(Topic ID: 177690)

DMD's just became the new VHS


By thedarkknight77

2 years ago



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    #151 2 years ago

    Its not going to kill the prices of dmds. Look at super nintendo games. The good ones are going for 50-300 dollars. Even gamecube games. I bought a mario party for 40 dollars. Thats probably the cost of it brand new back in the day. Yes there are hd xbox and ps4 games but that doesnt mean they are more fun. Its all about GAMEPLAY!

    #152 2 years ago

    I use this saying often. When discussing solar power with my wife I said "I want the new blu-ray player tech on the roof that's coming in a few years". Not on old VHS player that people are currently installing.

    Good times

    #153 2 years ago

    "Education is the key to success."

    Price speculation and fluctuations on popularity is never the basis of market reality, especially based on lack of understanding pinball history, not evaluating the full perspective of a market, or basing observations on sales auction sites.

    Do a quick archive search on RGP of the following words:

    Pin prices. The death of the EM market??
    https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/Pin$20prices.$20The$20death$20of$20the$20EM$20market$3F$3F%7Csort:relevance/rec.games.pinball/RqKoOpUtFOQ/q4t9AVbAVwkJ

    Short review of events in the EM market, several years after WMS closure. DMD used pin sales were booming for a short while, but eventually stalled. This was a shortly after the start of the "reimport era". Many people improperly assumed that the only collectible EMs were wood rails. Stern, the only company at the time, was struggling to sell any games at all. Prices do fluctuate, they do not always go up even when people expect it to do so. In 20 years the same things will occur with DMD games, IF board sets are still available.
    Think about this when you try and find parts for games with obsolete components such is what is occurring currently with WPC 95 A/V boards. The simple answer is games getting cannibalized for parts, because they cannot be properly fixed.

    When the popularity drops so does prices, including LCD games. Manufacturer closures can makes thing very interesting for collectors and the market. It has happened multiple times in the past 40 years, although "Top 10" machines remain steady regarding cost.

    This same discussion has been posted on multiple website forums and debated eternally.

    Even now manufacturers are beginning to struggle again.

    One is try to monopolize the market and force out competition in order to retain their supremacy, no real industry benefit here as this just leads to continued higher prices, less new title selection, and quicker stall of the current market.
    The next manufacturer is trying to capitalize exclusively to high end buyers which there are only a limited number of buyers.
    Another manufacturer is trying to develop machine titles that are original in order to find its place in the industry and try to be affordable.
    Yet another manufacturer is trying to manage to produce enough machines at all to remain profitable, and in limited numbers.
    One manufacturer is simply trying not declare bankruptcy as they struggle financially to build a second machine which is not ready.
    Finally, the last manufacturer has no established footing whatsoever, and went back to the drawing board as they were premature, not ready, and not prepared for development let alone ready to build a machine.

    People that believe the industry is "healthy" are fooling themselves in a false sense of security.
    All but one manufacturer is only one title at a time off from potential failure based on monetary growth.
    Market wise the hobby is reasonably healthy and certainly growing, but things change quickly, as many old collectors can share personally.

    #154 2 years ago

    What if...

    A reeeeally good pinball player worked @ Stern coding games

    Aaaaand

    Another reeeeally good pinball player got a job designing games.

    Aaaaaand together they made a really cool LCD game. Say, hypothetically, the theme was Archer...

    No way I'd chase down a ST Pro with a red DMD

    RIP DMD

    #155 2 years ago

    ^^^^lol.
    People will still buy them for the nostalgia. Plus they will be harder to get over the years which will keep prices up expecially on nice condition machines.

    #156 2 years ago
    Quoted from PW79:

    A reeeeally good pinball player worked @ Stern coding games
    Aaaaand
    Another reeeeally good pinball player got a job designing games.

