Import scripts can always be written for both directions....

Although understandable it is disappointing news, a niche market (Pinball Machines) of a niche market (DMD Displays) of a niche market (Colour DMD Displays) continues to fragment itself.

I'll reiterate my plea to @dmod... as unrealistic as it may be, please, release a product for the VP community. For real machines this fragmentation is not too big of a deal but for the even more niche market of VP folks out there a single solution would be ideal.

I personally cant see colorDMD releasing any thing to the vp community (ie connected to pinMAME)

Mainly because there artwork roms are one of there biggest assets and putting it into some sort of format that vp users could use it would almost certainly end up with it pirated within days and worst case end up on some cheap clone version of colorDMD hardware and sold for real pins.

Just my opinion but would end very badly for colorDMD just not worth it.

It's inevitable that it gets cracked and dumped eventually.

But yeah, that would likely be serving it up on a silver platter ...

Why would anyone in our small community of enthusiasts do that?

You made something awesome and successful, so screw you. WTF.

Everything does. Just look elsewhere other than the pinball community.

Not that you need look further ... see Pin2K replacement system (forget its name) getting cracked and distributed. Other much more recent stuff is getting distributed too, though I won't mention names as it'll just encourage it.

As was suggested, doing something with PinMAME would just be an open invitation.

Dont even need to look else where it happens here all the time

That cool RunDMD clock was ripped off and cloned and sold as GoDMD

pin2dmd started off by creating / selling illegal fake pinDMD2 clones before creating there own stuff.

Most innovations are ripped off around here sooner or later.

I'd love a color display for my Demolition Man

Here lies the issue me simply saying that kit uses the same hardware does not give you the right to give detailed instructions to the community how to steal pinDMD2 firmware and install on none pinDMD2 hardware. This is illegal but you don't care! And I gave up long ago trying to explain this Nor do i even care any more. Your friend took it one step further and starting selling illegal pinDMD2 clones.

Literally no regard for other peoples work or products! And you wonder why certain people dislike you!
Again I gave up caring long ago and moved on my with my life as there are far more important things to care about!

Regards
Russell Pirie

Well here's another voice speaking out against Joerg Amman (Lucky1) and his theft of other projects. Lucky1 and Steve also ripped off ColorDMD's patented method for real-time recognition and colorization of pinball frames. I'm not speaking about the general idea of coloring frames. This is a very specific method for uniquely identifying frames based on static content while ignoring dynamic content like scores.

The infringement is so brazen as the Pin2DMD editior and documentation use the same terminology of "hashes" and 'masks" described in the patent. I specifically contacted them to request that they remove the ColorDMD methods before distributing the V2 editor and was told to pound sand because they "live in Germany" and "don't need to worry about US patents."

Lucky1 and Steve have ripped off pindmd, the Run-DMD clock, ColorDMD's patents, and Steve has also gone on to help create "Rasberry PinSound", a complete knockoff of Pinsound. I found out about this last bit after hearing from the Pinsound founders in March, who were equally disturbed.

There's no misunderstanding here. It's absolutely astonishing to me the justifications that Lucky1 has contrived to defend their unethical and abusive behavior. They have absolutely no respect for anyone else's contributions, and are not worthy of community support.

No you did not just tell people to install ILLEGAL firmware you told them what kit to use and explained what the pinouts were and how to create a little wiring loom to connect to the DMD you explained in great detail how to create a knock off pinDMD2.

And what makes me laugh the most is when pinballsp came along and stole your pin2dmd firmware you cried! And created a thread here winging he stole your firmware. Yet you did the exact same thing to pinDMD2.

Its literally pointless saying any of this as you have no regard for any one else or their work/products and even the law for that matter!

Nothing will change!
I feel sorry for any new innovations around here as it will only be ripped off within months, pointless bothering.

Yet here I am supporting them and looking forward to buying PinballSP's new jumbo DMDMK66 displays and others (which ColorDMD does not have a solution for yet that I know of). Your tone on a public forum goes a long way.

I'm not sure if there are different 128x16 boards that Data East originally shipped... but I know that your connector layout will not physically work on a Checkpoint without modifying the wood insert panel.
This is the issue I ran into, when I bought replacement LED displays from PinLED in Germany.
One picture is original Checkpoint power & data cable hole locations.
The other picture is where I eventually had to saw into the wood, to make the PinLED's fit.

NOTE: Checkpoint's DMD mounts in the insert panel area, and not between the speakers like other Data East games.

