(Topic ID: 64857)

DMD Colorization Alternatives and a Plea for Community Supported Colorization

By winteriscoming

10 years ago


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    There are 116 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
    #1 10 years ago

    A recent thread I started, which showed the installation of an LCD in my Jurassic Park utilizing the DMD Extender product, included a minor discussion of the differences between DMD Extender and ColorDMD, and the lack of community managed colorization tools.

    Let's continue that discussion in its own thread. I invite any manufacturers to the discussion.

    This is a multifaceted discussion including, but not limited to these points:

    1. Does ColorDMD own the sole rights to colorizing a DMD? They have submitted a patent for doing such and expressed concerns, though apparently not legal action, about a competitor's colorization software violating their IP. The creator of DMDExtender was developing colorization software that would have been released to the community called RGBDMD.

    2. If ColorDMD owns the sole rights, what are the limits of those rights? I believe one can utilize a P-ROC, an LCD, and publicly available software to colorize an existing game. Doesn't the Cactus Canyon Continued project do this? This method would be a bit overkill for just a colorization effort, but can be done. Does the existence of this method violate ColorDMD's IP?

    3. Does the community want tools to colorize on their own? Wouldn't the sales of a product that supports this skyrocket? The argument that the task is difficult or time-consuming isn't valid. The argument that quality of releases may not be good isn't valid. The community would be able to decide what is good and isn't, just like they do with Visual Pinball tables, etc. There's some real community-generated crap out there, but there are also diamonds in the rough that make the whole thing work.

    Just to make it clear, I'm not a developer of any of these products. I currently own a DMDExtender and a P-ROC, so obviously support them, but have no games that can currently utilize a ColorDMD, so I have no way of supporting them with a purchase at this time.

    Discuss away!

    Thanks,
    Jim

    #2 10 years ago

    DMD Frames are copyright (and trademark) of the respective game manufacturing companies. Reproducing them (unless something benign like a single color LCD) is an issue (yes CCC is an issue). So, unless the solution somehow is not recreating frames, then there is not an easy way without working with mfg's or licensee's to colorize. Ideally at least for new games this becomes a non-issue, but we're still not there yet. And on top of that there can be patent which is generally 'how' the colorization is done.

    #3 10 years ago

    This is why ColorDMDs don't actually reproduce the artwork or alter anything on the ROMs, they're transforming them on the fly. So no license or permission required. It's also not easy to solve a lot of the problems that creates.

    #4 10 years ago

    Please post when this gets close to reality for JP

    #5 10 years ago
    Quoted from PPS:

    DMD Frames are copyright (and trademark) of the respective game manufacturing companies. Reproducing them (unless something benign like a single color LCD) is an issue (yes CCC is an issue). So, unless the solution somehow is not recreating frames, then there is not an easy way without working with mfg's or licensee's to colorize. Ideally at least for new games this becomes a non-issue, but we're still not there yet. And on top of that there can be patent which is generally 'how' the colorization is done.

    Yea. I'm not buying into this. As long as the original code is not redistributed an no encryptions are being broken, I don't think copyright covers this. If the new frames are stored and distributed with the code, then ok there's a claim. But if the colorization is done all on the fly based solely off some form of logic, I don't see a claim.

    Copyright protects the copyright holder from redistribution of his work. In the case of colorizing a game, the user already has the copyrighted content. No new copyrighted content is being offered. However, the copyright holder does not own the process in which the work is delivered to the user - which seems to be what's being discussed here.

    For example, I can purchase a book. I can have it read aloud to me by a female voice or I can read the text to myself. The delivery is irrelevant. I can also create a robotic device that reads the book to me as well. I would not have to re-license the book before I could distribute my robot. That's just silly.

    I think the original posters question was in reference to Colordmds claim that they own the process of colorizing a Dmd frame not regarding the ownership of the underlying software content.

    #6 10 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    I think the original posters question was in reference to Colordmds claim that they own the process of colorizing a Dmd frame not regarding the ownership of the underlying software content.

    In my opinion, any potential copyright issues are beside the point. I'm sure the visual pinball community violates copyrights all the time, where the fault likely lies with those distributing the copyrighted material, and not the developers of the platform. This is more about technology behind colorizing.

    Let's remove the copyright issue by saying, for example, that I used the P-ROC to develop a completely original game with 4-shade DMD animations for display on a standard DMD. I then gave permission for anyone to use any means they wish to colorize on-the-fly. Does ColorDMD own the sole rights to doing this?