    ...and they squandered their talents trying to give people eye candy for the tv strapped onto their pinball machine? It would be a huge waste of resources, imo. It's the design of the game itself that i would be focusing on. But then again, when i want to play pinball i prefer to actually pay attention to the action on the playfield. All those animations will get old, anyway. I found myself paying less and less attention to the screen on WOZ, and skipping the animations whenever possible...because i want to play pinball, not watch movie clips.

    If KME and Mr. Sheats teamed up for a game, i'd be far more interested in the playfield design and rules than whether or not there's a tv showing clips of a movie or tv show.

    Of course, i can't afford any of these games anyway. But that's ok, I'm happy collecting classic SS games with *gasp* numeric displays!

    That said, I wouldn't hesitate to drop a few bucks in AS or BM66. I just don't think it's the ground-breaking tech that pinball has "needed" all this time.

    #157 2 years ago
    Quoted from Mfsrc791:

    ^^^^lol.
    People will still buy them for the nostalgia. Plus they will be harder to get over the years which will keep prices up expecially on nice condition machines.

    And if the freeplay40's of the world, the rottendogs, the terry's, and the steeve youngs age out? Parts dry up and the value of games fall. You are assuming that there is going to be a ready supply of replacement parts and that isn't a sure thing.

    One of the problems we face now is that ttl chips are in many cases no longer being produced. In some cases people are adapting surface mount via adapters, but that is beyond the scope of the average hobbyist. As old stock dries up someone will have to step up to design replacement parts and there is nothing to say that anyone will. An unplayable game is a worthless game.

    #158 2 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    In some cases people are adapting surface mount via adapters, but that is beyond the scope of the average hobbyist. As old stock dries up someone will have to step up to design replacement parts and there is nothing to say that anyone will. An unplayable game is a worthless game.

    and this in turn could open up opportunities for people who do have the ability to do these types of things. Either that or the average hobbyist will up their soldering game. Soldering on surface mount stuff is not that hard to do for the most part.

    #159 2 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    And if the freeplay40's of the world, the rottendogs, the terry's, and the steeve youngs age out? Parts dry up and the value of games fall. You are assuming that there is going to be a ready supply of replacement parts and that isn't a sure thing.
    One of the problems we face now is that ttl chips are in many cases no longer being produced. In some cases people are adapting surface mount via adapters, but that is beyond the scope of the average hobbyist. As old stock dries up someone will have to step up to design replacement parts and there is nothing to say that anyone will. An unplayable game is a worthless game.

    If the demand is there the parts will be made. So the question is will the demand be there? With nib game prices rising there will still be a demand for older cheaper games. Doesnt mean the prices will plummet...

    -1
    #160 2 years ago
    Quoted from Mfsrc791:

    If the demand is there the parts will be made. So the question is will the demand be there? With nib game prices rising there will still be a demand for older cheaper games. Doesnt mean the prices will plummet...

    Never understood this logic. There is massive demand for hundreds of repo parts, that have never been remade. Just because there is demand does not mean someone steps in to fill it.

    Quoted from Haymaker:

    and this in turn could open up opportunities for people who do have the ability to do these types of things. Either that or the average hobbyist will up their soldering game. Soldering on surface mount stuff is not that hard to do for the most part.

    Figuring out how to adapt a surface mount chip to a ttl socket is not *easy*. It requires an adapter to be made which is beyond hobbyists. As it is most hobbyists run from surface mount work so good luck on getting them to up their game.

    #161 2 years ago

    LCD's haven't impressed me yet

    Clips from movies or shows just don't do anything for me. and the animations so far look cheesy and cheap

    The DMD has a sort of charm about it, a lcd feels like it has no soul.

    a lcd could work great but it would take a lot of work and passion.I just don't see them looking great without a team of graphic artists.

    Sometimes less is more.

    personally I think GB TWD or MET will age better than WOZ BM66 or Aerosmith, Like how SNES games age better than PS1.

    Eventually LCD in pinball will look good, so I guess this rant is useless, but lcds in pins look crappy to me at the moment. I might be the minority but at least I know I'm not alone

    color dots do look great btw

    #162 2 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    Never understood this logic. There is massive demand for hundreds of repo parts, that have never been remade. Just because there is demand does not mean someone steps in to fill it.

