All true. It’s important for people to understand that like any medical treats not, vaccines are not risk-free (along with the fact that the likelihood of a bad reaction to a vaccine is generally extremely small).

The limits on liability for vaccine-related injuries are tied into the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, which from their website “is a Federal ‘no-fault’ system designed to compensate individuals, or families of individuals, who have been injured by childhood vaccines, whether administered in the private or public sector.” Two purposes as I understand it: make sure that people get paid consistently and quickly if they do get injured, and limit liability to encourage companies to keep making low-profit vaccines, which they might otherwise not do (at least historically this has been a real problem, and not just the usual corporate grousing). Again, good stuff to know about, all in the context of very low rates of vaccine-related injury.

Government lying is also real thing.

Just saying.

2 sides of this argument, doubt anyone is switching.

Choose your poison as they say.

The problem with choosing not to get the vaccine is that it isn't just a personal choice. People who choose that also negatively affect the health of people around them.

Compare it to the same reason you can no longer smoke in the vast majority of public places. You can do almost anything you want to your own body, but it sucks if your decisions impact others.

The government may lie, I don't disagree with you there, but the science behind this all is sound.

There's no denying there are plenty of mad scientists out there.

Who knows what all they are cooking up in their laboratories these days just waiting to be unleashed on the world.

How does it affect anyone who has chosen to get a vaccine?

He's just tooting his horn again.

There are plenty of sick vaccinated people that have no problem coming into my work and sharing their sickness with me.

They think it's OK now just because they got a shot.

You guys hear of “shedding” ?

Recently vaccinated people shedding the virus getting others sick around them.

I don't know if it's called shedding, but the coughing and sneezing and snot running out their nose out in public sure is real.

"I'm vaccinated, let's go shopping!"

See, this whole deal about those not getting vaccinated putting others at risk and not being considerate is a whole crock of shit when you consider some vaccinated people don't give a shit about anybody around them but themselves either.

In fact, those are the kind of people that really only care about themselves and their wants and needs, from what I gather.

Edit- added the word "some"

Easily debunked with a quick google...

"Viral shedding is part of the mechanism of virus transmission. Shedding is impossible with killed vaccines or those made using only isolated proteins (most vaccines fall into one of these two classes), but a small number of vaccines contain live attenuated virus which can theoretically infect others."

Small number.

In honor of shedding, I think I might go to where they are handing out shots, where people feel secure that they are no longer a threat to others and shed a little gas.

What if Pinside got vaccinated so it couldn't "shed" you out of 90% of threads & topics?

It tried that once, but I mutated.

See prior post re: "herd immunity" and fact that vaccines are almost never 100% effective:

Doesn't mean you have to change your behavior. But if you're claiming your decision not to get vaccinated has zero effect on anyone else, you are wrong.

Two purposes as I understand it: make sure that people get paid consistently and quickly if they do get injured, and limit liability to encourage companies to keep making low-profit vaccines, which they might otherwise not do.

I.e. they got sued by too many people for too much money so they had to make a limit. Thats one of my issues.

Exactly. So if vaccines are never 100%, then getting them isnt worth it to a lot of people. And the herd immunity is just a theory anyways. Would only work under perfect conditions.. not realistic.

hahhaa, aint that the truth!

If you saw the people lining up at Walmart to get flu shots, that would be very obvious.

The same place getting everyone sick is the place giving out the remedy... interesting isnt it? lol

Right. In a normal scenario, you'd just set the price of your drug high enough to cover the cost of side-effect lawsuits (which you'll get with almost any medicine, or any product for that matter). But you can't easily do that with vaccines, which generally only work really well when enough people get them, which sort of requires that they be cheap and plentifully available.

If you're a pharma company CEO and your big plan is to make a fortune on vaccines, your board and shareholders will shitcan you faster than you can blink. The real drug money's elsewhere -- painkillers, baldness cures, erectile dysfunction, chronic indigestion -- and there's plenty more cash to be made before the whole system runs to ground and we wind up with socialized medicine.

I'm trying to figure out if they go to the McDonalds first or get the shot first.

Next time I'm in there, that might make a good research project.

I might get the flu shot if we can combine a #1 value meal into the injection as well....

Supersize it!

Sure, some folks can't really wrap their head around odds and probabilities. There's still a cost/benefit decision to be made and that's yours to make, my only beef is if you're trying to publicly justify your decision with demonstrably false statements.

Yes, herd immunity is "just a theory." Gravity is also just a theory. The planets revolving around the sun is also just a theory. Theories are all that science can ever produce. One issue is that most people don't understand what scientists mean by the word "theory," and that there's a wide range of certainty among scientific theories such that criticizing something as being "just a theory" has little meaning. But if you want unshakable certainty, you'll have to go to church.