    Thanks,
    Jim

    #7 10 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    Yea. I'm not buying into this. As long as the original code is not redistributed an no encryptions are being broken, I don't think copyright covers this.

    It doesn't, which is why ColorDMD is in business still. I don't think anyone is actually disputing that, just pointing out that there's a reason they have to do things they way they do, even if it's a more difficult route than some other methods perhaps.

    Quoted from winteriscoming:

    In my opinion, any potential copyright issues are beside the point.

    No offense, but that opinion doesn't carry any water when it comes time for people to actually put a lot of time and money into a project. Not when a rightsholder like Rick can make a legal claim against all your work to shut you down. So you can't simply hand wave that part away.

    But let's follow your example. This has nothing to do with you granting permission. The whole point is that ColorDMD doesn't actually need permission from the copyright holder, they're not violating it. And you cannot grant permission for someone else to use their particular methodology. Not yours to grant.

    You could grant permission for someone to alter your ROM and redistribute it, but to bring this back to the real world that would require Rick and Stern and any other rights holder to do that if you wanted to follow a similar path for commercial pins.

    #8 10 years ago
    Quoted from winteriscoming:

    2. If ColorDMD owns the sole rights, what are the limits of those rights?

    The limits of the rights are defined by the independent claims of the patent application. The patent application is to my best knowledge the US2012190440 A1. There does not seem to be a patent application outside of the United States. Therefore, there does not exist protection outside the US (the time limit for subsequent international applications is to my best knowledge expired). You can find the patent application for example here:

    http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=US&NR=2012190440A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20120726&DB=worldwide.espacenet.com&locale=en_EP

    The independent claims are claim 1 and 10:
    Claim1:
    " A display device for providing an upgraded graphical experience, the device comprising:
    an input connector connectable to a video output port of an electronic device for receiving electronic graphical data suitable for an early generation display;
    a processor capable of performing the following steps:
    receiving the electronic graphical data through the video output port;
    defining frames from the electronic graphical data;
    generating a tag for each of the frames;
    matching the generated tag to a set of preprogrammed tags; and
    outputting an output graphical data based on the matched preprogrammed tags; and
    a later generation display connected to the processor capable of receiving and displaying the output graphical data."

    Claim 10:
    " A method for providing upgraded graphics to an electronic device having an early generation display, the method comprising the steps of:
    receiving electronic graphical data suitable for the early generation display from the electronic device;
    defining frames from the electronic graphical data;
    generating a tag for each of the frames;
    matching the generated tag to a set of preprogrammed tags; and
    outputting output graphical data based on the matched preprogrammed tags to the later generation display."

    A technical solution will violate the patent application if it implements all of the properties described in claim 1 and/ or 10. It will not violate the patent application if only one property is missing.

    The dependent claims are not important for this analysis because they add additional properties and therefore narrow the scope of protection. They are of high interest in the patent prosecution process. Very often the applicant has to integrate properties of the dependent claims in the independent claims in order to satisfy the requirements of novelty and inventiveness. Keep in mind that the US2012190440 A1 is not a granted patent so far.

    #9 10 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    It doesn't, which is why ColorDMD is in business still. I don't think anyone is actually disputing that, just pointing out that there's a reason they have to do things they way they do, even if it's a more difficult route than some other methods perhaps.

    No offense, but that opinion doesn't carry any water when it comes time for people to actually put a lot of time and money into a project. Not when a rightsholder like Rick can make a legal claim against all your work to shut you down. So you can't simply hand wave that part away.
    But let's follow your example. This has nothing to do with you granting permission. The whole point is that ColorDMD doesn't actually need permission from the copyright holder, they're not violating it. And you cannot grant permission for someone else to use their particular methodology. Not yours to grant.
    You could grant permission for someone to alter your ROM and redistribute it, but to bring this back to the real world that would require Rick and Stern and any other rights holder to do that if you wanted to follow a similar path for commercial pins.

    Copyright is beside the point for this discussion, and my example was only to remove it as an issue, not to say that because I granted permission, that someone can violate a patent to colorize it.

    If a rightsholder wants to shutdown a community distributing copyrighted materials, that's on them and the community, not the developer of the platform and tools that the community uses while violating copyrights. I wish them the best of luck shutting something down like the visual pinball community. The tools themselves wouldn't violate any copyrights.

    I'd rather focus this topic on community driven colorization and whether or not ColorDMD owns the exclusive rights to this ability, per their patent application.