    Figuring out how to adapt a surface mount chip to a ttl socket is not *easy*. It requires an adapter to be made which is beyond hobbyists. As it is most hobbyists run from surface mount work so good luck on getting them to up their game.

    Pin to pin adapters is trivial... and with 'on demand' manufacturing now (and growing) your dooms day scenarios are far less likely in the future than they've been in the past.

    If the demand is there (and economically viable), when the interest/demand intersect... someone will put forth the effort. Be it hobbyist, or small business... necessity is the mother of invention.

    Maybe in the future people will have to give up originality because the original concepts are no longer viable to manufacturer (TTL chips, or mirroring, etc).. but people aren't going to just abandon the games. The bigger the hobby gets... the better off we will be when the technology changes force adaptation.

    #163 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Pin to pin adapters is trivial... and with 'on demand' manufacturing now (and growing) your dooms day scenarios are far less likely in the future than they've been in the past.
    If the demand is there (and economically viable), when the interest/demand intersect... someone will put forth the effort. Be it hobbyist, or small business... necessity is the mother of invention.
    Maybe in the future people will have to give up originality because the original concepts are no longer viable to manufacturer (TTL chips, or mirroring, etc).. but people aren't going to just abandon the games. The bigger the hobby gets... the better off we will be when the technology changes force adaptation.

    Totally agree, things are getting easier to reproduce every day it seems. The keystone is "if there is demand". I can see that interest in a lot of these games will die off along with the people who loved them, but so be it, that is the way of the world.

    #164 2 years ago
    Quoted from Mfsrc791:

    If the demand is there the parts will be made. So the question is will the demand be there?

    Not necessarily and the demand already fully exists, let me explain.
    Not related to the whole "price debate" aspect, which I already discussed, but regarding electronics boards and components.
    The market in this respect is extremely young.

    It took over 10-15 years (starting in the late 90s) for pinball suppliers and manufacturers to provide replacement WPC, SS80, GTB System 1, Early Bally, and other mid level board set replacements. I give this time range because the first boards to be replaced were the GTB.
    Anyone collecting pinball machines in the 1990s was very wary and experienced in understanding the board pitfalls that are so quickly overlooked today.
    That is part of the reason there are so many hack jobs that repair experts will not touch.

    In that time starting in 2001, thousands of SS games were parted out for their board sets, because the boards were worth more than the games sometimes in excess of $1000 for complete used boards.

    Some boards to this day, have NEVER still have been reproduced and most likely never will be as the games will be parted out before the market development is made.
    The demand is high, but the boards never materialized.
    Why?
    Understand that some outdated components are just what was stated, they are obsolete and cannot be easily remade.
    You are not seeing a parts supplier do this, because it simply is not profitable right now for cost.
    Technology marches on, but that does not solve all old electronic designs that need replaced.

    You have working WPC 95 A/V boards (reproduction or original) selling between $500-1000 right NOW.
    Dealers are already doing "swaptronics" again with a vengeance to sell games that are profitable from the late model area, just like they did in the mid 2000s.
    Wait to see if $350 board is ever made, or just strip the board from another game and sell said game for $8000?
    Not much math required here.
    What happens to the other games?
    Parted out again.

    Unless a enthusiasts steps up to the plate and redesigns a board design for electronic components for example to use digital replacement sound calls for soundboards, you cannot easily reproduce the original IC chips.
    You are basically "emulating" the original board (with some improvements).
    The best example to date is the PinSound board.
    However, it is NOT compatible with WPC 95 games due to the combination DMD EPROM and display architecture.

    Most SS boards if not "roached" can be repaired, up to a certain point, but never forever.
    EMs never had this problem, and are the reason why so many survived when SS games did not.
    Many modern Sterns are already gone due to original WhiteStar system issues.
    The true area that kills EM games is the perception against SS games is the perception of intrinsic lack of value, not replacement parts.