Incorrect. Herd immunity works under far less than perfect conditions. It can never guarantee that you as an individual won't get sick (you'll need to maintain perfect isolation if you want that), but who promised you that? It's just increasing your odds of not getting sick, along with the odds of everyone else in the "herd."

Perhaps if they stopped using that word.

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Hey, you guys "herd" about that new hpv thing?

Better get all children immunized quickly! All I see are commercials, so it must be urgent. Real guilt trip stuff. No time to think!

Seriously though, I'm surprised we don't see more flu shot commercials scaring us. Just smiling faces of where to get them.

"Herd" is bad branding, maybe, but it's on-point scientifically. I think one of the big disconnects today is that scientists are not very good at communicating their results to a non-expert audience, and are shocked when politicians and talking heads (who often know little about the underlying issues but are good at communicating basic points in compelling ways) seize the wheel.

I'm admittedly a pessimist, but I think we've essentially run up against the limits of human cognition. We're evolved to hunt, gather, and respond to the social dynamics of a tribe of 20-150 people, not to comprehend or make intelligent decisions about mass-society, biology, chemistry, climate science, and the like. Now that we've developed the technology to meaningfully meddle with those things, we're probably hosed. Oh well, humans have had a pretty good run, glad I'm lucky enough to be alive today and enjoy some of the fruits of all that work (pinball and beer, specifically) before it all goes south.

As soon as mine is old enough.

I just worry about the urgency aspect. Seems as though we're led further and further without any discussion. What's worse is we are informed through a drug ad on tv.

Who pays for that ad I wonder? Besides the public I mean. Is it a WHO advertisement? Is it a Big Pharma buying the air time? Would be interesting to know.

See, I've never thought of myself as part of a herd.

And when you live in an place that is way more crowded than it used to be, with a lot of obese, unhealthy people and it's having an affect on the way of life you are used to, it isn't bad in my mind to just let nature take it's course.

Well I don't really get the "urgency" part of what you're saying, so let's put that aside.
Maybe you were informed by a TV commercial, but the vaccine has been used for over 10 years around the world. It's sort of like old news by now.

Look at the bottom of the commercial and it will tell you the company that pays for the ad. It's a commercial, you don't have to wonder whom pays for a Coke commercial, Coke does. You don't have to wonder whom makes boner pill commercials, Pfizer does.
They have to try to get all the monies they can before the generic drugs come in.

Well from the flu's perspective, you're definitely part of a herd, just one more potential host!

Fair point, vaccines aren't the only decision we make that affects others. We're social animals (even if you don't want to belong to a herd), and pretty much everything we do has some kind of consequences for other people.

I assume he's asking why they want his 11 year old to get the HVP vaccine.

Answer: Most kids still go to the doctor regularly when they're 11 so doing it then increases the chance they'll get vaccinated well before they become sexually active. I'd bet that annual physical rates drop off as kids enter high school.

Oh if that's the case I don't know why they make them wait so long! I'd roll it right into the OG baby shots if possible.

If condoms are used HPV is not a problem. Since STD are pretty much rampant I would never go scuba diving without a wetsuit

You have a daughter and a grandaughter right? What happens if the bad men raped them? You'd want them protected from cancer.
I mean, I sure as shit do.

EDIT: Too "far out?" OK how aboot when your daughter's piece of shit husband cheated on her? What if she ended up getting cancer becasue that rat bastard went behind her back?

In this case, “theory” is just an idea and far from being accurate. Hence the reason for so much back and forth debate over the issue.

Man, if everyones is going to prepare for the worst case scenario to such extremes, might as well never leave the house.

Well you got me there

Fair enough, that's news to me. I only saw aggressive advertising the past 3 years or so.

Perhaps we are entering the remainder of allotted time before the generic equivalent is available, thus the rush (in my eyes)?

Thanks

Some are heading to Uranus.

What's your basis for saying that "herd immunity" is a far from accurate and "just an idea?" I'll admit I'm not an epidemiologist so I'm not expert, but the basic concept seems pretty straightforward to me, and I think it's well supported by studies.

A good example of "herd immunity" is how they took care of the cattle in the 1963 Paul Newman movie "Hud".

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I'd like to see the actuarial analysis of this scenario.

As I’m out here harvesting this beautiful bounty of organic produce today, I can’t help but wonder if perfect health isn’t as simple as soil, seeds & water?
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Its concept is easy to understand and does make sense, but its just not possible to be done in reality due to all the factors that go against it. Yes, theres science supporting it but theres also science against it to be taken into account.

Need plenty of sunshine too. Clean air optional.

Here's some more interesting reading about the center that has our health and well being as their top priority.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/01/04/cdc-secret-lab-incidents-select-agents/95972126/