From what I have seen of Aerosmith the animation looks like early 2000's flash. It is pretty awful and already looks dated. WOZ and Hobbit are much better done, but I have a feeling that they are going to date themselves very quickly too.

DMD's and even alphanumeric displays do not seem to suffer from this because they are somewhat unique to pinball. I do think the industry should have innovated sooner, but in a different direction. A higher resolution (aka increase pixel density) color led dmd. Something along the lines of MMR's color update, but with leds. If they stuck to 16 bit or even 32 bit animations it would have modernized the machines, but give them a unique feel. As it stands, Stern's latest already feels 10 years old and its not even out.

I think DMD's are more accurately compared with 8 bit graphics in video games. There's still a place for those despite the flashier graphics of newer games.

I never really wanted dots to disappear but just wanted them in color straight from the manufacture. It will be neat in a few years when someone revisits dot matrix graphics for a game like Breakshot did with referencing EMs. Maybe someone will make a DMD filter in their software you turn off and on.

I think the only truly "obsolete" games are woodrails. The manual ball lift is just one step too far for people to figure out. Everything else after that, most people can play without being pinheads.

You know they only stopped making VHS tapes last year

If DMD is VHS then what is the pinball equivalent to CED?

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Gottlieb's VFD.

I'm actually a little sad to see DMDs go. I'd argue that the creation of cool and interesting animations on something with the inherent limitations of a monochrome DMD is a unique art form in and of itself! It requires a specialized skill set and I imagine is more difficult than creating content for a high-res color display.

Also, in a world where just about every modern electrically-powered device now features a color LCD screen, flaming red LEDs add a little visual variety!

Really though, the actual PINBALL action is all under the glass and that's 99% of what truly counts anyway.

That would make EM's , Atari "Pong".

DMD titles dated over LCD?
No way.
Must have to be on LSD.

I love DMD titles! I would chose one over BM66 junk and Aerosmith any day.

This is not surprising. Same thing happened to chin beards.
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"DMD's just became the new VHS", they said the same when Pinball 2000 came out and look what happened with that.

Yep, when fuel injection came out the value of all these classic muscle cars just went to shit

You clearly don't understand why the "DMD era" is popular.....here's a hint: It's NOT because of the DMD!!!!

That era of games brought us designs, ramps, toys, features, music, voices, humor, themes, light shows, and great rules that had never been seen before. The score display was irrelevant to those games being awesome. Same goes today. WOZ has been out for years...it has a bigger display that has nicer graphics and animation than what we've seen Stern do so far. Has that impacted older games? No. Why? What's under the glass still holds up and in most cases is superior to what is coming out now.

Alpha Numeric > DMD > LCD

LCD screens have been out since at least 2013 with the release of WOZ. You're just now saying no to DMD? It's 2017, almost 4 years later, where have you been?

When the LCD screen came out on WOZ, I thought the display and animation was awesome and am wondering why it took so long to now get Stern to transfer over to it.

You mean, where has Stern been?

After some thought I don't think the premise of this thread holds up. When VHS was replaced by DVDs, and BluRay, and DVRs, that increased the resolution of the primary display medium, which is the product. However pinball is on the playfield, so, for example, when I play Centaur, I don't miss a DMD or LCD display at all. If someone added one with scores in a pretty font, video clips and animations it would be pleasing but doesn't improve game play at all. A pinball display is equivalent to a mod like an interactive topper, or interactive lighting display, or interactive toy on the playfield (one that moves but doesn't affect game play). It is all pleasing to the eye and adds some value to the machine, but the thought of tossing EM/SS/DMD games into the trash like we did with VHS devices will never cross anyone's mind.

Yes, that too of course.

Nobody said those old games are worthless, and nobody is going to throw those games in the trash.

Those games are already worth less than DMD and LCD which is exactly the OP's point.

