(Topic ID: 253917)

DIY: 'LISY', a replacement MPU for Gottlieb, Bally & Stern

By bontango

2 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 993 posts
  • 68 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 days ago by bontango
  • Topic is favorited by 84 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    View topic image gallery

    Kissd.png
    IMG_6220 (resized).jpg
    pasted_image (resized).png
    PXL_20220420_191415167.MP (resized).jpg
    lisy80_debug.pdf (PDF preview)
    lisy80_debug.pdf (PDF preview)
    20220325_170554 (resized).jpg
    20220325_170624 (resized).jpg
    20220318_014224 (1) (resized).jpg
    2022-03-04 13.44.28 (resized).jpg
    20220227_013431 (resized).jpg
    20220225_105202 (resized).jpg
    20220225_102434 (resized).jpg
    lisy_kit (resized).jpg
    pasted_image (resized).png
    pasted_image (resized).png

    There are 993 posts in this topic. You are on page 16 of 20.
    #751 7 months ago

    This feels a little like Christmas. I placed this order in 11/24 and received it today. I had it shipped DHL Priority as it was $2 more than the next fast shipping and much faster. The budget shipping was over 3 weeks.

    Now I wait for the parts to come inPXL_20211130_005444000 (resized).jpg

    #752 7 months ago
    Quoted from Cheddar:

    This feels a little like Christmas. I placed this order in 11/24 and received it today. I had it shipped DHL Priority as it was $2 more than the next fast shipping and much faster. The budget shipping was over 3 weeks.
    Now I wait for the parts to come in[quoted image]

    Ooohhh I would be interested in one of those as well.
    Mike

    #753 7 months ago
    Quoted from bontango:

    I did a quick check with LISY and the new "Pi Zero 2 W" https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-zero-2-w/
    It does NOT work with current (5.27-62) LISY image! Probably it only needs an kernel update.
    But as I don't think there is a big demand/need its not on the top of my list.

    latest news:
    I made an update to latest 'debian buster' kernel in LISY image and looks like Pi Zero 2 W is running fine
    Boot time with Zero 2 W is under 30 seconds! ( 45 seconds with a Zero W)
    For safety reasons I did split the LISY image in a 'stable' and a 'test' version.
    PI Zero 2 W is only supported in the test version!

    #754 6 months ago

    Xmas Day 2

    I need the .1 caps and 2 series resistors (that are populated on the lISY80 WTH). The smd version makes this easy
    PXL_20211130_232203479 (resized).jpgPXL_20211130_232201454 (resized).jpgPXL_20211130_232159106 (resized).jpg

    PXL_20211130_231854010 (resized).jpg

    #755 6 months ago

    Question about the PICs. Is the programming on the pics the same across all 3 platforms? I notice different labels on the images on the site. The reason I ask. I just got in a batch of LISY1 and LISY80 boards and I'd like to test them with a known good set of pics and PI.

    Thanks

    Update: The PIC page indicates the versions are different. https://lisy.dev/pic.html

    #756 6 months ago
    Quoted from Cheddar:

    Question about the PICs. Is the programming on the pics the same across all 3 platforms? I notice different labels on the images on the site. The reason I ask. I just got in a batch of LISY1 and LISY80 boards and I'd like to test them with a known good set of pics and PI.
    Thanks
    Update: The PIC page indicates the versions are different. https://lisy.dev/pic.html

    That's a good question but I doubt they are. I would expect you can use the LISY1 PIC chips on the through hole or surface mount versions but not on a LISY80 or 35. It is my understanding they are difference sine they help read the game selection DIP switch and also on the the LISY35 the game DIP switch settings.

    #757 6 months ago

    I just picked up a Lisy 1 from a seller on ebay. I put it in my Hulk and it works great.
    The only thing is I don't know how to change it from 3 balls to 5.

    20211203_112033 (resized).jpg
    #758 6 months ago

    Looks like you can do it from LisyControl in the dipswitches section. This will require you to setup the wifi in the ‘/lisy/lisy/wpa_supplicant.conf file. Or while you are in there you can modify the /lisy1/dips/default_lisy1_dips.csv file and set the dip switch that way.

    I recommend LisyControl as it really gives you a lot of options for troubleshooting if you need them. You can find details in the manual here: https://lisy.dev/media/files/lisy_user-manual_v5.27-62.pdf

    #759 6 months ago

    Does the white menu button work on the coin door? That was the "stock/default" way. I forgot if lisy1 accepts that.
    I thought there was a dipswitch for this but cannot find it in the manual. I don't even see a setting in the manual for changing via a setting. Cheddar do you see an actual setting?