    #165 2 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    The true area that kills EM games is the perception against SS games is the perception of intrinsic lack of value, not replacement parts.

    This is what I am saying, people who loved the EMs are fewer and farther between as time goes on.

    You are correct, of course, not everything can be reproduced, at least not readily. But those are the exceptions that prove the rule.

    ...okay, I don't actually know what that means, but always wanted to use it in a convo.

    #166 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Pin to pin adapters is trivial... and with 'on demand' manufacturing now (and growing) your dooms day scenarios are far less likely in the future than they've been in the past.
    If the demand is there (and economically viable), when the interest/demand intersect... someone will put forth the effort. Be it hobbyist, or small business... necessity is the mother of invention.
    Maybe in the future people will have to give up originality because the original concepts are no longer viable to manufacturer (TTL chips, or mirroring, etc).. but people aren't going to just abandon the games. The bigger the hobby gets... the better off we will be when the technology changes force adaptation.

    BSMT2000 Sound chip to date has never been remade. Data East sound boards do not exist. Pinsound is a replacement, but it doesn't work for Whitestar which right now relies on stern. Even then getting Whitestar boards (not whitestar modified which are not backwards compatible) is not happening. If you want a replacement whitestar cpu you have to get one off another game.

    Capcom made around 3500 games. Flipper parts have been unaivailable for 15 years. We are not talking game specific parts. Full flipper rebuilds do not exist. Flipper links and plungers are not the most difficult part to make, where are your suppliers?

    Ramps, the community begs for ramps and what do we have? Starship fantasy has been stagnant for ages. Freeplay40 stepped up and does a great job, but there is demand for dozens and dozens of titles.

    In essence, your argument does not hold water.

    #167 2 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    BSMT2000 Sound chip to date has never been remade. Data East sound boards do not exist. Pinsound is a replacement, but it doesn't work for Whitestar which right now relies on stern. Even then getting Whitestar boards (not whitestar modified which are not backwards compatible) is not happening. If you want a replacement whitestar cpu you have to get one off another game.
    Capcom made around 3500 games. Flipper parts have been unaivailable for 15 years. We are not talking game specific parts. Full flipper rebuilds do not exist. Flipper links and plungers are not the most difficult part to make, where are your suppliers?
    Ramps, the community begs for ramps and what do we have? Starship fantasy has been stagnant for ages. Freeplay40 stepped up and does a great job, but there is demand for dozens and dozens of titles.
    In essence, your argument does not hold water.

    Ramps are a good example.. several times people have stepped up and made ramps. Is the market fully satisfied?? No, and it never will be because there are a ton that simply aren't viable to tackle unless there are shortcuts (molds, or future manufacturing options) uncovered.

    Whitestar... there simply hasn't been enough time for demand to build up to make that viable to tackle. How many stern WS games are out there completely dead waiting for a PDB? The demand needs to build. These boards don't self-destruct and can be repaired.. and are still relatively young. The demand hasn't built up yet.

    Capcom? That's a niche problem... and will get solved eventually I'm sure. Or a better retrofit concept will come along.

    You mistake my comment to mean parts will be like your local Wegmans where you will be able to just drop by and pick up whatever you want for every possible game. 'Demand' does not mean simply 'someone wants one'... as I said "If the demand is there (and economically viable)"

    People are making flipper parts now.. maybe ask Rick why he hasn't tackled capcom flipper parts... since he's consolidated alot of what went to Australia and Illinois previously. My guess is they'd say the demand isn't there to support the parts run.

    Ramps... another expensive part to prep and run. Losing James L. and his efforts was a big loss. Hopefully PPS's acquisition of IPB will make it easier for the next guy to tackle the problem.

    We were in far worst shape 15 years ago... and the licensing issues have largely been solved now.. so now it's just about someone making a business of the need.

