(Topic ID: 177690)

DMD's just became the new VHS


By thedarkknight77

2 years ago



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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by crlush
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    There are 179 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 4.
    #101 2 years ago
    Quoted from Otaku:

    Funhouse, Earthshaker, and Whirlwind bring the moolah in any condition.

    You seriously haven't realized that it's just the factories continuously raising the prices and that the pinball sheep keep buying them? Considering how long a "I'M NOT BUYING STERN GAMES ANYMORE - HELP STOP THE MADNESS - SAY NO TO STERN'S PRICES" thread goes on 'round here, you'd think everybody would be on the same page.
    If some guy (meaning a ton of DMD game pinsiders) pays $10,000 for a game brand new, he's obviously not going to sell it for $5,000 (or 6, 7, or 8k) only three years later. Of course the 90's DMD games don't cost as much, they've had a lot longer to depreciate in value, and the only reason the value gap was so close to begin with is because they made a rebound/comeback. As now stated, the bigger thing is probably how WELL the 90's games have held value compared (or ABOVE) to either original price point. You should be very proud of that value gap being so small, not chastising it for growing larger apart. (especially if the pinball big wigs blatantly keep adding hundreds or even thousands to new games prices, it's gonna grow apart regardless of how great DMD games are)
    Hell, even if you locked each game at MSRP value, with how swindled people are getting on prices these days, you'd still probably be paying a ton more as is.

    Funhouse seems to b the most collectible by far of the system 11s but it is really a wpc alphanumeric (i just paid big money for one actually ) then u have ma, ww, eatpm, bop, diner, taxi, sof, br and bad cats which are 1750-3500 then you have the rest thst fall below that price point in most cases. I love the gameplay of them and cld careless about no dmd which y i just bought a one . All pinball is good and the display sldnt make a difference .

    #102 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Back to the premise: are the Dmd era pins obsolete because Stern changed the Dmd to a LCD?

    That's not the premise of the thread. "Obsolete" is the wrong term, "dated and devalued" of course means something totally different, and people have overblown the idea into hysteria once again.

    Nobody is saying you should throw your Dmd pins in the trash can.

    #103 2 years ago
    Quoted from PW79:

    I look forward to it
    But moving ahead I dont think Color DMD's are enough to make me buy obsolete DMD era games.

    So your TSPP, FGY, and LOTR are now "obsolete" and less fun because Stern released 2 games with LCD score displays? Do you think B66 and Aerosmith will be actual better games than those?

    #104 2 years ago
    Quoted from Otaku:

    I know you older generational folks don't resonate much with the Game Boy, but even Nintendo's got it right (bigger screen is better), and it's actually really good 3D too!

    I play my *new* 3DS XL every day, Mr. Judgeypants. ...and I still enjoy my Gameboy Advance!

    Once again you miss the point - in pinball, it's NOT about the screen. It's about the game. Better design/rules/toys/features/sound happened to come along with the Dmd screen. The screen didn't define the games. Now we have a new screen but the games and tech remain largely the same.

    #105 2 years ago
    Quoted from Otaku:

    Funhouse, Earthshaker, and Whirlwind bring the moolah in any condition.

    You seriously haven't realized that it's just the factories continuously raising the prices and that the pinball sheep keep buying them

    I think the price increase started when buyers began overpaying for used 90's B/W games, plus others making money flipping NIB games.

    Manufacturers just followed the lead. Blame the buyers.

    If the prices were really too high, buyers wouldn't pay them. Apparently, that's not the case yet.

    The games you listed don't bring in more money in any condition than a good DMD.

    #106 2 years ago
    Quoted from RTS:

    If the prices were really too high, buyers wouldn't pay them. Apparently, that's not the case yet.

    "Too much" is based on perception, that's the problem. $8,000 (at least to me and a lot of others), is a hell of a ton of money. My grandma complains when I spend my own $300 on a game. I've found, even in myself, when you enter the hobby the personal value of the dollar goes waaaaay down.