    #10 10 years ago

    If ColorDMD have a patent, that is why patents exist. They conceived of the concept of coloring a monochrome pinball dmd. To that end, they were first, and the patent then protects their work.

    I'm going on the assumption that their patent exists and is applicable.

    #11 10 years ago

    There is no legal equivalent of "firsties".

    Sorry.

    #12 10 years ago

    To file a patent application that is novel and inventive compared to prior art it is pretty helpful to be first.

    #13 10 years ago

    You just have to be first to file the patent, not the original inventor.

    #14 10 years ago
    Quoted from Miguel351:

    You just have to be first to file the patent, not the original inventor.

    that's not true. the concept of "prior art" is very important in determining the validity of patents.

    #15 10 years ago

    Just a couple of comments:

    Quoted from winteriscoming:

    If a rightsholder wants to shutdown a community distributing copyrighted materials, that's on them and the community, not the developer of the platform and tools that the community uses while violating copyrights.

    It's been done before - Napster.

    Quoted from winteriscoming:

    I wish them the best of luck shutting something down like the visual pinball community. The tools themselves wouldn't violate any copyrights.

    Depends upon how you define the community and how you report on what the community does with your tools. Those who run visual pinball are *VERY* vigilant over there to make sure what they do is in line with copyright and complying with their license agreements (logins, availability of certain tables, etc.) For example, go try and find P2K ROMs over there.

    viperrwk

    #16 10 years ago
    Quoted from viperrwk:

    Just a couple of comments:

    It's been done before - Napster.

    Depends upon how you define the community and how you report on what the community does with your tools. Those who run visual pinball are *VERY* vigilant over there to make sure what they do is in line with copyright and complying with their license agreements (logins, availability of certain tables, etc.) For example, go try and find P2K ROMs over there.
    viperrwk

    Napster isn't an appropriate example. Napster was a platform for hosting and sharing copyrighted material. To Napster's credit, the culture it pioneered didn't die with it. I'd see a colorization tool as more of an art program. You can't shutdown Adobe just because someone is capable of using Photoshop to violate copyright and a community of people on a forum promote its use as a copyright infringing tool.

    I'd also question the gray area that Virtual Pinball seems to be in. How is it not a violation of copyright if I'm given access to download a table I don't own, along with the playfield artwork? I'm sure everyone out there with a VP cabinet owns all the games they play on it...

    At any rate, I believe we've covered that it is apparently possible to colorize a game without violating copyright, though I am not clear on how that is possible. It would appear to me that even calling up a copyrighted image inside of a colorizing software could be construed as reproducing an image in violation of copyright.

    -1
    #17 10 years ago

    There are TVs that upconvert signals, even turn them into 3d images.

    #18 10 years ago

    Here's an archived entry from a blog called "reckless engineer" that looks to be an example of "prior art" that was posted on July 3, 2011, before the ColorDMD patent application was submitted. Sounds pretty similar in scope...

    Look for the header "DMD Upgrade."
    http://web.archive.org/web/20120119054011/http:/blog.recklessengineer.com

    #19 10 years ago
    Quoted from frolic:

    There are TVs that upconvert signals, even turn them into 3d images.

    Fair point, but they don't require that someone took all of the frames and added color to them manually.

    #20 10 years ago
    Quoted from winteriscoming:

    Here's an archived entry from a blog called "reckless engineer" that looks to be an example of "prior art" that was posted on July 3, 2011, before the ColorDMD patent application was submitted. Sounds pretty similar in scope...
    Look for the header "DMD Upgrade."
    http://web.archive.org/web/20120119054011/http:/blog.recklessengineer.com

    He didn't actually build anything though, just described it.

    #21 10 years ago
    Quoted from winteriscoming:

    Fair point, but they don't require that someone took all of the frames and added color to them manually.

    I feel like you're missing the point. The ColorDMD programmatically responds to the stream of display information coming through the cable to the display. Here, let me give you another example. Say I build an EQ box for music. Enhances the bass and highs using some proprietary algorithm, but what's special about it is I can program it for individual albums. You can set it to Dark Side of Moon via a download, and then when you play that album it changes the EQ on the fly as the music plays to enhance the music in a certain way. When Money plays it slides the bass EQ around in some special way. It's a stupid idea, but you get the point.

    Pink Floyd could not shut down my EQ box for copyright infringement, there is none. The album will sound different playing through my box, it's changed, but they would have no legal recourse, I'm simply altering the signal in real time, nothing on the album itself has been touched.

