.6 million in 1980 to 73,000 in 2014. So overall it works. But you can also die. But that’s gonna happen anyway regardless.

I guess if you’re worried about getting killed or ruined from taking the vaccine that’s fair. Just never leave your house and be around people. If you do take the vaccine though, there will most likely be some type of adverse affect found in the future and your children might grow up to be the creature of the black lagoon or whitewaters Sasquatch trapped in a pinball whirlpool. No vaccine is foolproof.

***Spoiler Alert*** Either way, you’re all gonna die. Sorry for the bad news.

Except me of course, cuz trolls live forever in the forums!

They could get rich beyond their wildest dreams and that doesn't bother me one bit. It's the overworked, underpaid workers handling the stuff that would concern me. That is if I was willing to let some low income worker collecting a check I don't know stick me with it.

Just like pinball machines, humans will self destruct....

In NJ, that's a variable over which the recipient has control. I have my primary care physician or pharmacist administer the shot.

A lot of text in this thread.

I got my flu shot yesterday. It was free at CVS.

Wow, my brother just went through the same thing. He's been getting his Flu shot for an easy twenty years with no ill effects; this year he got the flu shot and the shingle shot too and it was the first time he felt bad. He was down 1 day and said he felt like he had a mild cold for about 48 hrs.

I think that's the shingles vaccine. Both me and the wife felt like that. Better than shingles though.

Shingles has been on the rise. Interesting.

At Costco while picking up mom's prescription it wasn't "would you like a flu shot while you are here?"

It was "have you got your flu shot yet?"

"Sorry lady, I didn't order one and am not planning on it".

Nah no mystery, it's us baby boomers an the fact our immune systems are slowing.

I just saw this

C48A5B82-A7DB-471D-812F-FCAA86E4FCD8 (resized).jpeg

What does “Wddty” stand for?

Why not go straight to the WHO website where you would learn this doesn’t happen when the entire population is vaccinated. Problem is, their population isn’t 100% vaccinated. Maybe why they want to ramp up the program?

Your source is heavily biased towards antivaxing so no surprise they conveniently left that piece of information out.

WDDTY

LOL!

Perhaps you missed my anecdotal story where my 87YO stepfather "caught" shingles 2 weeks after the jab and is now deciding whether he can stand the pain of optical neuropathy or alleviate it by pulling the eye.

1. no population is ever 100% vaccinated.
2. https://www.who.int/csr/don/24-september-2019-polio-outbreak-the-philippines/en/
3. Is it "safe and effective"?
4. If this is admitted, what is not?

LOL, ask the kids that will live the rest of their lives debilitated how funny it is.

And in what fascist utopian world would that ever happen?

Good lord lol.

It’s like proposing that we get rid of seatbelts because a small percentage of people get trapped in a burning car and can’t escape (it actually makes even less sense than that)

No clear thinking person believes that a world with no polio vaccine is better than a world with the polio vaccine.

No matter what crazy anti science sites tell them.

LOL!

If anti science crazies didn’t stop their villages from getting vaccinated they wouldn’t be in a debilitated state to begin with.

A lack of empathy is the hallmark of a psychopath.

Exactly my point.

Cool deflection though!

You realize it happened to them because they weren’t vaccinated right?

You think eradication of polio globally outside of 3 countries just magically happens?

That’s the last time I’ll address you because you have other issues indicating you’re already too far gone “brother”.

Polio is one thing, but unless you didn't read the rest, confidence in vaccinations in the Philippines is at a low since dengue fever vaccine is blamed for killing several children in 2017.

Have you had your dengue fever vaccination yet? I'm sure there are a number of other deadly, contagious diseases you could take a poke in the arm for too that you haven't yet

My buddy Lenny got vaccinated for anthrax before he went to fight overseas. "In the military, you have no choice! They stick you with it and leave you in a foxhole sick as a dog for a month!"

Realistically the global polio vaccination rate is 85% and it seems to have done quite well...But way to overdramatize. Shocking.

So if they admit that vaccines can in fact have some serious side effects (which no one denies, the point is that the benefits far outweigh the risks), it follows that vaccines must in fact cause all side effects that anyone attributes to them, no matter how implausible the connection between the injection and the reaction?

Got my flu shot today as well as the rest of the family, and voted too!

....and now after banning the vaccine they are experiencing a dengue fever epidemic with over a thousand dead YTD.

Here's some irony in the American way of thinking and doing things.

There has been an outbreak of norovirus at the senior home where my mom is. I stopped by the front desk to drop off her medication this morning and everybody is wearing masks and they would not let anybody, myself included go any further than that not even to see my mother. But later in the afternoon they call me to come over and calm her down when she got a little riled up over something.

So which is it? We have a deadly outbreak here and we are trying to contain it, or we don't care if you get sick and spread it to the outside world as long as you can calm your mother down.

So did you get yours yet? With 1000 dead, shouldn't you be worried?

Some random nursing home in Cali doesn’t represent some sort of blanket “American way” of thinking.

If I lived in a tropical jungle climate without proper sanitation and had an option that gave me a 95% chance not to get dengue fever? Sign me up.

It isn't that common, but dengue fever also can and does happen in the continental USA. Along with many other third world diseases. And it's a whole lot worse than any flu. How is it we are not doing the herd immunization for all of those so a few people don't get sick?

Like you with dengue, one reason I don't get a flu shot because I'm not worried about getting it.

But, but, think of the children. Do you know there are some that can't take the jab? Don't you owe it to them?

When you say things that pose any challenge deeply held beliefs, they will attack your premise with complete dismissal of ever questioning their own beliefs. I don't know why, but I've seen this trend in many women I've known.

When shit hits the fan, it aint gonna be the flu, but something manufactured in the very same lab, or something nobody's worried about like dengue fever that does them all in. So in the end man's feeble efforts won't even matter.

Don't forget the Aluminum industry chemical waste product Fluoride for your child's young teeth and even gums. My sister gave the thumbs up to her child's dentist to give Fluoride paste treatment to her 8 month old. Fluoride is a neurotoxin. Good old Edward Bernays. For your safety....

Because it’s not needed here? How common is it in the US vs the flu?

To be clear, I’m fine with you not getting the flu shot. That’s your choice.

I just don’t know how we’ve gotten to the point of parents putting their kids in danger because they don’t want to immunize against polio, tetanus, measles, etc. Not a huge risk when everyone else around you is immunized, but what happens when no one does? What happens? I mean let’s all go back to a time where we can hope to live to the ripe old age of 40. Sounds good!