    A gambler never thinks the thousands upon thousands of dollars on a slot machine is "too much". Obviously they're entirely different situations and I am implying nothing there, just a reference. An alcohol thinks he's not drinking too much. A hoarder thinks he doesn't have too much stuff.

    I am positive there are at least 10 people in this community that would give Gary Stern $15,000. And as we progress, I would not be surprised if that becomes the norm, as unfortunate as that is.

    Quoted from RTS:

    The games you listed don't bring in more money in any condition than a good DMD.

    Yep, didn't imply that (or mean to), what I meant is that they don't bring in much less either.

    #107 2 years ago
    Quoted from bigd1979:

    Funhouse seems to b the most collectible by far of the system 11s but it is really a wpc alphanumeric (i just paid big money for one actually ) then u have ma, ww, eatpm, bop, diner, taxi, sof, br and bad cats which are 1750-3500 then you have the rest thst fall below that price point in most cases. I love the gameplay of them and cld careless about no dmd which y i just bought a one . All pinball is good and the display sldnt make a difference .

    I disagree. Banzai run commands way more than FH does. And Funhouse is not a system 11 in any way shape or form. Same with BOP. They are WPC games. Display does not determine the class they are in. In all tense and purposes, they are classified as WPC games.

    #108 2 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    I disagree. Banzai run commands way more than FH does. And Funhouse is not a system 11 in any way shape or form. Same with BOP. They are WPC games. Display does not determine the class they are in. In all tense and purposes, they are classified as WPC games.

    Not sure about way more than fh but some in most cases . U rarely see br for sale so not real sure on pricing. Last few i remember were around 3500-4500. I said fh was a wpc alphanumeric ...forgot bop used it also. I kinda count them as the in betweens lol ..its to bad the dmd board wasnt ready for fh and bop.... regardless fh is a really awesome pin with great theme and toy.

    #109 2 years ago

    I agree , I love FH. but Banzai run goes for about double of what FH's do. But in all fairness. they made a shitload of FH's. If FH had the production numbers BR had...the price would be through the roof.

    #110 2 years ago

    That's ok, my Fireball has already outlived many DMD "modern" new Stern games from the 2000s that ended up in landfills. Clearly the sturdy construction methods developed by Bally were in complete error.

    #111 2 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    I agree , I love FH. but Banzai run goes for about double of what FH's do. But in all fairness. they made a shitload of FH's. If FH had the production numbers BR had...the price would be through the roof.

    Really br sells for 6-8k.? I know of quite a few nice funhouses that sold for 3500-4500 rather quickly. I also just bought one for considerably more than that ....however its a very nice restored one with nice upgrades. You sld hear some the offers ive had for it allready and its not for sale ...i just posted a few pics of it lol. Br is ok but i wldnt own it due to theme and gameplay but its pretty neat and very different for sure.

    #112 2 years ago

    A nice one will bring in 7-8k fairly easy. I seen a HUO one go for 10k before. Is it worth it? Not at all. I think the rules are bland and the upper playfield isn't as fun as it looks.

    #113 2 years ago

    Pinside has fh and br prices pretty close together but like u said not much to go off of for br. Theres one for sale at 4500 in the marketplace tho. Seems its not a very desirable pin even know it is on the rarer side but the popularity of fh keeps it going up it seems .

    #114 2 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    A nice one will bring in 7-8k fairly easy. I seen a HUO one go for 10k before. Is it worth it? Not at all. I think the rules are bland and the upper playfield isn't as fun as it looks.

    I bet some of the protos with xr-7 playfield (think that's what it was called) wld go for a good bit since they are super rare. Believe it was a early type of diamond coat...

    #115 2 years ago

    yes, the XR-7 clear holds up very well. I had a jokerz with that and the playfield looked like new.

    #116 2 years ago

    I'm kind of glad funhouse has an alphanumeric display. It keeps the player's focus on the playfield and towards Rudy.

    It would be interesting what they would come up with for a sequel.

