There have been licenced pins that do well, and others that have bombed. The same for unlicenced. A lot of factors go into what makes a pin successful, and not all necessarily have to do with the pin itself.

Impossible to tell these days, since an original theme game hasn't been made by a major company in more than a decade. And the boutique makers can't produce enough to be able to tell in the market.

I personally don't care for licensed themes in the least.

America's Most Haunted isn't a licensed game, it's an original theme.

Everyone says "make an original theme!" and Spooky and Ben did.

And we've had FAR less pre-orders than Predator, so to answer OP's question: Yes.

Licensed is the way to go in the current pinball climate. back in the early 90's Ops bought everything because pinball was hot.

America's Most Haunted is a fantastic original themed game but I'm sure it would sell like crazy if it was licensed as Scooby Doo instead. I also don't think Big Lebowski would have much of a chance for success if it was just a generic bowling theme.

I'm guessing Pat Lawlor's Unlicensed game might do some brisk pre-sales, assuming the Hobbit gets made promptly and without all the snags that WOZ encountered. just sayin'...

Give Pat full creative control and any pin of his is going to sell! he sold over 6k games of a pin based on road construction and country music.

licensed games are easier to sell prior to people seeing layouts or playing them. It's really quite silly, if you ask me. It's a fact, though.

AMH vs Predator is a very good comparison. Both are first releases from new companies but one is actually released, has more interactive features, and is outsold many times over because one has a license and AMH does not.

I thought for sure AMH would have sold out. Agree with Lawlor comments above I am very excited to see every game that Lawlor or Borg touches they are on fire as of late IMHO.

I think licenses sell better initially. Unsure of overall numbers on route.

That said Ben Heck if you have some of these left send me the info I am still interested.
Biggest problem is so many big games coming out and only so much monies.

Still cracks me up that Pat Lawlor said in almost as many words that they never should have been allowed to make and sell TZ the way they did, and the players still ate it up to the point where it sold over 15,000 units. (Just imagine the alternate universe somewhere where TZ outsold TAF...)

on location I can assure you licensed themes do better...

someone off the street has no idea what a medieval madness is but they know what Batman Dark Knight is

Advertise!

I agree, I have operated both, a GOOD license makes the difference.

My personal thought is that a good licensed theme can get you a good number of up front sales. An unlicensed does not get that benefit, therefore it must stand on it's own merits. I wouldn't be surprised if AMH eventually surpasses Predator in sales, it's just going to be slower process due to people having to discover the game first. With the games going out now, I would expect their orders to start picking up as people start getting exposed to it.

Did you ever get your IMVE or did you decide not to get one?

I ordered one three days after the announcement. don't have it yet as i had to delay shipping due to a vacation. It's supposed to show up tomorrow but i have no tracking info yet so i better contact my distributor i guess.

lol, MM would kill BDK on location. Why do you think they're so damn expensive?

It's not THAT silly. If you make a machine based on a well loved franchise people are going to be drawn to it. It makes a lot of sense to base pins on established themes. I would like to see some original themes from Stern and the others though.

Cool man hope you enjoy it!

In this market, the games need to be licensed.

I would've never purchased my Transformers game if it were just a generic theme. Transformers was my favorite cartoon and toy as a kid, which lead me to the movies, which lead me to the pinball machine.

Would AC/DC have sold as well as it did, if it wasn't based on one of the world's most popular bands?

Bingo. It's a plus that AC/DC is *also* a killer game (unlike TF lol...sorry) ...but yeah, I pre-ordered Lebowksi BEACAUSE it's Lebowski. I've always wanted a Lebowski pinball machine, so even if it's mediocre - I think I'd love it. I'm sure whatever Lawlor's working will be cool -but since I won't have any attachment to the theme - I'd have to wait and see it for myself before considering a purchase.

I'll be the first one to admit that my favorite game (transformers) isn't well liked. But what makes the game my favorite, is because of the theme. I love the way it plays, but that's arbitrary. I would argue that a majority of games play well.

It's just the theme adds that extra layer of enjoyment on top of the game.

However, the game does need to be good to be successful. Star Wars is my favorite movie of all-time (prequels stunk, I'm referring to original trilogy.) 4 Star Wars games, and I find all 4 to be rather blah. The episode 1 is probably my favorite of the bunch...but I could never own it because it is Episode 1.

If Stern or JJP made a good Star Wars game, that was themed great, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

The worst non-licensed themes were the ones from the 80's that tried to ride to mimic a real theme.

I wonder if how much more money Gottlieb/Premier could have made if they would have secured the real license versus the knock off Hollywood Heat and Gold Wings?

A tad more salesmanship might help. Haven't really seen anything, anywhere.

