(Topic ID: 253917)

DIY: 'LISY', a replacement MPU for Gottlieb, Bally & Stern

By bontango

2 years ago


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    There are 993 posts in this topic. You are on page 20 of 20.
    #951 67 days ago
    Quoted from bontango:

    I have not tested them by myself, but did you also tried the roms from the 'pinmame 7digit bootleg' on IPDB?
    https://www.ipdb.org/files/1386/kissb.zip

    kissb.zip will use all 7 digits, but will randomly mute all but the "special" sounds for an entire ball.
    I also tried to run U6 from kissb.zip in conjunction with U2 from https://www.ipdb.org/files/1386/Bally_1979_Kiss_ROMs.zip and https://www.vpforums.org/index.php?app=downloads&showfile=5459 Neither U2 rom corrected the issue.

    kissc.zip (from vpforums.org) functions properly, but doesn't use the 7 digits, even though it says "7-digit Rev3 Free Play".

    Bally_1979_Kiss_ROMs.zip also functions properly, but obviously won't use the 7th digit.

    I haven't been able to run the patch from https://www.pinball4you.ch/okaegi/pro_soft.html
    It refuses to accept the U6 files that I feed it.
    Has anyone been able to run that patch?

    edit: I suppose I should also be asking if anyone has a 7-digit U6 file that works on $6 MILLION MAN, PLAYBOY, VOLTAN, SUPERSONIC, STAR TREK, KISS, or PARAGON.

    #952 67 days ago

    The "info.txt" in Olivers patch file says the resultant CRC for U6 after the patch becomes: C0FC5342 which matches the U6 in "kissb.zip" so it has the right Oliver file.

    You need to convert the original U1/U2 and U6 into 2732 files before you can apply Olivers patch. The first half of U6 2732 should be FF filled as the source.

    Are you sure the sound problem you experienced isn't something else?

    #953 67 days ago

    https://www.pinball4you.ch/okaegi/pro_d7.html

    You need the helper board unless the LISY board has this enabled already.

    The 'bootleg 7 digit' on ipdb is Oliver's rom. No idea what the kissc is supposed to be.

    #954 66 days ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    The "info.txt" in Olivers patch file says the resultant CRC for U6 after the patch becomes: C0FC5342 which matches the U6 in "kissb.zip" so it has the right Oliver file.
    You need to convert the original U1/U2 and U6 into 2732 files before you can apply Olivers patch. The first half of U6 2732 should be FF filled as the source.
    Are you sure the sound problem you experienced isn't something else?

    The batch file should modify the checksum of the resultant file (two different files have the same checksum). Unfortunately, that doesn't indicate identical files in kissb.zip.
    I did notice that the Oliver's patch LOG file mentions bly2732.zip so I tried it with .u2 & .u6 from that as well. https://arcarc.xmission.com/Pinball/Roms/Pinball/Bally/bly2732.zip

    I WAS able to run Oliver's patch on the modified U6 from the original Bally_1979_Kiss_ROMs.zip by adding blank space + U6 to get a 2732 file, then changing the file name to U6 (not U6.bin, U6.U6, U6.anything... just U6). I verified that the resultant file was identical to U6 from kissb.zip.

    Another oddity: Oliver says to use U2 from bly2732.zip, but kissb.zip has a different U2 file.

    I'll give Oliver's 720-3032D10.U6 (V4) a try now that I figured out how to use his patching tool.

    Quoted from slochar:

    https://www.pinball4you.ch/okaegi/pro_d7.html
    You need the helper board unless the LISY board has this enabled already.
    The 'bootleg 7 digit' on ipdb is Oliver's rom. No idea what the kissc is supposed to be.

    The LISY board has this embedded, and is enabled via jumper.
    The KISSc.zip was found on vpinforums, and may/maynot be applicable here... but I tried it anyway. It worked, but didn't enable the 7th digit.

