(Topic ID: 148324)

Do coils degrade or just fail?

By Manimal

8 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 13 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Jr99svt
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 8 years ago

For those f you that repair these things every day, I have a questions pertaining to coils. I installed a new power board in a Williams game for unrelated reset issues (Caused by heat) that were disclosed when I bought the machine. All was good for a short while, however I quickly lost the transistor on the new board which powers the ball plunger. I traced everything back, and there are no shorts, loose connections, etc. The molex connectors were replaced a while back as well, so I know they are good, and I did not lose any fuses. I replaced the 20A Transistor with exact replacement and lost it again after about an hour of play. Replaced that with a little bit bigger capacity (36A) and all is good. Been playing fine for several days and no issues. Diode on the coil is good, and the coil tested at 3.3 Ohms Resistance, In looking at the original game specs, it appears 20A was the designated transistor value, and it did NOT blow the 20A transistor on the original board, but does on the replacement. These boards do have a reputation for being a bit "hot" on the high voltage side, but for a momentary load such as a ball plunger, It is hard to imagine something in excess of a 20A load dropping the transistor. So for the gurus out there, do these coils degrade over time where the load will increase? Most of my experience has been that they will just short and fail? I figure it is a small price to replace the coil and diode just as PM, but was curious as to others experience? Thanks

#2 8 years ago

20 amp and 36 amp transistors? What parts are you specifically talking about? You said you did an exact replacement what is the part number. Do you mean the TIP36c at Q80?

Coils don't normally need to be replaced. If the driver transistor locks the coil on it may heat up and get damaged. The wire coating getting scratched can cause a short. Shock might break a connection in lug.

#3 8 years ago

Coils usually last forever until some solid state part fails and overheats them.

#4 8 years ago

Coils are, for the most part, fairly robust. Besides the most common failure of a short between windings, heat is the next biggest destructive force for coils. As temperature rises, resistance also rises, increasing electrical losses and causing further heat build up. This phenomenon is a primary cause of coil failure. If you get a momentary coil that gets stuck on longer than it should, the first thing you may notice is the coil getting warm, or even very hot. If the problem is not addressed, this most certainly will kill the coil eventually.

#5 8 years ago

It was Q80 (20N10L) and I ended up replacing it with an IRL540N which I thought were a little more robust at 36A?. The coil wasn't locked on or overheating, which was why I couldn't understand the transistor fail. I would only notice it because my ball launch would fail. The button would activate fine on the matrix switch test, however the coil would not fire on the selenoid test. I could get the coil to fire by hooking it to another coil circuit, so everything appears fine outside of the transistor fail.

#6 8 years ago

Transistors do fail. The IRL540 is a better (beefier) replacement for the 20N10L.

The problem is when they fail closed and lock the coil on as soon as the game is powered on. I've had smoke come out I gets so hot.

#7 8 years ago
Quoted from Manimal:

It was Q80 (20N10L) and I ended up replacing it with an IRL540N

Is Q80 normally a power FET? I thought these drivers were normally TIP36C (around 25A collector current and should be more than sufficient for this circuit I would think)

#8 8 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Is Q80 normally a power FET? I thought these drivers were normally TIP36C (around 25A collector current and should be more than sufficient for this circuit I would think)

You had me wondering about the original board, so I went back and checked, and you are correct. It is a TIP36C. The Rottendog board I bought and installed use a 20N10L for that circuit, which may explain why it was failing. As you stated, I put in a bit beefier transistor and since that seems to have solved the issue, I am going to say the load must me really close to 20A, which I would think is a lot for that particular circuit?

#9 8 years ago
Quoted from Manimal:

You had me wondering about the original board, so I went back and checked, and you are correct. It is a TIP36C. The Rottendog board I bought and installed use a 20N10L for that circuit, which may explain why it was failing. As you stated, I put in a bit beefier transistor and since that seems to have solved the issue, I am going to say the load must me really close to 20A, which I would think is a lot for that particular circuit?

OK, I wasn't sure...I'm not by any means an expert on WPC, I've never owned one.

The initial inrush surge on a momentary coil circuit can certainly be in excess of 20A, remember this is not a continuous duty current - it's a very brief surge. This is why time delay fuses are used in coil circuits.

2 months later
#10 8 years ago

I am having a similar issue on my Whitewater at Q76. Rottendog has been very supportive and sent a replacement board. Both boards fail after a few games at Q76 (lockup popper). I took similar steps in confirming there were not shorts or bad connections. I replaced the 20N10L with the exact one used on the board sent by Rottendog. It works for a while, then fails. What could be causing this? Q76 is only controlled by the Power Driver board, all the wires come directly from it, all other coils on the circuit work, as well as all flashers. Is using a beefier transistor the only answer? Will with have any negative effects long term?

Would this work?

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/International-Rectifier/IRL540NPBF/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMshyDBzk1%2fWi5%252bqVgN3%252bWS88iBXP4BpZM0%3d

#11 8 years ago

Also to note, everything (minus the GI and reset, why I decided to replace in the first place) works as it should with the original board. This is how I concluded the problem was with the transistor in the first place.

2 years later
#12 5 years ago
Quoted from Tlamb:

I am having a similar issue on my Whitewater at Q76. Rottendog has been very supportive and sent a replacement board. Both boards fail after a few games at Q76 (lockup popper). I took similar steps in confirming there were not shorts or bad connections. I replaced the 20N10L with the exact one used on the board sent by Rottendog. It works for a while, then fails. What could be causing this? Q76 is only controlled by the Power Driver board, all the wires come directly from it, all other coils on the circuit work, as well as all flashers. Is using a beefier transistor the only answer? Will with have any negative effects long term?
Would this work?
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/International-Rectifier/IRL540NPBF/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMshyDBzk1%2fWi5%252bqVgN3%252bWS88iBXP4BpZM0%3d

I am having the same issue on my Whitewater. Q76 lockup popper tranistor blew last night while I had family over playing so Whitewater was done for the night. What transistor did you use to replace it the old one with?

1 month later
#13 5 years ago

Back in the day, when i was working on Route use machines, 90% of the time a coil fried when the transistor failed closed. If coil showed signs of damage, either looked burned, or swelled up, standard op was replace coil, transistor, and pre driver transistor. if damage was bad, maybe a diode and resistor, because i didn't want to pull the board 2 or 3 times.

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