    EDIT:
    section 10.7 dip switch
    switch edit 17 shows balls per game on or off (i assume on/off is 3 or 5)

    #760 6 months ago

    The Hulk manual shows the setting as Switch 9pasted_image (resized).png

    I believe the default dips file configs the name and value but doesn't apply the same to all pins

    And yes if the wifi is configured right pressing the diag button for 3 seconds will start LisyControl.

    #761 6 months ago
    Quoted from Cheddar:

    The Hulk manual shows the setting as Switch 9[quoted image]
    I believe the default dips file configs the name and value but doesn't apply the same to all pins
    And yes if the wifi is configured right pressing the diag button for 3 seconds will start LisyControl.

    nice! yeah, so either edit the file via the sd card on pc or boot up the wifi. But it is an easy edit. Good find

    #762 6 months ago

    Thanks guys for your help. I just went through the SD card and made the change there.

    #763 6 months ago

    Is there any better day than parts day?

    Now I just need to make the harness so I can test it2021-12-08 14.54.57 (resized).jpg

    #764 6 months ago

    Tested!PXL_20211210_004351859.MP (resized).jpg

    #765 6 months ago

    All new LISY displays in Eight Ball. And yes, it was the SDB board.

    Having the guy send me back the old one so I can dissect that LM323K.

    I strongly suspect that it is counterfeit.

    IMG_1121 (resized).jpg
    #766 6 months ago

    Happy to hear that my displays are working

    btw:
    a guy from german pinball forum 'flippermarkt' replaced the LM323 with a cheap step down modul from Aliexpress, works like a charm
    https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1258173179.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.4eb03c00hpD3DD&mp=1

    You can find the thread (in german) here
    https://www.flippermarkt.de/community/forum/threads/sdb-as-2518-22-hack.217601/

    pasted_image (resized).png
    #767 6 months ago

    Tip: for 80B you only need J2, J3 is not needed!

    #768 6 months ago

    I am continually impressed with this project and it's creator bontango. I'm setting up a LISY80 for a counterforce and I went to setup the lamp, switch and coil definitions for LISYControl and it looks like the Lamp and Switch definitions are already done. This was a huge amount of work for him to do! Any way I did the definition for the coils for Counterforce and to save someone a few minutes work here it is:
    filename 003_lisy80_coils.csv
    Coil;Description Line 1;Description Line 2
    0;Hole Kicker;01;
    1;Target Bank Reset;02;
    2;Left Coin Chute Counter;03;
    3;Right Coin Chute Counter;04;
    4;Target Bank Reset;05;
    5;Not Used;06;
    6;Center Coin Chute Counter;07;
    7;Knocker;08;
    8;Outhole;09;

    Thanks again bontango !

    #769 6 months ago
    Quoted from Cheddar:

    Any way I did the definition for the coils for Counterforce and to save someone a few minutes work here it is:

    Thank you, I have added your file to the LISY image, it will be available with the next update.

    Quoted from Cheddar:

    it looks like the Lamp and Switch definitions are already done. This was a huge amount of work for him to do!

    Many of the defintion files are from other users, I just collect them.

    If someone else have made definition files for LISY please provide them to me, so that I can add them to the LISY image.

    #770 6 months ago

    bontango Are the board / schmatic packages available for download in tool you drew them in? I wanted to tweak a few things on the PCB before having it made. Is the source for the PICs available?

    Do you need the sound board if the boards are equipped with a PI that has onboard sound?

    I'm getting ready to upgrade a Gottlieb Rock, which is an early 80B. Thanks for all your great work!

    #771 6 months ago
    Quoted from kingofl337:

    Are the board / schmatic packages available for download in tool you drew them in? I wanted to tweak a few things on the PCB before having it made. Is the source for the PICs available?

    You talking about LISY80? Yes, schematics are available for the 6.0.3 version
    https://lisy.dev/lisy80.html
    For 'historical reasons' the layout is ... well not optimal, but you should be able to find what you need

    Quoted from kingofl337:

    Do you need the sound board if the boards are equipped with a PI that has onboard sound?

    Yes, I had bad results with the internal PI soundboard, so I support the 'phat' version only
    Just to note that the internal sound solution is very flexibel, but it is not 'out of the box'. You need to create/change configs and provide soundfiles yourself.
    For a plug&play solution have a look at 'Gosof' https://lisy.dev/gosof80.html

    #772 6 months ago

    source for the PICs you can find some on my github https://github.com/bontango/LISY-PIC-code
    let me know if you need more ...

    #773 6 months ago

    Thank you for your response, I was on the site but didn't find the design package files. I found the gerber, bom and schematics which is technically enough but I'd have to re-link everyhing. What package did you use draw/layout the boards? KiCAD, Ultium or did you use the JLCPCB EasyEDA?