Sadly, I think that puts too much faith in the current pinball market as "players" and not "looker" and "people that like to glue shit all over their machines." Whilst you and I may find gameplay the most important thing, You constantly hear people saying themes are more important to them...and we all know people will get excited and go apeshit over a games theme (GB).

Which is super important to many people on here...at least the ones spending monies on new machines.
Now, obviously the OP is just trolling and DMDs aren't going to dry up and blow away (I think all players are hoping they do so we can buy them up), but I totally can see "LCD Era" (or whatever we're going to call it "Video Display" whom knows) snobs coming in the next few years.

Damn dude you're getting some shit deals on machines man...wtf

I find the OP's claim that dropping an LCD in a new game immediately devalues all of the excellent DMD games already out there naive at best. WOZ and TH have been out for awhile and I sure haven't seen the price of good DMD games dropping any. Where's the $1000 MM or $900 TZ games at?

Speaking of DMDs specifically this time, they are almost (or perform) an artform in and of themselves. All those little dots making cool animations and sequences. When you put a normal screen in, anybody can make what is on there, it's the same as watching a YouTube video. It's basically now like a TV. It can display ANYTHING, and that certainly ranges from awful and outdated to modern and really really good. I am not a huge fan of modern games but I think JJP hit it on the head with making the display sequences modern and appealing (especially the high-definition aspect), especially the large screen. And what I've found with this 40-50 year old average design team members is that they're not as up to the modern times of producing a good image here as they think they are, speaking as a young person. Even if the smaller screen is nicer and easier to look at during gameplay, I too reminisce with the thought that the game looks 10 or 15 years old. Everything these days is big big big, and even the prices on these huge TVs and LED screens these days are insanely low. I remember back in the early to mid 2000's if you wanted a small flatscreen you were shelling out several thousand to get it. (Let alone the late 90's) Nowaways you get like a 58" flatscreen for like $500 - which shocked me when I realized. It is the new standard.

Stern is already lacking with this small screen, now it is crucial that they make sure they know what they are doing with it or they can easily make a lemon. They made the DMD look good but it is now insanely easy to make an ugly outdated looking design if you are not careful. It is VERY easy. It now has full transparency on your design, you have to get color and shading right, font, font spacing, postioning, etc., etc., since I am a designer myself I find myself often cringing at outdated or ugly design. Whether or not other people pick up on this is beyond me, but I know it must bleed over into the general population at least a little bit.

If what dung said is true and it looks like 2000's flash, that is disgusting. Regardless: Even if it looks good now, hopefully it ages well! Score reels are good at aging because they are incredibly simple and rudimentary... 2016 Stern LCD design may easily be very ugly in 2026 if it's not already. You may think it is easy to make good modern design choices because all of the companies are pretty good at it, but you must understand how many people these companies employ (Coca Cola, etc.) to make sure they are looking their best and are as modern as the rest.

The older games will become dated in time, and command less money.

It ain't gonna happen overnight, and it ain't gonna be $1000 MM or $900 TZ. Making up those prices doesn't change what will happen.

Look at bagatelles, bingo, wood rails and EM's. They were all cutting edge and desirable once.

Only to niche hobbyists. The reality is, they're not very fun. DMD pinball transcends being old and dated. They're always exciting and fun. A 90's pinball still out-funs modern arcade games.

Typical Rarehero shit; If he doesn't believe it isn't true. Wasn't alive when EMS were new but he knows they weren't cutting edge then!

If people think newer games are going to affect the value of older games you are simply mistaken.

Things like newer phones have replaced older phones and made them paperweights because they are an upgrade and a convenience, while older phones lack basic abilities. You do not see people scrapping their 60's Mustangs because they just released a new one with GPS built in.