    IMG_6220 (resized).jpg

    #955 66 days ago

    Welp, Here's the low-down:

    + Original ROMs work great.
    + 6-Digits,
    + No Sound Drop during a random ball in play.
    https://www.ipdb.org/files/1386/Bally_1979_Kiss_ROMs.zip

    + Oliver's Early Mod works fine.
    + 6-Digits,
    + No Sound Drop during a random ball in play.
    https://www.pinball4you.ch/okaegi/p-3032-f.zip (diy)

    + Oliver's 2nd Mod works fine.
    + 6-Digits (divided by 10, so 10pt registers as 1pt, 100pts registers as 10pts, etc.),
    + No Sound Drop during a random ball in play.
    https://www.pinball4you.ch/okaegi/p-parfd10.zip (diy)

    - Oliver's 3rd Mod doesn't.
    + 7-Digits,
    - Sound Drops for the duration of a random ball in play.
    https://www.pinball4you.ch/okaegi/p-3032-d7.zip (diy)
    https://www.ipdb.org/files/1386/kissb.zip (compiled)

    - VPin Mod File doesn't.
    - 6-Digits (says it should work with 7),
    + No Sound Drop during a random ball in play.
    https://www.vpforums.org/index.php?app=downloads&showfile=5459 (kissc.zip)

    All of these were tested with U2 from Marvin's bly2732 romset, as stated in Oliver's instructions.
    https://arcarc.xmission.com/Pinball/Roms/Pinball/Bally/bly2732.zip

    #956 66 days ago
    Quoted from TSB_:

    - Oliver's 3rd Mod doesn't.
    + 7-Digits,
    - Sound Drops for the duration of a random ball in play.

    Welp, I just tried it in emulation and after a monster first ball I lost sound on ball 2 and 3. So you're right, there's an issue with the "kissb" ROMset.
    I'll have a look into it.

    #957 66 days ago
    Quoted from TSB_:

    - Oliver's 3rd Mod doesn't.
    + 7-Digits,
    - Sound Drops for the duration of a random ball in play.

    There is indeed a bug, now here's the kicker. The bug is actually in Ballys code - it's just that circumstances never arise for it to be an issue with the factory 6 digit code. I can go into details but essentially the players scores are backed up in NVRAM and erroneously overwrite a sound status flag. The data written there due to the millions scoring causes the game to think the sound board is busy and stops issuing sound commands. It just so happens the factory 6 digit scoring always writes a score value that makes the sound status flag free to accept sound commands.

    So open the modified Kiss U2 ROM in a hex editor and make the changes at the following addresses:
    $0000: 8F ---> 8E
    $03DB: 54 ---> 55
    $04B6: 1E ---> 1F
    $04C8: 1E ---> 1F
    $061D: 94 ---> 92
    $0DFA: 1E ---> 1F
    $0E23: 1E ---> 1F
    $0FD6: 2C ---> 2A

    These mods essentially shifts the backup player scores up one position in NVRAM so the sound status flag is no longer trashed.

    If you want it to show a different version on power up, modifying the U6 ROM as below will change it from version 20 to 30 (sorry making it 21 is complicated).
    $0800: CE ---> BE
    $0807: 2F ---> 3F

    I haven't checked but the 7-digit scoring code is potentially also an issue with Paragon and Six Million Dollar Man.

    #958 66 days ago

    ...and I was about to start soldering up some 6-digit displays, thinking that it'd take forever to find a bug like that. lol
    Amazing job! I'll get a new rom in the KISS and give it a try!
    Did you use the U2 file in kissb.zip or bly2732.zip? (you mentioned 'modified', so I'm guessing kissb, but I thought I'd doublecheck)

    #959 66 days ago
    Quoted from TSB_:

    Did you use the U2 file in kissb.zip or bly2732.zip? (you mentioned 'modified', so I'm guessing kissb, but I thought I'd doublecheck)

    Yes, by modified I meant the U2 file in the kissb set.

    #960 66 days ago

    Hmm. My kissb U2 had
    $0800: 7A
    $0807: 27

    I modified them to match your suggestion (BE & 3F), and I'll give it a try.
    I wonder why mine was different.

    #961 66 days ago
    Quoted from TSB_:

    Hmm. My kissb U2 had
    $0800: 7A
    $0807: 27

    I modified them to match your suggestion (BE & 3F), and I'll give it a try.
    I wonder why mine was different.