    #168 2 years ago

    For those that are interested, Christmas season 2016 saw some of the largest amount of sales of USED pinball games from dealers since the early 2000s. This includes mid-era EMs and wood rails. NIB game sales slightly dropped, as expected. EM collectors are growing again. This was quite an accomplishment for the market in terms of health, if you try and use forums such as PinSide as benchmark with postings, which simply is inaccurate. The only thing that drew first time buyers away from the EMs was the price. Classic superb (borderline CQ) examples of EM popular games are pricing out nearly as much mid level SS machines from the late 80s and early 90s. Easily in the $2K range, in "pinball mecha" regions such as the PNW.

    Keeping in mind that the majority of the cost was in labor for restoration, not the actual game itself that has already bottomed out in terms of market value between $350-1000. Dealers are not stupid either, they do their Mr. Pinball Price Guide homework. They have to make some type of profit, or they would never stay in business very long. It is hard to train techs to handle a dozen of machine types as well, not to even consider the stockage of parts required (or simply old games).

    When a first time buyer has the choice between a say a Lethal Weapon 3 with lights, sounds, and music and a Four Million B.C. with a single bell but has MB, they tend to lean towards flashy. They really do not know the difference between a 40+ year game, and game made in the last 15-20 years, nor do they really care. Theme is not the defining factor either, unless it is a game from a buyer's childhood they want to relive. It is hard to convince a buyer however that an LCD game is "better", unless they have already decided that for themselves.

    What some new buyers tend to overlook is gameplay on older games can be vastly superior to modern games, not necessarily in terms of features, but actual ability to provide long lasting play appeal and gameplay advancements. Collectors are a different barrel of monkeys when it comes to evaluating games not only on condition, but detailed aspects of the amusement devices regardless of age.
    Sometimes people buy games simply out of enjoyment for the art and design, not even gameplay.

    #169 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Ramps are a good example.. several times people have stepped up and made ramps. Is the market fully satisfied?? No, and it never will be because there are a ton that simply aren't viable to tackle unless there are shortcuts (molds, or future manufacturing options) uncovered.
    Whitestar... there simply hasn't been enough time for demand to build up to make that viable to tackle. How many stern WS games are out there completely dead waiting for a PDB? The demand needs to build. These boards don't self-destruct and can be repaired.. and are still relatively young. The demand hasn't built up yet.
    Capcom? That's a niche problem... and will get solved eventually I'm sure. Or a better retrofit concept will come along.
    You mistake my comment to mean parts will be like your local Wegmans where you will be able to just drop by and pick up whatever you want for every possible game. 'Demand' does not mean simply 'someone wants one'... as I said "If the demand is there (and economically viable)"
    People are making flipper parts now.. maybe ask Rick why he hasn't tackled capcom flipper parts... since he's consolidated alot of what went to Australia and Illinois previously. My guess is they'd say the demand isn't there to support the parts run.
    Ramps... another expensive part to prep and run. Losing James L. and his efforts was a big loss. Hopefully PPS's acquisition of IPB will make it easier for the next guy to tackle the problem.
    We were in far worst shape 15 years ago... and the licensing issues have largely been solved now.. so now it's just about someone making a business of the need.

    Sorry but what? Whitestar (not modified) is minimum of 14 -15 years old. Some of them are pushing 20, relatively young my ass.

    Capcom is a niche market. Yep, niche market where you have 15k games, 3.5-5k games (pm), 3k games (airborne), and then 1600ish games (breakshot). 3500+ with a need is a niche? Somehow 3500 isn't enough to qualify, but you can get CC parts with a mere 900 made.

    Again, your argument is not holding water so let's agree to disagree because frankly you are only going to see what you want.

    #170 2 years ago

    This is a fun debate^^^^
    Still dont know if its a good thing if dmd prices go down. Everyones current dmd collection loses value but then again you would be able to buy other dmds for cheaper.

    #171 2 years ago

    Historically, not counting some recent titles, aren't most pinball machines in decent condition worth more now than when they were sold NIB? I am intentionally not factoring in inflation in this question.