    If you want to do your own live EQ box you certainly can, but you can't build it the same way I did, using my algorithms.

    #22 10 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    I feel like you're missing the point. The ColorDMD programmatically responds to the stream of display information coming through the cable to the display. Here, let me give you another example. Say I build an EQ box for music. Enhances the bass and highs using some proprietary algorithm, but what's special about it is I can program it for individual albums. You can set it to Dark Side of Moon via a download, and then when you play that album it changes the EQ on the fly as the music plays to enhance the music in a certain way. When Money plays it slides the bass EQ around in some special way. It's a stupid idea, but you get the point.
    Pink Floyd could not shut down my EQ box for copyright infringement, there is none. The album will sound different playing through my box, it's changed, but they would have no legal recourse, I'm simply altering the signal in real time, nothing on the album itself has been touched.
    If you want to do your own live EQ box you certainly can, but you can't build it the same way I did, using my algorithms.

    It may very well programatically respond to the data coming in from the cable, but at some point during the colirization process, someone has to display each frame in an art tool in order to colorize them. That data has to be saved out somewhere and called up when the matching original frame comes up from the game. How is saving a colorized version of each frame, however they get encoded in the process, not a violation of copyright?

    #23 10 years ago
    Quoted from epthegeek:

    He didn't actually build anything though, just described it.

    A patent is, itself, only a description, is it not?

    To me, the idea in the patent is pretty generic... put an LCD (or more generically, any modern display) in an old game and use something to interpret signals and update/colorize the images. It's not too farfetched that more than one person could conceive of this "invention."

    I also question whether or not LED DMDs do something similar. They have to interpret the signals and figure out how to appropriately display them on updated technology. They even colorize based on the LED color.

    #24 10 years ago
    Quoted from winteriscoming:

    A patent is, itself, only a description, is it not?
    To me, the idea in the patent is pretty generic... put an LCD (or more generically, any modern display) in an old game and use something to interpret signals and update/colorize the images. It's not too farfetched that more than one person could conceive of this "invention."
    I also question whether or not LED DMDs do something similar. They have to interpret the signals and figure out how to appropriately display them on updated technology. They even colorize based on the LED color.

    Sorry, but this thread started out as silly and has degenerated from there. If you want a legal opinion, you should really consider consulting a patent attorney instead of a group of pinball enthusiasts.

    You cannot patent an abstract idea (http://www.uspto.gov/inventors/patents.jsp). The invention is in the "something." This particular "something" took years to develop, refine, and reduce to practice, and is defined in the claims of the patent application. My engineering notebooks (yes, I kept those) date back to summer of 2009.

    Thanks to all who have responded on our behalf. Forgive me if I don't respond again. Busy at work on some more cool somethings!

    Randy

    #25 10 years ago
    Quoted from winteriscoming:

    To me, the idea in the patent is pretty generic... put an LCD (or more generically, any modern display) in an old game and use something to interpret signals and update/colorize the images. It's not too farfetched that more than one person could conceive of this "invention."

    I suppose you could develop your own method for colorizing the DMD images. I doubt you would be in direct violation of colorDMD's patent if you, for instance, trained a very small primate, lets say a squirrel monkey, to quickly jump around the DMD with a pack of Crayons covering over each dot with a different color. If he had a large pack of crayons to choose from, say a 64 pack, then he could reproduce the frames in more colors than colorDMD currently can. That would certainly be a plus, but then Crayons are a bit waxy which could make cleaning the DMD cover difficult to do between frames. He would need some Novus 1, at a minimum. Definitely something to think about though.

    #26 10 years ago
    Quoted from jazzmaster:

    I suppose you could develop your own method for colorizing the DMD images. I doubt you would be in direct violation of colorDMD's patent if you, for instance, trained a very small primate, lets say a squirrel monkey, to quickly jump around the DMD with a pack of Crayons covering over each dot with a different color. If he had a large pack of crayons to choose from, say a 64 pack, then he could reproduce the frames in more colors than colorDMD currently can. That would certainly be a plus, but then Crayons are a bit waxy which could make cleaning the DMD cover difficult to do between frames. He would need some Novus 1, at a minimum. Definitely something to think about though.

    So is Squirrel Monkey Color open source? Or do you have a patent pending?

    Just checking.

    #27 10 years ago
    Quoted from winteriscoming:

    That data has to be saved out somewhere and called up when the matching original frame comes up from the game. How is saving a colorized version of each frame, however they get encoded in the process, not a violation of copyright?