    That version mod is for U6, not U2. if you make those changes to U2 it won't boot.

    #962 66 days ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    That version mod is for U6, not U2. if you make those changes to U2 it won't boot.

    lol, I was just about to correct my post when I noticed the "someone else has posted, would you like to refresh?"
    Thanks!! I'll give it a try.

    #963 65 days ago

    @botango and anyone else interested. Got my new 18f45k22I/P in, but it won't flash. I have a strong feeling I got a bad chip. The good news is I can at least boot into the simple flasher, and the webserver flasher, with the status leds working as they should.

    I've tried the simple flasher with the blank chip in the switches spot, flash jumpers all set. Once I go through the selection process, it flashes the status leds as if it's flashing, then gives me the error (red led).

    Tried the webhost flasher, uploaded file, chip in the switches spot, flash jumpers set. hit flash, and it gives a flash error.
    Tried again with the chip in the solenoid socket, and appropriate flash jumpers.

    I might order a pickit, provided I can find which one is compatible with this chip, just to test and see if I can write anything to this.

    Wasn't able to find any reputable sources with an 18f45k22I/P, but Microchip had an 18f45k22E/P, which the only difference seems to be the heat rating. I'll give this a shot when it comes in, unless of course I get a dire warning from you about the E/P.

    #964 65 days ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    There is indeed a bug, now here's the kicker. The bug is actually in Ballys code - it's just that circumstances never arise for it to be an issue with the factory 6 digit code. I can go into details but essentially the players scores are backed up in NVRAM and erroneously overwrite a sound status flag. The data written there due to the millions scoring causes the game to think the sound board is busy and stops issuing sound commands. It just so happens the factory 6 digit scoring always writes a score value that makes the sound status flag free to accept sound commands.
    So open the modified Kiss U2 ROM in a hex editor and make the changes at the following addresses:
    $0000: 8F ---> 8E
    $03DB: 54 ---> 55
    $04B6: 1E ---> 1F
    $04C8: 1E ---> 1F
    $061D: 94 ---> 92
    $0DFA: 1E ---> 1F
    $0E23: 1E ---> 1F
    $0FD6: 2C ---> 2A
    These mods essentially shifts the backup player scores up one position in NVRAM so the sound status flag is no longer trashed.
    If you want it to show a different version on power up, modifying the U6 ROM as below will change it from version 20 to 30 (sorry making it 21 is complicated).
    $0800: CE ---> BE
    $0807: 2F ---> 3F
    I haven't checked but the 7-digit scoring code is potentially also an issue with Paragon and Six Million Dollar Man.

    Woot! It appears to be working on original hardware, also.
    I now have kissd.zip in my arsenal (containing files labeled kiss2732v30.u2, 3032d7v30.u6, & License.pdf).
    Is there a way to get the update to ipdb.org for publication? Or is it fine to attach it here?

    #965 65 days ago
    Quoted from TSB_:

    Woot! It appears to be working on original hardware, also.

    Cool.

    Quoted from TSB_:

    I now have kissd.zip in my arsenal (containing files labeled kiss2732v30.u2, 3032d7v30.u6, & License.pdf).
    Is there a way to get the update to ipdb.org for publication? Or is it fine to attach it here?

    kissd already exists as the divide by 10 scoring version.
    First thing is to get Olivers blessing for a release. I will get in touch with those who know him.

    #966 65 days ago
    Quoted from knohbody:

    Tried the webhost flasher, uploaded file, chip in the switches spot, flash jumpers set. hit flash, and it gives a flash error.
    Tried again with the chip in the solenoid socket, and appropriate flash jumpers.

    yes, sounds like you have a bad PIC, or (for somewhat reason) your chips are already programmed in high voltage mode.
    If this is the case the integrated programmer cannot access the PIC anymore

    Quoted from knohbody:

    I might order a pickit, provided I can find which one is compatible with this chip, just to test and see if I can write anything to this.

    yes, best to get a pickit3 clone, which can erase the PIC even if it is programmed in high voltage mode.
    I made already a short doch how to programm PICs with pickit3: https://lisy.dev/pickit-3.html

    Quoted from knohbody:

    Wasn't able to find any reputable sources with an 18f45k22I/P, but Microchip had an 18f45k22E/P, which the only difference seems to be the heat rating. I'll give this a shot when it comes in, unless of course I get a dire warning from you about the E/P.