    #172 2 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    Never understood this logic. There is massive demand for hundreds of repo parts, that have never been remade. Just because there is demand does not mean someone steps in to fill it.

    Figuring out how to adapt a surface mount chip to a ttl socket is not *easy*. It requires an adapter to be made which is beyond hobbyists. As it is most hobbyists run from surface mount work so good luck on getting them to up their game.

    I agree, making the adapter would not be the easy part. However, the need to make adapters in the future is what could lead to them becoming readily available. A perfect example of a new opportunity opening up for someone willing to take on the project.

    If most hobbyists run from surface mount work now thats their own problem. If surface mount becomes more of the norm, they will either step up their game as I said, or pay others who have. I've worked with a lot of surface mount stuff in my time, its really not bad at all. Once you get into BGA stuff it's quite a bit trickier, but with standard surface mount stuff its not that big of a deal.

    I know you are trying to make a counterpoint to my point but in my opinion you are just furthering the point I was trying to make. When changes happen, markets will adapt. It doesn't matter if you're talking automation at a factory, or pinball machines. Times change, techniques change, and when change happens, it can open up new possibilities that weren't there before.

    #173 2 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    Historically, not counting some recent titles, aren't most pinball machines in decent condition worth more now than when they were sold NIB? I am intentionally not factoring in inflation in this question.

    No.
    This is another hobby fantasy tale, proprogated from multiple sources.
    If this was the case every single pinball machine made before 1980 would be selling for 4-5x their current sale values.

    All machines excluding a few title anomalies, samples or prototypes reach a "flatline collector value" dependent on game system which decreases over time from their original NIB values. After that point they increase due to economy inflation. What throws monkey wrenches in certain periods are when games become more popular due to increases in collectibility, but it remains an ebb and flow process.

    #174 2 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    No.
    This is another hobby fantasy tale, proprogated from multiple sources.
    If this was the case every single pinball machine made before 1980 would be selling for 4-5x their current sale values.
    All machines excluding a few title anomalies, samples or prototypes reach a "flatline collector value" dependent on game system which decreases over time from their original NIB values. After that point they increase due to economy inflation. What throws monkey wrenches in certain periods are when games become more popular due to increases in collectibility, but it remains an ebb and flow process.

    I said I was not factoring in inflation. Aren't most Bally/williams SS games worth more now than the original price? If I put in $5000 on a NIB game and sell it 15 years later for $5000 I would be ecstatic. All of that time enjoying the game is worth the inflation losses.

    I do understand that demand is a huge factor and that can collapse very quickly ala the baseball card market in the early 90s.

    #175 2 years ago

    Pinball for me is at least partly a trip through nostalgia....

    so I think all of these great dmd games are going to hold up just fine - for me at least.

    I like the new stuff too.. but doesn't VHS-ify anything in my view. There are places for great games in my game room whether they have reels, dmd, color dmd or LCDs

    #176 2 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    I said I was not factoring in inflation. Aren't most Bally/williams SS games worth more now than the original price? If I put in $5000 on a NIB game and sell it 15 years later for $5000 I would be ecstatic. All of that time enjoying the game is worth the inflation losses.
    I do understand that demand is a huge factor and that can collapse very quickly ala the baseball card market in the early 90s.

    It simply does not work that way.

    It takes decades for a game to reach its original NIB price. 15 years is normally just not enough time, routed or home use. In many cases games from the 1970s and 80s, are finally surpassing their NIB cost for the first time in 30-45 years. That is older that most of the active people on these forums.

    There are only for example a handful of games made by Stern since 2001 that equal or exceed their NIB value, once you subtract the economy and temporary artificial inflation considerations which are not real sale values. Even games made from 2010 onwards which some more anomalies exist, did not hold. The games that have held are TSPP, LOTR, SM, and TRON. RBION actually has been on the rise. Even the LEs and SEs have been dropping, and for good reason. $15K for a HUO AC/DC Luci? Wake up sellers, you are smoking your own crack product. You are not going to see an Elvis sell for $3500, unless it sat in owner's house since 2004, and that was a "classic" theme as well, or there was a new buyer dork on Ebay. Dealers will pull buyers legs. You have the power, not them, even in a seller's market.