    Because it doesn't work the way you're describing it. Look, I get that you're frustrated with ColorDMDs pace, or not doing the titles you want, or whatever this thread is about. You kind of seem to me like you're accusing them of stifling innovation, instead of being happy that they've invested so much time and money in making the hobby better. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

    But the reality is you just don't have a firm enough grasp of copyright and patent laws to make your case. I don't mean that in a rude or condescending way, it's complicated stuff and specialized fields. I'm certainly not a lawyer myself, I just happen to work for an organization (Ars Technica) that covers this kind of thing extensively, and also as a graphic artist there's a certain amount of copyright knowledge it's smart to have. I've also had a chance to talk with Randy in person about what they do, so I've got a decent high level understanding of the ColorDMD process.

    The CFTBL colorization happened with community support, someone stepped up. I imagine ColorDMD wants as many games as possible done, if nothing else it makes business sense. But if it was easy everyone would be doing it already.

    Edit: I'm working on a mod that powers your game's LEDs using squirrel monkey droppings, patent pending!

    #28 10 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Because it doesn't work the way you're describing it. Look, I get that you're frustrated with ColorDMDs pace, or not doing the titles you want, or whatever this thread is about. You kind of seem to me like you're accusing them of stifling innovation, instead of being happy that they've invested so much time and money in making the hobby better. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
    But the reality is you just don't have a firm enough grasp of copyright and patent laws to make your case. I don't mean that in a rude or condescending way, it's complicated stuff and specialized fields. I'm certainly not a lawyer myself, I just happen to work for an organization (Ars Technica) that covers this kind of thing extensively, and also as a graphic artist there's a certain amount of copyright knowledge it's smart to have. I've also had a chance to talk with Randy in person about what they do, so I've got a decent high level understanding of the ColorDMD process.
    The CFTBL colorization happened with community support, someone stepped up. I imagine ColorDMD wants as many games as possible done, if nothing else it makes business sense. But if it was easy everyone would be doing it already.
    Edit: I'm working on a mod that powers your game's LEDs using squirrel monkey droppings, patent pending!

    Does someone not actually color the images in a visual art program?

    At any rate, I like what ColorDMD is producing. I hope they keep going at it. They don't owe the community (or me) anything, and that's not quite the point I'm trying to make. I am frustrated, though, that no one else can develop colorization without fear of violating this patent, so in a way it does appear as a stifling of competition, which would be more beneficial to the community. I believe we would have community driven colorization from Dr Pinball had Randy of ColorDMD not expressed concerns over the RGBDMD development violating his IP. If a competitor released community tools, then I imagine ColorDMD would be compelled to do so as well, and the community and the hobby would be better for it.

    #29 10 years ago
    Quoted from Dmod:

    Sorry, but this thread started out as silly and has degenerated from there. If you want a legal opinion, you should really consider consulting a patent attorney instead of a group of pinball enthusiasts.

    Sorry that the topic doesn't meet your expectations, but fortunately it is a public forum where anyone is free to waste their time musing over almost any topic, however silly. At the end of the day, I don't have a horse in this race, except to say that I hope we get community colorization tools from someone at some point, so I wouldn't bother wasting the money it would take to consult patent attorneys.

    Thanks,
    Jim

    #30 10 years ago
    Quoted from Rick432:

    So is Squirrel Monkey Color open source? Or do you have a patent pending?
    Just checking.

    I'm curious if this is open source as well. Could be a fun experiment. Might be a good way to get some nice random colors going anyway.

    #31 10 years ago

    Interesting discussion. My 2 cents on a couple of points.
    As an initial matter, a pending patent application is not a patent and thus may not be infringed by anyone until after a patent, if any, issues. Many patent applications are abandoned without ever maturing into a patent.
    Second, although there are some provisions for recovering damages for infringing activities that occur before the patent issues, the claim scope of the issued patent is generally unaltered from the published claims for pre-issuance damages to be available.
    Third, the color DMD patent application has yet to be examined by the patent examiner, which means that predicting the scope of claims in any patent that issues from that application is very much a crystal ball issue. Statistically, most independent claims are amended during prosecution.
    Fourth (and final), I personally am very pro-patent because the patent protects and encourages innovation and investment (personal and financial). I know that there are other views as well.

    #32 10 years ago

    To get somewhat back on topic...