Even old cars and pinball machines experience their dip probably about 10-15 years after they are made, but not because of specific cars or machines being released. I remembered hearing how you used to get laughed at at pinball auctions in the 90's if you bought a fully working nice Gorgar for $300. Now that game goes for >$1,000. Even if these DMD machines experience a dip in their value as an impact, I doubt this will be permanent. Or if it is, it probably won't be too low and is honestly probably for the best as they were overpriced to begin with. They will simply enter their "value is determined by the community" phase rather than "this machine is worth physically so much" phase, and whenever that goes to is what it will be. Look at EM and early SS machines, the community basically sets the entire pricing for them, they are physically probably worthless if this community did not exist (parts would have no use), and nobody has any clue what they were originally worth and if you look it up and adjust for inflation you will find that we are either buying them for way under the original price or way above for rare titles.

Don't mean to be rude, perhaps you're the old and outdated one? If you take your opinions as fact (and it appears you are), that is an incredible fallacy.

Guess what: In reality, a 90's pinball machine doesn't "out-fun modern arcade machine" to kids, and that is why the arcade machines of today earn 10x more than a 90's pinball machine will today, or even a 2016 pinball machine will. Doesn't mean they are fun to you and me (nor vice-versa, that pinball machines aren't fun to you and me), though, OF COURSE! Do you see what I am getting at?

You are trying to dictate what is fun to everybody like EM collectors while spouting your own garbage about what is good, when you are the EM collector to the kids of today. EMs are shit to you, and your games are shit to the next in line.

My Sky Jump has no value to you and your Monster Bash is a paperweight waste of space to most kids of today. Get off your high horse. This hobby is entirely opinionated, stop trying to dictate "facts" when it's impossible to do. People will like what they like, and once a pinball machine is a certain age and the parts inside become outdated and useless in any other application and the original first-owner investment becomes invalid or paid off, its value is entirely based off of how people and collectors receive it, or if it's an awful game, how valuable it is for parts for other games.

I don't think I have ever seen a more opinionated and hypocritical post before. Every single sentence is an opinion, and split down the middle you contradict your original statement. Let's count:

3) DMD pinball transcends being old and dated.

4) They're always exciting and fun.

5) A 90's pinball still out-funs modern arcade games.

Holy shit! World record!

The reality is the old crap was fun back in the day, but they're not very fun to us now. It's all relative.

It's happened to all formats in the past, and DMD era games are not immune to becoming old and dated. We'll see more improvements with later generation LCD games which will underscore the difference.

Some people will always love DMD's, as some enthusiasts love EM's today, but they will still become outdated and worth less.

(and this isn't trashing DMD games, this is meaning all pinball (including LCD games), no matter how new and fantastic you think it is compared to other eras of games, is entirely subject to the player even if they don't like ANY era)

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I don't think this is true because pinball design "peaked" in the 90's. Not that there isn't some cool innovative shit going on nowadays, it still seems the games of today are reaching for the glory days of the great 90's games, which are still the biggest influence design wise on the industry today.

You can't say when pinball design"peaked" unless pinball is completely dead and gone.

Design innovation might explode in the LCD era. Things evolve.

If the company's haven't by now then i doubt they ever will..... prices been going way up and come with way less under the glass it seems...

I wasn't talking about earnings on route...I wasn't talking about kids. I was talking about people who like pinball. The DMD era replaced SS which replaced EMs which replaced Bingos and bagatelles...in the world of pinball, nothing has replaced the DMD era games, even the games with new LCD displays...the display is different, but the GAME hasn't really changed much, if at all. The 90's games are generally more interesting in their design and features, and therefore won't be transplanted by the "LCD era" games. You can still put a DMD era game in an arcade and it'll earn as well as a JJP with an LCD screen....which to me means, the screen doesn't date it. Older pinballs seem more dated because they lack music, voice, crazy mechanical features...the further you go, the older and more dated they seem. Chimes and bells is dated. Sure, Spike Sterns and JJP games have better sound than the 90's DMD games...but those games certainly don't sound bad! Especially the DCS games and Stern SAM games.

The point is, as made earlier...LCD is just a score display, not a fundamental change to the DMD-era of pinball...and the thing about that era that people love - they still love - and the LCD games won't change that.