    #117 2 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    yes, the XR-7 clear holds up very well. I had a jokerz with that and the playfield looked like new.

    O nice i didnt know there were others...

    #118 2 years ago

    it was nice stuff. But they ended up going with Diamondplate, probably due to cost.

    #119 2 years ago
    Quoted from dmbjunky:

    I'm kind of glad funhouse has an alphanumeric display. It keeps the player's focus on the playfield and towards Rudy.
    It would be interesting what they would come up with for a sequel.

    Yea i get that but man i cld only imagine what great animations they cld have had for fh...

    #120 2 years ago

    Games like AFM are as much or more fun than most games post 2000 ( my opinion ) and whilst the dots are fun I can also only imagine a HD screen with beautiful animations.

    And aesthetically same size screen as the DMD as the WPC games look so good.

    Never going to happen of course.

    So far none of the LCD games have made me want to buy them so whilst the screens are cool, if the gameplay doesn't click, it's kind of irrelevant.

    #121 2 years ago
    Quoted from hawkeyexx:

    I love my classic pins! I don't need a DMD screen to watch while I'm playing pinball

    DMD=Dot Matrix Distraction.

    #122 2 years ago

    I feel like I just had to make a choice.

    Brand new, delivered to my door Aerosmith with kick ass LCD @ 5200

    (Or)

    A used LOTR for 5k that has had 4 owners and is 10 years old. I also had to give a buddy $40 to help out with his SUV.

    Anyway, it was a tough choice when comparing the two, but I picked LOTR and have no regrets. Game is awesome and I won't have to hope Aerosmith turns out to be gold. I already have a winner sitting in my lineup right now and it's proven.

    #123 2 years ago

    Shit games will always go down in value faster than great games, but what I am suggesting is more of a law of averages view. As new LCD games come out, there will be a mix of "amazing" and "shit show" titles. The new "shit show" will put pressure on the old "shit show" and the same will happen with the amazing games. Look, if a title like Star Wars is incredible, many are not going to be paying a premium for an old DMD LE or Premium that most have owned and played already, no f'ing way......You rich bastards can take your damn over priced TWD, Mustang, WWE, Xmen, GB, Trek and Kiss LE and shove it....lol...Ha! (Relax I am joking). In 6 years, people will be asking, "WTF is TWD?" If the average collection size is 4 pins, choices will have to be made. The end result will be DMD games being sold for less. We obviously don't go to zero, but maybe we revert back to pricing of a few years ago, i.e used HUO with mods selling for roughly: LE $6700, Premium $5600 and Pro $4000.

    #124 2 years ago
    Quoted from Toasterdog:

    I feel like I just had to make a choice.
    Brand new, delivered to my door Aerosmith with kick ass LCD @ 5200
    (Or)
    A used LOTR for 5k that has had 4 owners and is 10 years old. I also had to give a buddy $40 to help out with his SUV.
    Anyway, it was a tough choice when comparing the two, but I picked LOTR and have no regrets. Game is awesome and I won't have to hope Aerosmith turns out to be gold. I already have a winner sitting in my lineup right now and it's proven.

    You made a great choice.....LOTR is in my opinion one if the greatest games ever produced. At $5000, it's a value no matter what the display is.

    #125 2 years ago

    Here's a Banzai Run with XR7 playfield in LA priced at $8900. Due to scarcity, I don't think these old DMD games in collector condition will depreciate significantly. Time will tell...

    losangeles.craigslist.org link

    #126 2 years ago
    Quoted from Toasterdog:

    I feel like I just had to make a choice.
    Brand new, delivered to my door Aerosmith with kick ass LCD @ 5200
    (Or)
    A used LOTR for 5k that has had 4 owners and is 10 years old. I also had to give a buddy $40 to help out with his SUV.
    Anyway, it was a tough choice

    Doesn't sound like a tough choice to me. LOTFnR all day.