    E/P version are OK, as you said its only diff is the heat rating.
    I'm working on new code with PIC18F45K42 chip as a replacement, looks good so far ..
    But my integrated programmer does not support the k42 Chip, so the pickit3 (which supports both the K22&K42) is needed for this chip anyway

    #967 64 days ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    Cool.

    kissd already exists as the divide by 10 scoring version.
    First thing is to get Olivers blessing for a release. I will get in touch with those who know him.

    Ah, I figured that it was just a bally file change, as his code just had the v30 bits modified.
    Good to check with him, though.

    I couldn't find a kissd.zip anywhere.
    ~Bally_1979_Kiss_ROMs.zip (OEM)
    ~kiss.zip (PINMAME)
    ~kissb.zip (7-DIGIT BOOTLEG)
    ~kissc.zip (VPFORUM 7-DIGIT + FREEPLAY)
    ~kissp.zip (PROTOTYPE & PINMAME PROTOTYPE)

    #968 64 days ago
    Quoted from TSB_:

    Ah, I figured that it was just a bally file change, as his code just had the v30 bits modified.

    Good point. Anyway waiting to hear back.

    Quoted from TSB_:

    I couldn't find a kissd.zip anywhere.

    Below look familiar? It's supported in PinMAME. It actually has the same sound problem.. When the lowest digit of player one is '8' or higher at the start of a ball, sounds don't play.

    Kissd.png

    #969 64 days ago
    Quoted from bontango:

    yes, best to get a pickit3 clone, which can erase the PIC even if it is programmed in high voltage mode.
    I made already a short doch how to programm PICs with pickit3: https://lisy.dev/pickit-3.html

    Thanks, not sure how I missed that. Got a Pickit3 on the way. Hopefully get this back up and running soon. Thanks for all the help!

    #970 63 days ago

    I started to convert my PIC programms used in LISY1/35/80 to PIC type PIC18F45K42 as a replacement for my
    former standard PIC18F45K22 which become more and more difficult to purchase.
    LISY80 files are ready and reported to work (thx. to Cheddar for testing), more to follow
    have a look at my news section on lisy.dev for details https://lisy.dev/news.html
    and let me know in case of facing any problems (or in case of success, feedback welcome)

    #971 59 days ago
    Quoted from bontango:

    I started to convert my PIC programms used in LISY1/35/80 to PIC type PIC18F45K42 as a replacement for my
    former standard PIC18F45K22 which become more and more difficult to purchase.
    LISY80 files are ready and reported to work (thx. to Cheddar for testing), more to follow
    have a look at my news section on lisy.dev for details https://lisy.dev/news.html
    and let me know in case of facing any problems (or in case of success, feedback welcome)

    Got my 18f45k22-I/P programmed with the pic-kit. Looks like it needed to be erased. Looks like one of the switches in the drop targets shorted to something, still sorting that out, have both drop targets removed right now, but the rest of the game plays fine.

    I'll order a few of the 18f45K42s to test em out as well. I'll update when I get em in.

    Thanks!

    2 weeks later
    #972 43 days ago

    Perhaps already discussed in the thread but can also be other raspberry be used besides model Zero?

    Zero has become very hard to obtain so would be good to know if also other types will work. This will broaden the availability of parts.

    Thanks for any info

    #973 43 days ago
    Quoted from Rensh:

    Perhaps already discussed in the thread but can also be other raspberry be used besides model Zero?
    Zero has become very hard to obtain so would be good to know if also other types will work. This will broaden the availability of parts.
    Thanks for any info

    Iirc the other pi’s also worked. The zero just had a nice small footprint.

    I have a question, do the sys80 displays fit or work in a sys1? I have a roller disco I’d like to freshen up.