This is an opinion thread, [edited]! There is zero hypocrisy in what I said. EMs and old games aren't as desirable to pinball collectors. That's a fact. Their prices are lower due to lower demand. DMD-era games have risen in price because they're more desirable (due to being more FUN). The reason those games aren't as desirable isn't due to the scoring display, it's due to the design and content that the 90's designers and technology brought to the table. As we enter this next generation, sure there are color changing LEDs and color LCD displays, but the fundamental GAME hasn't changed like it did in the past. Therefore, it's safe to assume that this generation won't erase the desirability of the last one.

Not really. There are quite a number of 2-3k system 11's. That is more than thousands and thousands of dmd titles. System 11's are simpler than just about any dmd and yet people still drop big money.

I know you dont play the display but...

I recently added Color DMD's to a few of my games.

Now I just cannot go back to a regular DMD on those same games. It's too late to unsee the magic of Color DMD!

I'm likely to buy only LCD games moving forward for this very same reason. Heck after playing one of my color DMD games I am always disappointed in my TWD DMD appearance.

Alphanumeric and DMD are alive and well!!

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TWD will have a ColorDMD eventually.

... and that reminds me Niterider, next time we're playing doubles - my eyes are up here!

I look forward to it

But moving ahead I dont think Color DMD's are enough to make me buy obsolete DMD era games.

LCD offers a greater pinball experience over DMD in the same way DMD offered a greater experience over alpha numeric. Heck, some people say the experience is greater between monochrome vs color DMD on the exact same game.

I just don't see it. Sure there are HEP restored System 11 games, but they are exceptions to the value with a limited market. System 11's do not retain big money compared to newer DMD's. I think you are slightly exaggerating when you say thousands and thousands to make a point.

Even those tired old MB AFM MM games aren't commanding as much money comparatively to newer games anymore. If anything, the inflated prices on B/W 90's games have shown greater value in many of the newer games.

You're grouping collectors together again. There are a lot of people here who won't touch anything that isn't an EM and find DMD games not desirable at all. Then you have a lot of people who dabble in both, like myself. They cost less, yes, but that's likely because their is less of a footprint of EM collectors as opposed to DMD collectors, and also because the EM games were also originally a LOT less money to begin with. Although that value disappears over time as I said earlier, there is likely always some kind of link, or at least a thought process of what range it should be in. Another thing is parts, a lot of EM parts have a lot less parts and detailed playfield toys/assemblies that could be sold off - but - doesn't mean they're less fun.

No, it's because the first guy who bought it brand new overpaid at $8,000 and won't sell it for any less than $7,000 so he gets some of his investment back, then the next guy who buys it wants to earn a buck (and can) so he lists it at $7,200. Of course if one guy wants to sell the same game for $100 doesn't lower the value of the game directly, the value won't shift, value is all relative. Over time, the price depreciates especially as it passes from collector to collector - EM games started lower to begin with and have had longer to do this, and only started rising once "pinflation" began.

If you're bringing price in the mix, you're comparing apples to oranges. Obviously my game from 1970 is not going to cost as much as your game you bought 4 years ago brand new from the factory, it's 43 years older! More potential wear, no expensive circuit boards (value), and of course yours is just shiny and brand new which adds it's own premium (one that a lot of us laugh at as we watch you guys argue about it together).

Age = less value. (But doesn't mean they're less fun, a lot of people here enjoy a good EM game as opposed to a DMD game, EM games are more challenging, etc.) Seriously, look down the line. If anything, the nice EM games are gaining in value. The prices for restored 70's wedgeheads right now are through the roof.

2010 = 4-8k avg., now increasing because of sooper-dooper mega LEs
2000 = Couple thousand, maybe 3k avg.
1990 = 2-3k
1980 = 1k
1970 = $500-$2500
1960 = $500-$700
1950 = $300-$600
<1940 = Not much anymore, a lot of the collectors who are reminiscing with these games have passed away/getting too old, the pre-war stuff plummeted in value over the last 20 years I heard due to this

Cheap shot of the post: But hey, at least ours are finished (no "code updates" here!) and somehow flake stuff off the playfield less frequently than a 2 month old game.