    #127 2 years ago
    Quoted from thedarkknight77:

    Shit games will always go down in value faster than great games, but what I am suggesting is more of a law of averages view. As new LCD games come out, there will be a mix of "amazing" and "shit show" titles. The new "shit show" will put pressure on the old "shit show" and the same will happen with the amazing games. Look, if a title like Star Wars is incredible, many are not going to be paying a premium for an old DMD LE or Premium that most have owned and played already, no f'ing way......You rich bastards can take your damn over priced TWD, Mustang, WWE, Xmen, GB, Trek and Kiss LE and shove it....lol...Ha! (Relax I am joking). In 6 years, people will be asking, "WTF is TWD?" If the average collection size is 4 pins, choices will have to be made. The end result will be DMD games being sold for less. We obviously don't go to zero, but maybe we revert back to pricing of a few years ago, i.e used HUO with mods selling for roughly: LE $6700, Premium $5600 and Pro $4000.

    Straight forward Nick. Love it! Finally got myself a beautiful AC/DC premium. Awesome game. Even with all of this new technology and screens I'm not sure how it will effect my choices. I love pinball but kinda suck at it so I don't look at the screen too often anyway. And beutiful use of the term "shit show"

    #128 2 years ago

    The display adds some bling, and does look nice for sure, however its just a display, if the game blows thats attached to it, an lcd isnt saving it.

    Perfect example above, from toasterdog, could have bough an areosmith, but its not going to play like and be the amazing journey that lotr is.

    Some guys do collect just for art purposes or to show off, and dont really play much so for them this is a move forward however for actual players, its nice for sure, but not a gamechanger.

    #129 2 years ago

    I think it is a total game changer.

    It was a separator for JJP

    While it won't save a bad game. I'll take an LCD with any good pin 100% all day

    My TWD and GB come to mind

    #130 2 years ago
    Quoted from bigd1979:

    Yea i get that but man i cld only imagine what great animations they cld have had for fh...

    I don't think a DMD at that time would have been very good. I imagine it would have looked like Hurricane or TAF. The animations for those games did the job but were crude. It wasn't till a little later when they started to get good with DMD animations. BSD and TZ are really good.

    I wonder if we'll have to wait a few years till Stern gets good with the LCD. Thinking about that makes WOZ more impressive being the first effort from a new company.

    #131 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    So your TSPP, FGY, and LOTR are now "obsolete" and less fun because Stern released 2 games with LCD score displays? Do you think B66 and Aerosmith will be actual better games than those?

    Yes my current DMD games are obsolete (IMO) but it's sure not easy to concisely explain where I'm at philosophically right now lol

    Taking a color DMD out of TSPP makes it less fun IMO so if an equally fun game was offered in LCD then I'd choose LCD.

    Will I keep my DMD games? Maybe. I dont know. 3 out of my 4 have sentimental value so its not easy to answer (they were absolute favorites of my best friend who passed)

    Will I seek DMD games moving forward? Fuck naw, its the LCD era! Keep the old shit, I want bright & shiny!!

    I *might* pick up a used DMD to temporarily fill a void until an interesting LCD is released but I doubt it.

    Again this is not easy to explain. It's sorta like you asking me why I'd stop buying new Blu-ray titles in favor of new 4K titles even tho Big Trouble in little China is a great Movie on DVD (or VHS for this thread sake haha)

    Hell no to Batman 66. Pass on Aerosmith unless it ends up bad ass

    #132 2 years ago
    Quoted from PW79:

    Again this is not easy to explain. It's sorta like you asking me why I'd stop buying new Blu-ray titles in favor of new 4K titles even tho Big Trouble in little China is a great Movie on DVD (or VHS for this thread sake haha)

    I don't think we should compare pinball to home video versions of movies. VHS was always a terrible way to view movies. Technology keeps getting better to letting us enjoy a film like experience at home.

    It'd be one thing if Stsrn started releasing LCD improved editions of LOTR and TSPP...but they're not. So we can only judge a game on what it is. I went and played Batman 66 today, and while the display was neat - I came home and played a few 90's games that had much better gameplay and mechanical features. If I replace my old games with a new LCD game - it'll be because the game itself is amazing.