    Any experienced collector differentiates from "perceived" versus "actual" values.
    Mostly out of game condition.
    Title is not defining factor, unless prototype or truly rare.

    "Rare games do not define game value exclusively, except to those that are uniformed."
    - TBK

    This is currently one of the biggest mistakes new collectors are making. The "flipping power" concept simply does not hold, if an owner thinks they can sell a game they just bought for $1-3K more, days or weeks later. When the used market tide turns, people are left stuck with games they cannot sell, unless they start to be realistic. This includes games that are modded out the ying-yang, and some that look truly horrible that need to be stripped of aftermarket garbage. Market saturation of title either through production, home sales, operators, or all can cause severe decreases as well. Stern is doing this with MET right now to make a profit based on market interest, which means it will end up hovering in the same price range as SM in a few more years. You are not going to see BM66 SLE being sold on the market for $30K in two years (equivalent to some of the same percentages as long priced games), as the market cannot accept such terms.

    However, the flipside is true with new buyers as well who almost ALWAYS overpay for their first machine and have problems, unless they ask for assistance. This why I always try to head this mistake off at the pass. This leads to market inflation which new sellers "feed the hogpen". It never ends well in the long run for market health.

    If people are paying attention, this is already occurring again. The signs exist. This is not "seasonal", it is visible slowdown.

    This is important, readers. I calculate pinflation independently beyond "flatline collector value". The "market crash" equivalency does effect the ability for games to "bounce back". This has really hit home in the past. People simply should never speculate pinball values, as they are highly unreliable.

    There is no doubt if you hold onto a game for your entire lifetime and take care of it, it will retain its value, but 99% of people that own pinball machines are not collectors. That is not going to change overnight even though pinball buyers have increased an average of 25-30% every year since 2010. Huge jump compared to the 2000s.

    The best example I can personally share is probably my TZ that was bought overstock in 1994. Yes, it has been well cared for overall and yes, it is probably worth 5x the price I paid for the game ($2400), but that took 23 years of waiting. It is is also an exception to the rules, because of its "gotta have" popularity in the late 90s and early 00s by collectors (ie the "cookie cutter collection", most of these owners BTW are LONG GONE now and sold out), and its timeless theme that I knew it would hold from the first day I unboxed another earlier game directly on location (regardless of initial design problems with the assemblies). I have done much better returns on my money in 23 years in buying gold than holding onto a pinball machine. I mean really, think about it, is this even logical?

    Values are simply not guaranteed, as I could remit based on multiple market stalls.
    I will say it again, stay away from the concept of increasing values of pinball machines, as people tend to be disappointed when they realize their banks of toys are not worth what they paid for them initially.
    The same type of individuals are the ones who buy new games NIB and stick them in corners for years, afraid to open them up and play the machines.

    My best advice if you are interested in the market, and you do not want to expend time and resources is BUY the Mr. Pinball Price Guide.
    It is accurate, useful, and informative at determining prices, trends, and production numbers of all the price guides available.
    It may lag later in a fiscal year, but that happens with any price guide.