PinLED2 (resized).jpg
Chkpnt1 (resized).jpg

As the creator of a thread instructing others how to create a "poor man's ColorDMD," I wouldn't expect anything less.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/diy-addams-family-poor-mans-color-dmd

However, you've missed the point. The issue isn't with creating/selling a color display. DMD Extender, SmartDMD, XPin, PinDMD3, and others have been doing that for years. The 192x64 display alone is also fine.

The issue is theft/infringement of other projects' contributions to the hobby, specifically by Pin2DMD but now also by PinballSP. In ColorDMD's case, specific patented methods for frame-colorization. And if you have any doubt as to their disregard for ethical/legal considerations, consider this gem above where PinballSP and Lucky1 exchange their thoughts on direct copyright infringment of "third-party" artwork.

pasted_image (resized).png

Regardless of what ever else he / they have done, unless you are claiming they cracked your firmware and used portions of it themselves, or obtained your colouring software, decompiled it and used bits of it, there is no 'theft' from you. Certainly the hardware is very different.

You're up in arms about being told "to go pound sand" because they say they don't have to worry about US patents. They don't, as you well know.

If you want your methods, which you clearly feel to be highly innovative and patent worthy, to be protected in EU countries, then I strongly suggest you attempt to obtain patents in an EU country (preferably Germany), and then you'll be covered through the zone. As you no doubt realise, you'd have practically zero chance of success in such an endeavour, because the rather strange tenets of US patent law are not shared globally.

I don't see where he said that.

Also, even if that were the case, can you explain precisely how that is illegal? Perhaps it is, but I'm not so sure ... [legality and ethics are not necessarily the same thing]

Anyway, I would imagine that the ColorDMD colour data ROMs do have some kind of protection.

I agree with you. Unfortunately you didn't create anything "absolutely different". You directly implemented the ColorDMD patent as part of Pin2DMD, just as you directly implemented SmartDMD's technology and included the grayscale-to-color mapping of DMD Extender.

Your initial VPin interface was directly taken from PinDMD.

I assumed he meant colour files for either your system (PIN2DMD) or the SmartDMD.

No-one claims ownership of the colouring data for those games, so there is no question of theft. Many of your users already use Metallica and AC/DC SmartDMD colouring.

Even if he was intending to do something with the ColorDMD stuff, where ownership is clearly stated, I suspect it would fall in a legal grey area.

There's nothing illegal whatsoever about reverse engineering, as you should know if you have a coding background.

He specifically mentions TFT. Neither Pin2DMD or SmartDMD support a TFT output.

If you want to debate "illegal" vs "unethical", no need. I'm satisfied with either definition.

AFAIK SmartDMD is only LCD.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/smartdmd-dmd-interface-with-colors-upscaling-network-and-more

I'll give you then that there's no bias in his statement about whose "third-party" artwork is directly imported. Development on any platform is fair game. Great news for all colorists.

He'd have no reason to record your stuff using a camera from LCD. He'd do it from LED.

Anyway, if he's really going to develop software or scripts to record and accurately grab the data from video or via a 'circuit' (FPGA?), then I suspect that will take him significantly more time to develop than he's spent on his hardware and code thus far.

Would be quite innovative ... but unlikely very realistic for the immediate future. If he is able to do it, I'd put money on it *not* happening in the next 2 years.

For consumers, though, it would likely be good, as it would force a hardware arms race / prices down.

We're veering off course but if this is justification for copying work, it's unlikely to play out this way...

It's a small market with high-investment costs (time/resources) and low volume. In the face of reduced volume either by a shrinking market or competition, take a look at the pinball market as a whole.

A manufacturer has a few choices in order to maintain profitability:
(1) Cut development
(2) Increase prices
(3) Reduce manufacturing costs

Of course, reduced volume implies that you're not able to retain market share through product differentiation.

Which methods have you seen used in the pinball industry? Reduced prices has never been one of them.

In ColorDMD's case, at least for the time being, we still have a good deal of product differentiation through LED and LCD support, as well as having a large number of undsclosed methods for handling all kinds of difficult animation sequences that weren't known at the time of the patent filing.

All that aside... remember ColorDMD is a small part-time business that exists only with the support of the community. Producing quality results is difficult. It takes tremendous effort and investment in time and resources. We work every day to make it better and extend support for new titles.

If we lose that support and it doesn't make sense to continue as a business, we'll likely cut development first and eventually give away the IP. Either way, we'll be satisfied with the contribution we were able to make to the hobby.

However, it's still difficult to read posts where blatant copying is applauded and happening on multiple projects.