    #974 43 days ago

    I used a Pi4 to boot mine up for a test. Took some extended headers to work.
    I had a bad power supply fry 2 Zeros. What can be done to clamp down on the 5v source?

    #975 43 days ago
    Quoted from ThatOneDude:

    I used a Pi4 to boot mine up for a test. Took some extended headers to work.
    I had a bad power supply fry 2 Zeros. What can be done to clamp down on the 5v source?

    what power source, or psu do you have in your game?
    Is it rebuilt w/ caps etc. ?
    Have you tested the 5/12/x volt lines on the headers to see what is coming off?

    #976 43 days ago
    Quoted from northvibe:

    what power source, or psu do you have in your game?

    It's the 5v source. I forget the board name(A2?) off the top of my head. It spiked twice(>6v and >9v) and cooked the voltage chip on the zeros both times. I sold the game after that. :/

    #977 43 days ago
    Quoted from ThatOneDude:

    It's the 5v source. I forget the board name(A2?) off the top of my head. It spiked twice(>6v and >9v) and cooked the voltage chip on the zeros both times. I sold the game after that. :/

    And I bought it so I am looking for a solution going forward (even though I am going to replace that power supply)

    #978 43 days ago
    Quoted from ThatOneDude:It's the 5v source. I forget the board name(A2?) off the top of my head. It spiked twice(>6v and >9v) and cooked the voltage chip on the zeros both times. I sold the game after that. :/

    Quoted from Cheddar:

    And I bought it so I am looking for a solution going forward (even though I am going to replace that power supply)

    I have run a lisy, for years in a couple sys1’s with stock power boards, but I also did the big daddy rebuild on them.
    I would suggest getting lisy power supply, or rebuilding the original. It shouldn’t spike that much.

    #979 42 days ago
    Quoted from northvibe:

    I have run a lisy, for years in a couple sys1’s with stock power boards, but I also did the big daddy rebuild on them.
    I would suggest getting lisy power supply, or rebuilding the original. It shouldn’t spike that much.

    I've run lisy on several system 80s and 1s and never had it happen. A fuse or overvolt protection would be nice during the troubleshooting phase but doesn't have to be part of the board itself

    #980 42 days ago
    Quoted from Rensh:

    Perhaps already discussed in the thread but can also be other raspberry be used besides model Zero?
    Zero has become very hard to obtain so would be good to know if also other types will work. This will broaden the availability of parts.
    Thanks for any info

    Raspberry Pi 3A works great, quit cheap, faster and more available. I guess a Pi 3B works great too.

    #981 42 days ago
    Quoted from Cheddar:

    I've run lisy on several system 80s and 1s and never had it happen. A fuse or overvolt protection would be nice during the troubleshooting phase but doesn't have to be part of the board itself

    Yeah, always a nice thing to have some safety features.

    #982 41 days ago
    Quoted from northvibe:

    Yeah, always a nice thing to have some safety features.

    I already though about a crowbar for the next HW revision. As I do not have any experience with crowbars yet,
    anyone have a suggestion for me?

    btw: For System1 I have a 'GottFA1_PLuS' with integrated power supply https://lisy.dev/gottfa1_plus.html
    and for System80 I'm working on 'GottFA80_PLuS' which should be available in a month or so.

    Quoted from Rensh:

    Zero has become very hard to obtain so would be good to know if also other types will work.

    For latest versions ( PI2 & PI4 ) you need my LISY 'Test Image', PI3(A/B) works fine with both, standard and test Image.
    If you do not need WiFI (LISY_Control) you can also use the Pi-Zero without 'W'

    #983 41 days ago
    Quoted from bontango:

    I already though about a crowbar for the next HW revision. As I do not have any experience with crowbars yet,
    anyone have a suggestion for me?
    btw: For System1 I have a 'GottFA1_PLuS' with integrated power supply https://lisy.dev/gottfa1_plus.html
    and for System80 I'm working on 'GottFA80_PLuS' which should be available in a month or so.