    #133 2 years ago

    We agree more than you realize. In fact your last sentence is exactly where I'm at.

    I'm awaiting the next masterpiece... in LCD. I wont dump a DMD gem for an LCD turd but I'm also not buying any more DMD games.

    #134 2 years ago
    Quoted from PW79:

    Heck after playing one of my color DMD games I am always disappointed in my TWD DMD appearance.

    I put a color dmd in my TWD and run it in grey upscale, and it looks like a black & white zombie movie (Night of the Living Dead style). Works really well:

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/walking-dead-colordmd-bw-video

    #135 2 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    yes, the XR-7 clear holds up very well. I had a jokerz with that and the playfield looked like new.

    Is there a way to know if the play field is XR-7? Did they change to diamond plate on BR?

    #136 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    I don't think we should compare pinball to home video versions of movies. VHS was always a terrible way to view movies. Technology keeps getting better to letting us enjoy a film like experience at home.
    It'd be one thing if Stsrn started releasing LCD improved editions of LOTR and TSPP...but they're not. So we can only judge a game on what it is. I went and played Batman 66 today, and while the display was neat - I came home and played a few 90's games that had much better gameplay and mechanical features. If I replace my old games with a new LCD game - it'll be because the game itself is amazing.

    Agree. Gameplay has to be there and then LCD is the icing on the cake.

    Batman 66 looks great but it could turn into boring man 66 judging by the early reviews. It won't of course because they put Lyman on it.

    Have to say if Lyman had been put on AS would have been very tempted.

    As it is both games probably a pass unless code on AS turns out to be awesome.

    #137 2 years ago
    Quoted from Bugsy:

    LCD screens have been out since at least 2013 with the release of WOZ. You're just now saying no to DMD? It's 2017, almost 4 years later, where have you been?
    When the LCD screen came out on WOZ, I thought the display and animation was awesome and am wondering why it took so long to now get Stern to transfer over to it.

    Stern knew the pro was much less money so that was a different market they had to themselves. And because JJP had only one or two games either available or "shortly available " there wasn't a desperate need to move quickly with the premiums/LE's. Now they have JJP and Heighway and can give all the games LCD together.

    #138 2 years ago

    Batman 66 is a ton of fun and shoots great just needs LYMANs mojo on it and it will be great; turntable is probably the most advanced toy ever on a game too

    #139 2 years ago
    Quoted from thedarkknight77:

    Honestly, I am not trolling, I think the new LCD looks amazing and will put serious pricing pressure on high priced LE and premium DMD games.

    Agreed. Technology is advancing. Stuff becomes obsolete. It is just the way it is.

    #140 2 years ago
    Quoted from bigd1979:

    Really br sells for 6-8k.? I know of quite a few nice funhouses that sold for 3500-4500 rather quickly. I also just bought one for considerably more than that ....however its a very nice restored one with nice upgrades. You sld hear some the offers ive had for it allready and its not for sale ...i just posted a few pics of it lol. Br is ok but i wldnt own it due to theme and gameplay but its pretty neat and very different for sure.

    Not really. I seriously looked at buying one before I got mystery castle.

    Typical routed one 3200-3500. Once you get into restored 4500-5k. There have been a couple self restores using big name pf restorers that 5k was about tops. Its a neat game, but 6-8k, maybe for hep. XR7 ones are worth more, but have not seen them hit 6k and they tend to be restored anyways.

    #141 2 years ago

    Some restored EM titles are still bringing in $3k-$5K to the right collector. Same goes for early SS. Look at Fathom, Star Gazer, Quicksilver and Cheetah prices for reference.

    Quoted from RTS:

    The older games will become dated in time, and command less money.
    It ain't gonna happen overnight, and it ain't gonna be $1000 MM or $900 TZ. Making up those prices doesn't change what will happen.
    Look at bagatelles, bingo, wood rails and EM's. They were all cutting edge and desirable once.