If he or others were to do such a thing, one could potentially make the argument that he was benefiting from your work in a similar way to you benefiting from the original work of the artists / companies that made the game. Indeed, you and everyone else are intercepting in a manner which means they can't be pursued by the rights holders of the original art.

Anyway, no the above quote is not meant as justification, it's comment that competition (whether copycat or not) breeds innovation ... which is a justification for much looser (than US) patent law.

You probably have 2+ years before what your system offers as of today is broadly replicated, and then unlikely without various modes of your LCD solution which some people prefer. That's a lot of time to come up with stuff that'll keep you ahead of the game.

They are benefiting from the work that Russ, I, and others have already done... today.

With regard to ColorDMD and the rights holders, both WMS/PPS and Stern were contacted before we ever released anything for their games. There was no issue with what we were doing and the integrity of their IP was protected.

In contrast, the project leads that have been affected believe that Joerg/Steve's use of our innovations has been highly unethical (at the least) whether you care to agree or not.

The information is available. Russ and I have shared some of it here. The community will ultimately decide what they want to support.

I'd like to see ColorDMD development continue as it does now for as long as possible, but will adapt if needed.

---

Also, as commented upon in another thread, the saying is "Necessity is the mother of invention." The innovations by ColorDMD, PinDMD, and others filled a perceived "need."

I've never seen any argument that supports copying as breeding innovation. Though maybe "innovation breeds copying" is true.

Noise to signal ratio in this thread is getting to be a bit much. Here's my problem. I would love to ColorDMD all my viable games (9), but only have 1 (TWD) because it's a cost thing. "You paid $XXXX for the game, but can't pay $XXX to color it?". Yeh I get it, but I'm generally not a fan of expensive mods that don't alter game play. Personal opinion. that said, I love ColorDMD and the amazing developers behind it, just not ~$400 love. So for me I welcome competition that will drive the price into a range that would allow me to pull the trigger. However, as a software developer, I stand behind intellectual copyrights at all costs and what I'm reading here is most disturbing.

No-one is benefiting from your work except you, your collaborators and your customers.

Unless you're going to substantiate general claims of theft with specific accusations or evidence of the use of your firmware or software code, or the code from the colouring files, then there is nothing to see here.

I don't know the details of Russ' case except for the he said, she said. But others definitely have benefited from his work. It's a question of permission. His code was used, and sold, and on an identical hardware kit. The case you plead isn't remotely similar.

A very broad, vague patent, the contents of which others are 'using', or in your mind violating, is a classic case of why the US patent system is so broken, and why so much patent trolling and inhibition of innovation takes place. There are many articles and essays decrying how unethical the system is.

If what you claim to be so innovative was really so ground breaking, I have to ask why, if not before, then certainly after PIN2DMD appeared, you haven't applied for and been granted patents in Germany?

Furthermore, what would you have done if the license holders had said "we want you to pay $XX license fee per unit" ?

You'd have refused and explained you were not using their IP, due to the method employed. That's specifically why you (and others) have done it the way you have. It's not a patent worthy innovation, it's just the path of least resistance to avoid either getting sued or having to pay license fees.

If - big *IF* - Luis or others manage to grab all of your colouring data, then you will certainly have something to complain about, though given the suggested method it's unlikely there would be anything illegal about it.

The more you sabre rattle and accuse people of theft, the more determined you'll make some people to take actions that actually will harm your business, and use the work you and your collaborators have worked so hard on. So why pre-empt it? You're cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Without reading everything in the thread it appears at a glance that there are a few issues at play with regard to the intellectual property of ColorDMD.

ColorDMD has patents in the US which they can use to protect their inventions in the US. I believe those patents also can be used in the legal system to prevent people from other countries from disseminating/importing infringing property in the US. The US patents are not enforceable in other countries so the only issue with copying the invention for use in Europe would be a moral or ethical issue.
Regarding software/programming you will get into copyright infringement which I have no knowledge of the laws between countries, but I would suspect there would be some available avenue for legal arguments regarding software intellectual property that could be stronger than patents which gives you only protection in the US.

There is no top/bottom/up/down on the original Cherry DMD display. (only the PCB text being right-side up)
On the PinLED displays there is a Up/Down arrows on the PCB.

(the black electrical tape "masking" and black painted edges of the LED segments was my addition)

Chkpnt3 (resized).jpg

Chkpnt2 (resized).jpg

My argument isn't with you and you're entitled to form your own opinion. I'll respond to your comments/questions and then you can have the last word.

The ColorDMD patents (there are three of them now, having each been subjected to multiple reviews by different US patent examiners and approved) cover a very specific implementation for real-time coloring of monochrome pinball frames... both hardware and method. it does not cover the general idea of colorizing a video frame.