I guarantee you it would not... pinheads know what a MM is, normal people don't know and/or care... I operate machines on location, tried original themes, they don't make money

Do licenses work in reverse for anyone? I only consider a licensed game if I already like the license.

Generally, if I see a machine on location, I play it to support pinball in general. But if it is a theme I don't like/care for/know, I usually pass. The major exception to this that I can remember was when I saw LOTR in the Minneapolis airport a few years ago - I played that for at least 1/2 hour, even though I knew little about the story/theme. (I have played some AC/DC - but only on free play - and I would not own one because of the theme).

Whenever I see an unlicensed theme game I always play at least once (though that is a rare occurrence these days).

I dropped out of AMH in January, but seriously thinking about getting one now. For the PPS remakes I'm only interested in the possible non-licensed titles (AFM, BBB, CC, TOM).

And, unless Lawlor's game is a total mis-fire, I'm likely to get that day one, mostly because it will be a Lawlor game, but in part because it will have original artwork and an original theme.

FH, AFM, TOM, MM (and maybe Whitewater) all did well on location so unlicensed themes can work.

I think when you go to sell, people like the fact they know something about the theme. Maybe licensed games may resell better, especially to newbies.

Most unlicensed games are basically knock-offs of unlicensed games in some way. AFM wouldn't have changed much had it been tied to a license of one of the 50s sci-fi films it was obviously inspired by. Similarly, MM may have been even more popular had it been a Monty Python and the Holy Grail pin.

There are very few "original" pins of the modern era that are truly original in theme and execution.

That something is part of a massive tie in is just one of the requirements for a product to stand out these days. At my local arcade, the most popular machine is Super Mario Mushroom World because it has brand recognition with the mostly casual crowd that frequents the arcade. None of the pinheads even touch that machine.

We should at least be thankful that the way pinball is being made has changed in such a way that we rarely get dud themes like The Shadow, Congo, Frankenstein, Demolition Man, Barb Wire, etc. anymore.

You are basing this off of owning/routing mm?

Just walk into any casino.

Every electronic game is a licensed theme.

This is a good comparison. Lots of people are nostalgic for the unlicensed pins of the 90s, and so were slots of that era. The slots companies have clued in that it is better for business to tie in a license and that is why they don't create unlicensed themes anymore either.

I can tell you licensed is what gets people to stop and play a game, or to preorder site unseen. Reality is licensing works, that's why successful marketing campaigns use it. McDonalds uses it for free toys....why? Kids want them more. You wouldn't go buy a pair of "hacknbuseeshee" roller blades for your 7 year old girl, but you would buy a pair of "Frozen" ones made by the same company, dispite them being low quality crap......why? Because your baby girl wants licensed/frozen stuff. It's not about the t-shirt, it's about what's on it.

Licensed games make or break the operator, it has to make someone stop and put money into it. If it is the theme of a movie they absolutely love, they or more apt to try it. Pinheads are a different breed but we are influenced as well. Many didn't buy Mustang due to theme (great game). I called many of my regular "new stern customers" who said "the theme is not for me".

Example (think like an average shmo)
You walk by a new game called "Roboman" has a blue robot guy on the back glass, reminds you of a super shiney power ranger......does the average shmo stop?

Now think like a pinhead......Stern is releasing "Roboman" do you preorder? Or wait to see, do you get excited....wow they are finally making Roboman! I can't wait! I am on the preorder list!

It doesn't matter that it's the exact same game and rule set as Ironman, but instead Stern opted to license Roboman, and no doubt Ironman will get more attention than Roboman.

I will also add, having the license does not change the game (make it good or bad), it doesn't change anything accept that the theme is a sure bet, and popular. So for $50 a game why not take the theme everyone loves? Why not piggy pack on a popular movie that is all ready selling a bajillion dollars worth of licensed stuff? It doesn't cost all that much more to add the license. Oh yeah, because the "Roboman" toys are flying off the shelf for top dollar...........

Licensing is worth the investment for a company like Stern as they don't have to come up with a theme on their own. That is such a massive time saver in itself that it makes the fee for licensing seem modest. The theme often lends itself to what sort of features the game would include as well, it allows them to bang out games much faster than starting from scratch would.

Unfortunately, that is also the problem with licensing. It often does not leave much room for creativity art-wise other than the gadgetry in the playfield. Fine if you enjoy the themes, but can seem dated years later, especially with all the movie reboots lately.

There is also the ugly middle ground. Not knocking fans/owners of the game I'm using as example, but looking back at unlicensed themes from the 80's like Space Invaders shows what happens when you try to capitalize on pop culture without paying the licensing fees. That may have worked at the time period when arcades were in full force, but could you imagine a game like that being released these days? Not only would they be sued into the next dimension (which I believe they were sued for Ailens similarities at the time), but there would probably be a 100 page thread bashing it on here alone.