    I have been waiting for the "developer tools" that would allow people to color their own screens. ColorDMD claimed the software would be available when the products launched. The dev tools are still mentioned in the FAQ section of their website but when I emailed them to ask (again) about their release, I was told they had no eta.

    #33 10 years ago
    Quoted from Rick432:

    So is Squirrel Monkey Color open source? Or do you have a patent pending?

    Just checking.

    The Squirrel Monkey is completely on board with the open source community. However, he does take offense to his free will being stifled. As such, he maintains complete creative control over the colorization process. This may sometimes result in color choices that are not complimentary to one another or to the other visual elements of the game.

    #34 10 years ago
    Quoted from MrDo:

    The dev tools are still mentioned in the FAQ section of their website but when I emailed them to ask (again) about their release, I was told they had no eta

    They've publicly discussed them recently, as part of the CFTBL rollout. As I understand it the issue isn't the tools so much as the amount of technical support they require. It's just not something that's plug and play that anyone can do without their help as issues arise.

    Again, it's hard to imagine they don't want more games done and wouldn't be happy to have people working on them if possible, they sell hardware and the more games that are supported the more hardware they can potentially move.

    #35 10 years ago
    Quoted from winteriscoming:

    How is saving a colorized version of each frame, however they get encoded in the process, not a violation of copyright?

    They don't have to save a colorized version of each frame. As stated earlier, a tag is generated for each frame. For static images the tag would only have to call up a color grid (top 8 lines in white, middle in blue, bottom 8 lines in red) and any dots to originally be lit in amber would instead be lit in the color of their portion of the conversion grid. More involved for images like martians, where smaller divisions of grids would need to be defined for red eyes to be displayed within green bodies. Even trickier when images move out of their color zone in the grid and into another color zone, but that just requires saving different grids for different frames (all tied to the tags), not saving complete colorized images.

    #36 10 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    I get that you're frustrated with ColorDMDs pace, or not doing the titles you want.

    Hey, they're putting out titles faster than I can afford them. I've purchased them for AFM and MB and CFTBL and still need one for SS but it'll have to wait for now. And if they release them for IJ and TZ and TOM, that's another $1200+ I'll have to come up with sooner or later. I'm hoping they concentrate on more games I don't have (and don't like) so I don't have to buy all of them.

    #37 10 years ago
    Quoted from littlecammi:

    I'm hoping they concentrate on more games I don't have (and don't like) so I don't have to buy all of them.

    First world problems!

    I'm hoping that I get a chance to pick up something they support, in the meantime I'm gonna keep lobbying for The Shadow!

    #38 10 years ago

    As long as you are not 're-issuing' frames and you side-step any patent issues then I think this would be ok for any title any mfg - community or commercial, tools or not. We have had mutliple discussions with WMS on this, and they are pretty firm, if there is something that is 're-creating' frames in color - and re-issuing a frame to a LCD(etc), this is a copyright issue (when and how they get dealt with is a separate issue). The better way is to go into the source and modify, which is doable (for a subset of games). ColorDMD with Sigma helped reduce to one board that can run multiple platforms, as well as seems that the pace is accelerating ... I know from the colordmd guys that it's alot of work to colorize the frames as well as to understand how the frames transition to get a decent effect, there is alot more to it than the colorizing ...

    #39 10 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    that's not true. the concept of "prior art" is very important in determining the validity of patents.

    That kind of thing is very hard to prove without proper diligence to certify timeline by the original inventor. What's to stop somebody, right now, from coming up with a crap-ton of paperwork and drawings claiming they were first to come up with the idea of retrofitting LED's into wedge based sockets for use in cars and pinball machines and dating everything years before the first one was ever made? Without proper proof that will stand up in court, that kind of thing is very hard to prove.

    The truth is, if there's multiple ideas out there for what is in essence the same product, it's a race to the law firm and the patent office. Even then, if enough of a percentage of the one product is different from the other, a separate patent can be filed and while both are pending, both companies can sell their patent pending products. Case in point: look at the DAP X-Hose vs. the Incredible Expanding Hose. There's no way they both have full patents for an expandable garden hose. They're either both pending, or one of them was WAY too specific in their application, hereby limiting it's scope. Have you ever read an Apple patent application? "Vague" and "broad" are too small of words to use to describe the scope they're trying to cover with those! But, they do it to protect themselves in the future. They even file patents for stuff they have no intention of ever making just so they can say they came up with the idea first and sue anyone who "invents" it themselves.

    Getting back to the ColorDMD situation.....

    1) If someone goes out and buys parts to build a display for their own personal machine, but uses NONE of the same exact parts that ColorDMD sells.....