The patents contribute a unique method of masking and hashing pinball video frames in order to recognize the frame using unique static attributes while ignoring dynamically varying content (like player scores). The technique is applied offline in order to create a lookup table of corresponding color information which is then indexed and applied in real-time while the game is playing. The patent goes into extensive detail as to how these operations are performed. In fact, a basic requirement of a patent is that it can be implemented by someone "skilled in the art."

The Pin2DMD founders willfully and knowingly implemented the patent both in the Pin2DMD editor as well as the playback hardware. This is indisputable, as the documentation for the editor and the GUI itself includes the same terminology (hashes and masks) created and used in the patent.

The only point of contention is that since they reside in Germany, and the patents apply to sales/use in the United States, they believe they are justified to copy and use whatever they want without legal recourse. They have also argued that software patents aren't allowed in Germany and expressed their general contempt of the US patent system on the forum and in private emails.

This is a legal argument by the way, and ignores general ethics which is really what should prevail in a small community.

The international patent system doesn't work this way. The US and international filings need to be made at the same time and international filings are much more expensive because the patent has to be reviewed by many countries.

To be honest, I never expected to need the patent as ColorDMD was a one-off project for a niche market. I never thought anyone would be crazy enough to invest time to copy it. The main reason the US patent was filed was just to have a documented record before disclosing it to others to see if it was worth the sizable investment I needed to make in order to try to share it with the community.

Something like this did happen, and we found terms that were agreeable to all parties. Could I have fought or ignored it? Possibly, but I was doing this to have fun and make a contribution. I never thought the idea would amount to much and thought it might be panned by the RGP purists anyway. I wasn't looking for headaches and if we couldn't come to terms, I would have just walked away.

The actions by Pin2DMD and private interactions I've had with them have never sat well with me. I've since found out they've taken similar actions on three other projects. In the past week, I've seen this push further with PinballSP proposing to copy the artwork outright. It was time to speak up.

I cant believe any one thinks this is acceptable or even remotely legal??? Please tell me thats not the case. He has literally written on a public forum he will steal colorDMDs hardwork which colorDMD have invested thousands of hours and lots if $$$$ into creating just to have it stolen / sold or given away with another product.

This is incredible and not a community i want to be part of where this sort of behavior is rewarded.

Just the other week there was a thread on here where a guys website content was stolen much like what pinballsp is suggesting on doing with colorDMDs roms and there was an uproar like 100 pinsiders came together and resolved the situation!!! Yet here no one cares?

That one quote alone would make me want to have nothing todo with a pinballsp product! Built on stolen ideas and literally soon to be stolen content. Nice....

When I contacted you, I specifically requested only that you remove the ColorDMD colorization method from Pin2DMD V2 and revert back to the grayscale-to-palette mapping that you had been using to that point.

When you asked me about SmartDMD, I explained that there was no conflict with side-channel method of signalling the frame but there could be an issue with the single byte palette identifier (which Olivier created while consulting with ColorDMD). However, if you want to continue to use SmartDMD's single byte palette identifier, and have Olivier's permission, go for it. I won't bother you.

But I will appeal to you yet again publicly to remove the ColorDMD colorization method from the Pin2DMD, and stop taking from other projects without their permission.

You're perfectly welcome to come up with your own ideas that are better than anything that has come before.

PinDMD, Run-DMD, ColorDMD, Pinsound. It's too much.

It was not the personal use of the pinDMD2 that annoyed me it was the fact you created a thread on a public forum and with very clear and detailed instructions told every one else how to do it as well!!! Why do this? The only outcome of that move was that it would hurt my sales, as of course every one would rather go down the free route then help support a product in a niche market. That's what really annoyed me! And then the store owner just plain out right created/sold clones FROM YOUR INSTRUCTIONS (he would not of been able to do this without your help!) is where I drew the line and legal threats were made.

Stuff like this just sucks the life out of being creative/innovative in this hobby and destroys all enthusiasm I have to create products like this.

The other argument above about more people creating the same product will drive prices down. NO, maybe in the car or tv market where the big companies are worth BILLION's and can afford to slash there prices to compete. But in a tiny little niche market like this the products dont make a huge profit and most people do it for the love of the hobby not to make a vast sums of money and the only result of every one making the same shit is you will get a CRAPPY CHEAP SHIT product. So if you want a cheap product fine you can have one but it will be a piece of shit as well and i'm sure you dont want that! You get what you pay for!

This. +1