Good that means prices should come down, just like when VHS went to DVD. DVD's were a lot easier to make so the prices dropped a lot. Just like here. LCD's are a dime a dozen. No more expensive specialized parts. So the cost of the machine should go down.

Otaku, you're going off on tangents that have nothing to do with this thread.

Back to the premise: are the Dmd era pins obsolete because Stern changed the Dmd to a LCD?

Answer - no, because what's on the playfield is exactly the same, if not less innovative than the 90's games. New games are cool, but have not blown people away to the point that they can't look at Dmd era games anymore. WOZ not doing it years ago was proof. WOZ already existed when MMr was announced. Not only did the HD LCD game not make a dent in opinions of Dmd games - 1000 people pre-ordered a remake of an OLDER Dmd game!!!

Funhouse, Earthshaker, and Whirlwind bring the moolah in any condition.

You seriously haven't realized that it's just the factories continuously raising the prices and that the pinball sheep keep buying them? Considering how long a "I'M NOT BUYING STERN GAMES ANYMORE - HELP STOP THE MADNESS - SAY NO TO STERN'S PRICES" thread goes on 'round here, you'd think everybody would be on the same page.

If some guy (meaning a ton of DMD game pinsiders) pays $10,000 for a game brand new, he's obviously not going to sell it for $5,000 (or 6, 7, or 8k) only three years later. Of course the 90's DMD games don't cost as much, they've had a lot longer to depreciate in value, and the only reason the value gap was so close to begin with is because they made a rebound/comeback. As now stated, the bigger thing is probably how WELL the 90's games have held value compared (or ABOVE) to either original price point. You should be very proud of that value gap being so small, not chastising it for growing larger apart. (especially if the pinball big wigs blatantly keep adding hundreds or even thousands to new games prices, it's gonna grow apart regardless of how great DMD games are)

Hell, even if you locked each game at MSRP value, with how swindled people are getting on prices these days, you'd still probably be paying a ton more as is.

Well, let's just like what we like but stop trying to shove your supposed "facts" down people's throats. Your specific ideology consists of 100% opinions.

Wow, what a bummer! Kind of makes you surprised people keep buying them then, especially for heavily increasing prices. I'm out. Listen, I'm just a dude who can't afford any of this shit, DMD or LCD, but hopefully some of my posts have opened the eyes a little of others who shell out easily more than I've paid for my entire 25 game collection for one game which has the same exact stuff as a game from 20 years ago did. I'm honestly surprised the LCD thing didn't come 10 years ago, or at least 5 especially when it was already very easily accessible. You'd think, but apparently it took them a long time. People must have liked the DMD screens. They're actually older technology but it never really left the taste of "old" in my mouth and apparently was never a pressing issue. So, congrats to Stern on arriving in 2005. Still think they should have gone with the bigger screen like JJP for beauty over purpose, because it still screams "2001 gameboy screen" to me. Let's hope it's at least HD, because it definitely isn't eye-pleasing, even when the thing is turned off. Maybe they'll get up to the speed of their competitor 20 years from now. And I'm not even a JJP fanboy, again, can't afford either of them. But speaking as a millennial, if you put these two games next to each other, the JJP games will likely look cooler, more advanced, and newer - even if this game's theme wasn't Aerosmith! (I personally like Aerosmith, but wanted to make clear although the theme would also be an issue that my point was not based on that) Luckily Stern is mostly catering to people who still use Windows XP, but on route, I could see this hurting earnings compared to a JJP game. My peers are all about computer building and having large computer screens, high resolutions, and HD picture quality.

I know you older generational folks don't resonate much with the Game Boy, but even Nintendo's got it right (bigger screen is better), and it's actually really good 3D too!

Stern (added the first image of some good ol' WordArt especially incase they're using flash like dung said):

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JJP:
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