    2) Develops a coloring method that is wholly unlike anything ColorDMD utilizes, inhouse or otherwise....

    3) and uses none of the same software ColorDMD uses(or even develops their own software) to intercept and replace graphical information on said new display....

    I don't see how ColorDMD has any legal grounds to do anything to that person.

    However, if their patent is so broad that it covers the entire scope of "colorizing displays by use of a replacement LCD screen", then that's a different story. Even still, with that broad of a patent, if someone was to do all that stuff by their self and for their self only, I believe they're safe.

    I'm not saying I'm in the market to do this. I'm not saying ColorDMD doesn't do a fantastic job and I think I can do better. I'm not even saying I think a better job can be done by others. I'm just saying that there's no way ColorDMD "insta-monopolized" the pinball machine display colorizing market with their patents.

    Somebody tried to do that same kind of thing with the gas-powered car over 100 years ago, and lost:
    http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/george-selden-patents-gas-powered-car

    #40 10 years ago

    also besides all that ColorDMD only has a US patent, DMD extender guy is in the UK, so if the DMD guy did add colorization and the colr dmd guys got their panties in a bunch they could try to get an import ban on DMD extenders but they would have a real hard time with that

    I will never buy a ColorDMD because of those threats they made to the DMD extender guy, to me that is the ultimate in lame to the community

    #41 10 years ago
    Quoted from flecom:

    I will never buy a ColorDMD because of those threats they made to the DMD extender guy, to me that is the ultimate in lame to the community

    What products do you buy? Because just about everyone in the pinball business protects their intellectual property. All the manufacturers of the machines in your collection certainly do (or do so now through new ownership, ie PPS).

    #42 10 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    What products do you buy? Because just about everyone in the pinball business protects their intellectual property. All the manufacturers of the machines in your collection certainly do (or do so now through new ownership, ie PPS).

    In this case I'd argue that we're dealing more with an individual component of a game, like a DMD, LED bulb, coil or something. Standard DMDs had a few manufacturers. There are at least 2 manufacturers of LED DMDs. There are a number of manufacturers of LED bulbs.

    There are even generic parts that are compatible across multiple manufacturer's games, like bulbs or DMDs.

    Imagine if one company laid claim to LED replacement bulbs and they were the only manufacturer. There would be no competition to drive prices down and encourage innovation. The community benefits from multiple companies doing similar things.

    I'm sure a gentleman's agreement or something could be arranged to discourage the same titles from being available in full color on "competing" products as far a colorization goes... But then again, if tools are released to the community, probably all bets are off.

    At the same time, if it was determined that colorization developed for DMDExtender could be made compatible with ColorDMD, and vice versa, so much the better.

    #43 10 years ago

    Also, for anyone interested, and since no one seems to want to provide a clear example of what's going on, and instead simply insist that I don't understand the concept, I think I've got an analogy that can be used to explain the colorization process and how it is able to skirt around copyright laws.

    Imagine I have a black and white comic strip. Let's say Garfield. I decide my Garfield comic strip needs to be updated with color and I'd like to be able to distribute my colorization without having to worry about copyrights, and permission, and royalties and all that. So I lay a transparency over the comic and color it up with translucent paints so that any line art and shading comes through. I lift my transparency off of the comic, and I've got a jumble of shapes that amounts my new original art, which is arguably not a derivative work when viewed on its own. I can now reproduce these transparencies and publish them as a "colorization" to be used in conjunction with Garfield that would have to be purchased separately.

    So ColorDMD would just be saving out these non-descript colored blobs that really only mean something when sitting on top of a DMD frame, but are themselves original art.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, and please provide an example if so.

    Thanks,
    Jim

    #44 10 years ago

    That would likely be contributory to a copyright infringement .. you are allowed to do things to blatently cause copyright infringement (i.e. contribute to) as well. Really it would be great to read a primer on copyright and trademark ...

    #45 10 years ago

    sorry .. that was 'you are not' ... lol

    #46 10 years ago
    Quoted from PPS:

    sorry .. that was 'you are not' ... lol

    You are able to edit a post with the edit button that should show up above your posts. Just FYI.

    #47 10 years ago
    Quoted from PPS:

    That would likely be contributory to a copyright infringement .. you are allowed to do things to blatently cause copyright infringement (i.e. contribute to) as well. Really it would be great to read a primer on copyright and trademark ...