    #142 2 years ago
    Quoted from DRDAVE:

    Some restored EM titles are still bringing in $3k-$5K to the right collector. Same goes for early SS. Look at Fathom, Star Gazer, Quicksilver and Cheetah prices for reference.

    True.

    And some pre 1955 woodrails are still selling for $5000 plus. Glamor 1950 sold for $15000 plus last year.

    Why? Because they are truly rare, pieces of art and most have great rulesets and are fun to play.

    #143 2 years ago
    Quoted from LitzDoc:

    Agreed. Technology is advancing. Stuff becomes obsolete. It is just the way it is.

    Here's the thing with pinball though - pinball itself has been "obsolete" forever. Its old timey retro factor is part of its appeal. When people play and enjoy pinball, they're not thinking about technology like they would with VHS vs. DVD vs. Blu-Ray or flip phone vs. smart phone ....they're just thinking about the gameplay & experience. When it comes to games...fun is fun. Fun doesn't become obsolete like tech that is more about function. For example, there's a reason people still love retro video games ...Super Mario Bros. maybe "technologically obsolete", but as a GAME, it's still fun as hell and people still love playing it. Tech be damned, fun is fun.

    #144 2 years ago

    Comparing DMD vs LCD pinball machines like VHS vs Blu Ray is a horrible comparison anyway. In my opinion, pinball machines are more like cars. For example, you could go to a dealer and buy a brand new Mustang right off the lot with GPS, Bluetooth, LCD lights and all sorts of modern electronics. That hasn't caused the price of a classic Mustang to plumit over the years, the price of a classic Mustang still has slowly climbed over the years.

    So the thought that the price of DMD pins are going to plumit as they are "obsolete" because new, more advanced, machines are being made just won't happen. If anything, it will help maintain the prices of the overall market.

    #145 2 years ago

    I'm most curious about what this will do to the AFMr pricing. While it is an LCD display, factory dots is what is there. With Stern being in the LCD era finally, I really want to know what the remakes will be priced at.

    #146 2 years ago
    Quoted from desertT1:

    I'm most curious about what this will do to the AFMr pricing. While it is an LCD display, factory dots is what is there. With Stern being in the LCD era finally, I really want to know what the remakes will be priced at.

    Maybe they'll come straight from the factory with the color ROM installed probably with a menu option to change back into original dots. That would be cool.

    #147 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Here's the thing with pinball though - pinball itself has been "obsolete" forever.

    Agreed. Probably thousands of examples--oil painting. Been around since the 1500s. Obsolete? Maybe. But people keep doing it because they enjoy it.

    it's still fun as hell

    Yep.

    As long as the tech doesn't become the focus IMO and it's always on the game, then the tech is welcome. I think many modern video games and even 3D CGI movies got this wrong... preferring to showcase tech over gameplay (or story).

    #148 2 years ago
    Quoted from chadderack:

    As long as the tech doesn't become the focus IMO and it's always on the game, then the tech is welcome. I think many modern video games and even 3D CGI movies got this wrong... preferring to showcase tech over gameplay (or story).

    You nailed it. Reminds me of early DS games that tacked on unhandy touch screen controls to show off the new tech.

    I kind of feel that's what's wrong with Dialed In. The phone controls should have been a neat addition but it feels like they based the theme on it. If those controls would have been on TH, we would be saying how cool and innovative JJP is. Instead it's kind of a joke on a great playing game because of the theme.

    #149 2 years ago
    Quoted from dmbjunky:

    I'm kind of glad funhouse has an alphanumeric display. It keeps the player's focus on the playfield and towards Rudy.
    It would be interesting what they would come up with for a sequel.

    Maybe Rudy's head could turn to avoid mouth shots.

    #150 2 years ago

    I just wish Color DMD's were the new standard from pinball manufacturers, LCD backglass like WOZ is too much for me, it's impossible to follow while playing and over complicates things. If anything DMD's will continue to rise in value because of more nostalgia. Pin prices aren't going down folks, not gonna happen.

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