So in the end, the risk of failing with an original theme is not worth it to Stern. If we want to see amazing original art, it is going to come from the smaller guys. Wrath of Olympus looks amazing I hope to see more like it in the future.

Great point - maybe (most) licensed themes are actually less expensive to produce. Never even considered that.

Around 1995 B/W started doing mostly original themes and that's when their sales started a downward trajectory.

Licenses can help with the rules. "Oh I have to collect the characters from the movie" "Oh I have to smash that thing from the movie"

If you're Pat Lawlor or Jpop you can sell an original theme, but still, the DESIGNER is the "license" in that case.

Familiarity sells. It's why people my age take their kids to garbage remakes of stuff we remember from our childhood (TMNT, Smurfs)

That's why I like licenses that come with less baggage. Metallica is practically an original theme, there's nothing "off the shelf" about the art and design, it just uses the band as an anchor for the game. It's gonna age really well compared to say, Spider-Man, which already seems old with the way they rebooted the franchise.

Yep, great point, the band pins have much more creative license than the movie pins. Metallica is a great example of creative and good modern licensed artwork. It is just a shame I'm not a fan of them (anymore). I'm a pre-90's fan of their stuff.

very good point, ben. I bet they could sell out a limited edition (say 1000) of Brian Eddy pins at $8K in a day, independent of any other details.

To be fair, all pinball sales had a downward trajectory regardless if they were licensed or not. The Sega games didn't have any better sales and they were mainly licensed.

Godzilla, X-Files, Independence Day, Jurassic Park World, Star Ship Troopers, Lost in Space were selling even less than B/W original themes.

Pinball was just on a decline and really nothing could have stopped the collapse.

I do believe licensed themes do help sell more pins.

I have heard Gary say over and over at his seminars that he won't do unlicensed themes because operators will not pre-order original themes. He says that pre-orders on an original would not even be in the hundreds. Every thread on Pinside that asks what would make a great pin, 99% mention a licensed theme, with lots of posts of being an instant buy without one feature mentioned. So, yeah I would say licensing makes a big difference.

I wonder how hard it'd be to get license for a cheech-n-chong up in smoke pinball machine.. I'd described some of the possibilities for it in a cult classics thread. very old movie now but to me its a better idea for a machine theme than 'dazed and confused', funny too but nowhere near as classic as the guys!

Merchan-dizing! Merchan-dizing!

mel-brooks-revealed-the-secret-to-the-hunger-games-money-making-power-back-in-1987.jpg

And oddly enough, the very game I'm talking about in the background:
[Movie]Spaceballs (1987)_01.jpg

I was thinking a "The Price is Right" game show themed pinball would basically design itself. You could have Plinko in the backbox, a "Big Wheel"-themed toy, Barker's beauties, and video mode pricing games. Lends itself much better to pinball than WOF.

Coming up with an original idea, developing it & marketing it effectively is almost certainly more expensive in most cases than taking a well-known brand and adapting it for pinball. As Ben points out, an original theme for JJP #3 works because Lawlor himself is a respected brand among collectors.

I'd buy one just for Plinko, hahaha! Damn, I sold out on my ideals. And that is how it happens.

In my experience, it's not a licensed vs unlicensed argument. It's really a great game vs a mediocre or bad game thing.

I have not seen anything come close to sustaining earnings like MM, and I've put many a newer licensed Stern up against it (Met LE, Tron LE, Av LE, ST Pro, SM, XM,etc). Once in a while, the new kid on the block may slightly outearn MM for the first few weeks, but after that they always drop off while MM maintains. I took MM out for a few months to shop it and people were constantly asking when it was coming back. Conversely, HSII earned well below average it's entire tenure and this was a shopped, tuned up machine that worked perfect; people just didn't dig it I guess. The familiarity of a license may get some to try it initially, but only a good to great game design will keep them craving.

HAHAHA! Is that for real? Please tell me that happened on national TV.

Sorry Ben, but I think this is a slightly misgudied statement.

There is a very simple solution to you selling 250 AMH and if you want to make a true comparison that is apples to apples concenring liscenced or not, then you need to:

1. Sell AMH for $4750
2. Limit the production run to 250
3. Advertise more/better

I am pretty sure that these things play a MUCH bigger factor than the liscensed/unliscensed factor. Limit your run to 250 and drop your price to 5750 and I bet you would have sold out 250 and have a waiting list 50 deep.

I can tell you 100% that if I could get AMH for $4750 and there were only 250 being made then I would have bought AMH. Actually I would still buy it for $4750 and put it on route as soon as I get it if you want to do it