    My nondescript colored blobs on transparencies aren't original enough for you?
    You'd still have to buy the original copyrighted material.

    #48 10 years ago
    Quoted from winteriscoming:

    Also, for anyone interested, and since no one seems to want to provide a clear example of what's going on, and instead simply insist that I don't understand the concept, I think I've got an analogy that can be used to explain the colorization process and how it is able to skirt around copyright laws.
    Imagine I have a black and white comic strip. Let's say Garfield. I decide my Garfield comic strip needs to be updated with color and I'd like to be able to distribute my colorization without having to worry about copyrights, and permission, and royalties and all that. So I lay a transparency over the comic and color it up with translucent paints so that any line art and shading comes through. I lift my transparency off of the comic, and I've got a jumble of shapes that amounts my new original art, which is arguably not a derivative work when viewed on its own. I can now reproduce these transparencies and publish them as a "colorization" to be used in conjunction with Garfield that would have to be purchased separately.
    So ColorDMD would just be saving out these non-descript colored blobs that really only mean something when sitting on top of a DMD frame, but are themselves original art.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, and please provide an example if so.
    Thanks,
    Jim

    Oooh! Good metaphor!

    Where's that popcorn eating gif when I need it?

    #49 10 years ago
    Quoted from PPS:

    That would likely be contributory to a copyright infringement .. you are allowed to do things to blatently cause copyright infringement (i.e. contribute to) as well. Really it would be great to read a primer on copyright and trademark ...

    I submit these arguments, taken from the ever-infallible wikipedia's entry on derivative work:

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    In Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc.,[9] the appellate court held that it was a fair use for owners of copies of video games, such as Super Mario Bros., to use Galoob's product the Game Genie to customize the difficulty or other characteristics of the game by granting a character more strength, speed, or endurance. Nintendo strongly opposed Galoob's product, allegedly because it interfered with the maintenance of the "Nintendo Culture," which Nintendo claimed was important to its marketing program.[10] The court held, among other things, that the fair use defense shielded Galoob's conduct. The court said that "a party who distributes a copyrighted work cannot dictate how that work is to be enjoyed. Consumers may use ... a Game Genie to enhance a Nintendo Game cartridge’s audiovisual display in such a way as to make the experience more enjoyable."

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A crucial factor in current legal analysis of derivative works is transformativeness, largely as a result of the Supreme Court's 1994 decision in Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, Inc. The Court's opinion emphasized the importance of transformativeness in its fair use analysis of the parody of "Oh, Pretty Woman" involved in the Campbell case. In parody, as the Court explained, the transformativeness is the new insight that readers, listeners, or viewers gain from the parodic treatment of the original work. As the Court pointed out, the words of the parody "derisively demonstrat[e] how bland and banal the Orbison [Pretty Woman] song" is.

    The modern emphasis of transformativeness in fair use analysis stems from a 1990 article by Judge Pierre N. Leval in the Harvard Law Review, "Toward a Fair Use Standard",[13] which the Court quoted and cited extensively in its Campbell opinion. In his article, Leval explained the social importance of transformative use of another's work and what justifies such a taking:

    I believe the answer to the question of justification turns primarily on whether, and to what extent, the challenged use is transformative. The use must be productive and must employ the quoted matter in a different manner or for a different purpose from the original. ...[If] the secondary use adds value to the original--if the quoted matter is used as raw material, transformed in the creation of new information, new aesthetics, new insights and understandings--this is the very type of activity that the fair use doctrine intends to protect for the enrichment of society.

    Transformative uses may include criticizing the quoted work, exposing the character of the original author, proving a fact, or summarizing an idea argued in the original in order to defend or rebut it. They also may include parody, symbolism, aesthetic declarations, and innumerable other uses.

    The concept, as Leval and the Campbell Court described it, developed in relation to fair use of traditional works: literary works, musical works, and pictorial works. But recently courts have extended this rationale to Internet and computer-related works. In such cases, as illustrated by Kelly v. Arriba Soft Corporation[14] and Perfect 10, Inc. v. Amazon.com, Inc.,[15] the courts find a use (such as that of thumbnails in an image search engine, for indexing purposes) transformative because it provides an added benefit to the public, which was not previously available and might remain unavailable without the derivative or secondary use.
    -------------------------------------------------------

    #50 10 years ago
    Quoted from winteriscoming:

    I submit these arguments, taken from the ever-infallible wikipedia's entry on derivative work:

    stop trying to make an educated and well thought argument you're on pinside!

    There are 116 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.

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