    #177 2 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    It simply does not work that way.
    It takes decades for a game to reach its original NIB price. 15 years is normally just not enough time, routed or home use. In many cases games from the 1970s and 80s, are finally surpassing their NIB cost for the first time in 30-45 years. That is older that most of the active people on these forums.
    There are only for example a handful of games made by Stern since 2001 that equal or exceed their NIB value, once you subtract the economy and temporary artificial inflation considerations which are not real sale values. Even games made from 2010 onwards which some more anomalies exist, did not hold. The games that have held are TSPP, LOTR, SM, and TRON. RBION actually has been on the rise. Even the LEs and SEs have been dropping, and for good reason. $15K for a HUO AC/DC Luci? Wake up sellers, you are smoking your own crack product. You are not going to see an Elvis sell for $3500, unless it sat in owner's house since 2004, and that was a "classic" theme as well, or there was a new buyer dork on Ebay. Dealers will pull buyers legs. You have the power, not them, even in a seller's market.
    Any experienced collector differentiates from "perceived" versus "actual" values.
    Mostly out of game condition.
    Title is not defining factor, unless prototype or truly rare.
    "Rare games do not define game value exclusively, except to those that are uniformed."
    - TBK
    This is currently one of the biggest mistakes new collectors are making. The "flipping power" concept simply does not hold, if an owner thinks they can sell a game they just bought for $1-3K more, days or weeks later. When the used market tide turns, people are left stuck with games they cannot sell, unless they start to be realistic. This includes games that are modded out the ying-yang, and some that look truly horrible that need to be stripped of aftermarket garbage. Market saturation of title either through production, home sales, operators, or all can cause severe decreases as well. Stern is doing this with MET right now to make a profit based on market interest, which means it will end up hovering in the same price range as SM in a few more years. You are not going to see BM66 SLE being sold on the market for $30K in two years (equivalent to some of the same percentages as long priced games), as the market cannot accept such terms.
    However, the flipside is true with new buyers as well who almost ALWAYS overpay for their first machine and have problems, unless they ask for assistance. This why I always try to head this mistake off at the pass. This leads to market inflation which new sellers "feed the hogpen". It never ends well in the long run for market health.
    If people are paying attention, this is already occurring again. The signs exist. This is not "seasonal", it is visible slowdown.
    This is important, readers. I calculate pinflation independently beyond "flatline collector value". The "market crash" equivalency does effect the ability for games to "bounce back". This has really hit home in the past. People simply should never speculate pinball values, as they are highly unreliable.
    There is no doubt if you hold onto a game for your entire lifetime and take care of it, it will retain its value, but 99% of people that own pinball machines are not collectors. That is not going to change overnight even though pinball buyers have increased an average of 25-30% every year since 2010. Huge jump compared to the 2000s.
    The best example I can personally share is probably my TZ that was bought overstock in 1994. Yes, it has been well cared for overall and yes, it is probably worth 5x the price I paid for the game ($2400), but that took 23 years of waiting. It is is also an exception to the rules, because of its "gotta have" popularity in the late 90s and early 00s by collectors (ie the "cookie cutter collection", most of these owners BTW are LONG GONE now and sold out), and its timeless theme that I knew it would hold from the first day I unboxed another earlier game directly on location (regardless of initial design problems with the assemblies). I have done much better returns on my money in 23 years in buying gold than holding onto a pinball machine. I mean really, think about it, is this even logical?
    Values are simply not guaranteed, as I could remit based on multiple market stalls.
    I will say it again, stay away from the concept of increasing values of pinball machines, as people tend to be disappointed when they realize their banks of toys are not worth what they paid for them initially.
    The same type of individuals are the ones who buy new games NIB and stick them in corners for years, afraid to open them up and play the machines.
    My best advice if you are interested in the market, and you do not want to expend time and resources is BUY the Mr. Pinball Price Guide.
    It is accurate, useful, and informative at determining prices, trends, and production numbers of all the price guides available.
    It may lag later in a fiscal year, but that happens with any price guide.

    Holy crap! TLDR.

    That is true with most of your posts in this thread.

    #178 2 years ago

    Adding game modes is actually what pushed SS and EMs into the dark ages rather than the display. An LCD is little more than a cosmetic upgrade over DMD... unless we are talking about video modes.

    #179 2 years ago
    Quoted from thedarkknight77:

    It's over my friends, your DMD games just became dated and devalued. Be careful how much you spend on those color DMD's because they are ancient. After seeing Batman66 and Aerosmith, I will not be paying a lot for DMD titles.....No friggin way!

    I figured they were dated for years now, i rarely look at the dmd anyway and could care less about the new screen.

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