    For latest versions ( PI2 & PI4 ) you need my LISY 'Test Image', PI3(A/B) works fine with both, standard and test Image.
    If you do not need WiFI (LISY_Control) you can also use the Pi-Zero without 'W'

    I think I have an example of a crowbar circuit that may work. Uses the same larger SCR that the Bally lamp driver used. I'll see if I can dig out the schematic.

    #984 41 days ago

    J

    Quoted from northvibe:

    Iirc the other pi’s also worked. The zero just had a nice small footprint.
    I have a question, do the sys80 displays fit or work in a sys1? I have a roller disco I’d like to freshen up.

    I used them in a Genie. They look awesome with blue led's and worked fine

    1 week later
    #985 31 days ago

    I have created a set of LISY1 hex-files for the PIC18F45K42 which can replace the hard to find PC18F45K22 PIC.
    https://lisy.dev/pic.html
    Still looking for testers for these AND for the already available LISY80 set.

    #986 30 days ago
    Quoted from bontango:

    I have created a set of LISY1 hex-files for the PIC18F45K42 which can replace the hard to find PC18F45K22 PIC.
    https://lisy.dev/pic.html
    Still looking for testers for these AND for the already available LISY80 set.

    Count me in. I have the chips.
    Mike

    1 week later
    #987 21 days ago

    lisy1 problem

    I got my Pickit 3 and tried to program my pics and keep getting a target not found error message on IPE. It appears that no power is going to the chip and I have adjusted the power as instructed in the pick3 instructions. Any one have this issue? Any help would be great.
    Mike

    #988 21 days ago
    Quoted from packie1:

    lisy1 problem
    I got my Pickit 3 and tried to program my pics and keep getting a target not found error message on IPE. It appears that no power is going to the chip and I have adjusted the power as instructed in the pick3 instructions. Any one have this issue? Any help would be great.
    Mike

    Can you just try programming the PIC's using the RPi and the simple flasher? That process seems to work well. Just went through that on a LISY1 build.

    #989 21 days ago
    Quoted from Robotworkshop:

    Can you just try programming the PIC's using the RPi and the simple flasher? That process seems to work well. Just went through that on a LISY1 build.

    I have 'K42' PICs. Ralf noted this...see below.

    Note 2: unfortunetaly the internal LISY programmer cannot programm the K42 PICs. Until this is resolved, you need to use the 'pickle' version of my DIY PIC programmer or a PICKIT3

    Not sure what you are referring to when you mentioned RPI?
    Mike

    #990 21 days ago
    Quoted from packie1:

    I have 'K42' PICs. Ralf noted this...see below.
    Note 2: unfortunetaly the internal LISY programmer cannot programm the K42 PICs. Until this is resolved, you need to use the 'pickle' version of my DIY PIC programmer or a PICKIT3
    Not sure what you are referring to when you mentioned RPI?
    Mike

    That makes sense. RPi was short for Raspberry Pi. I've just been using the built-in programmer but I haven't tried any other PIC chips. Still using ones that were originally specified for the board since I still had some on hand.

    #991 21 days ago

    Does it matter if we use a PIC18F45K42-I/P or a PIC18F45K42-E/P ?

    #992 20 days ago
    Quoted from PinMario:

    Does it matter if we use a PIC18F45K42-I/P or a PIC18F45K42-E/P ?

    Again When I was speaking with Ralf this is what he told me about both.....

    you can use both
    however it may be not possible to programm these direct with LISY board as with the old ones (simple lasher)
    as explained on my webside in this case you need my programmer OR PICKIt3

    Mike

    1 week later
    #993 8 days ago

    short 'chip shortage' update:
    1)
    I produced a set of hex files for PIC18F45K42 which can replace the K22s PICs in LISY35,
    you can find them in my repository here https://lisy.dev/swrep/LISY35/PIC/K42/
    only tested 'on the desk' so far, pls. let me know if you try them with LISY35 in a Bally pinball
    2)
    As Raspberry PIs are not available at the moment I'm working on an image for the "Banana PI M2 Zero"
    hope to have first results end of the month at the latest

    There are 993 posts in this topic. You are on page 20 of 20.

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