    I understand the solution, part of why I'm looking at the LISY80 as the sound on Rock/Rock Encoure is really a limit on the game. It doesn't have the best payfield to begin with, so the 80's audio leaves something to be desired. I feel if I add a more modern take on the sound mith mp3 music for the background and wav interaction audio it will really wake up the play experiance. Plus LISY will let me react to anything I want instead of the items programmed into the base game from.

    Thanks Again!

    #774 6 months ago

    I am having timing issues with chimes on the early system 1s. It involves a lot of fine grained tweaking to the throttle and clock speed options. Is it possible to expose these in LisyControl?

    Some additional findings

    With throttle at 1750 and clockscale at 100 I can get the coin and startup chime to play close to to the correct speed. The 500/5k scoring is a little slow but it can be tweaked. The problem with these settings is the 10 point chime isn't ringing. I think this is because the switch hits are occurring too fast to be detected at that clock scale.

    Can you provide any info on the interaction (if any) between those 2 settings?

    Has anyone else tried to dial this in for the chimes?

    Extra additional findings:
    I set throttle back to the default and dropped clockscale to 150 and my coin and start tune are slightly slow but really slow. The switches seems mostly responsive on the bench. I'll dial this in and pop it in the machine and see how well it works.

    #775 6 months ago
    Quoted from Cheddar:

    Is it possible to expose these in LisyControl?

    It is, but I'm not a web programmer so it will take some time for me to implement

    Quoted from Cheddar:

    Can you provide any info on the interaction (if any) between those 2 settings?

    Will try:
    - throttle is a value which I 'invented' to adjust the different CPU speeds to LISY and the current emulated pinball. I use for that the timing
    of the switch matrix which has a fixed refresh value. Each time pinmame refreshs the switch matrix I check if the time passed is correct
    and just put in a small delay if not.
    - clockscale is a value internal to pinmame which adjust the speed of the emulation in general ( emulated CPU clock speed)

    So changing the throttle will NOT change for example the pulstime for ONE chime, because the delay is inserted after the ON/OFF commands for the solenoid, but will change the time between different chimes. Pulstime for chimes can only be adjusted with clockscale.

    Hope it makes sense?

    Quoted from Cheddar:

    With throttle at 1750 and clockscale at 100 I can get the coin and startup chime to play close to to the correct speed.

    I checked my mails, another user had almost same settings for Cleopatra ( throttle at 1750 and clockscale at 110 ).
    I may change the defaults for chime games in LISY in the next release

    #776 6 months ago
    Quoted from kingofl337:

    What package did you use draw/layout the boards? KiCAD, Ultium or did you use the JLCPCB EasyEDA?

    Also for 'historical reasons' I do use TARGET3001 for my layouts https://www.ibfriedrich.com/en/index.html

    I started many years ago with the free version of Target and now I'm used to it.
    It has some drawbacks but if you know them it is a good product with great support.

    That saying you need to buy a license to be able to read my 'Target' files.

    #777 6 months ago
    Quoted from bontango:

    It is, but I'm not a web programmer so it will take some time for me to implement

    I am a web programmer and I am willing to help

    Great information in this post. I will try the Cleo chime settings and let you know. I can also try the same settings in a sinbad.

    #778 6 months ago
    Quoted from bontango:

    Also for 'historical reasons' I do use TARGET3001 for my layouts https://www.ibfriedrich.com/en/index.html
    I started many years ago with the free version of Target and now I'm used to it.
    It has some drawbacks but if you know them it is a good product with great support.
    That says you need to buy a license to be able to read my 'Target' files.

    It seems the PCB-POOL.com has a free unlimited version of Target3001 I'd like to try if I could get access to the board files.
    It's junk they completely crippled any kind of export.

    Your version should have the option to export to Eagle which is more portable to other platforms.

    Have you considered setting up a Patrion/Paypal/Venmo so people could reward you for your time and effort?

    #779 6 months ago
    Quoted from kingofl337:

    Your version should have the option to export to Eagle which is more portable to other platforms.

    Have you considered setting up a Patrion/Paypal/Venmo so people could reward you for your time and effort?

    Yes, there is an option for eagle export. I did that for a few users but from the feedback looks like importing them in Eagle is not an easy task.
    Its not about earning money, but I'm a bit hesitant to put the eagle exports on my website.
    What are you planing to do? If you have ideas for improvements let me know and I will try to implement them, with this all users can benefit.

    #780 6 months ago
    Quoted from Cheddar:

    I am a web programmer and I am willing to help

    Sounds good, as at the moment it is a 'one man show'
    You find the source code on my github https://github.com/bontango/lisy-src-5.x/tree/master/src/lisy/control
    ( php files not included here) and in the LISY image.
    Login with user pi ( pwd lisy80 ) and go to /home/pi/lisy/src/lisy/control

    Take a look and send me a PM if you think you can implement additional functions.
    However when you are saying you are a web programmer you may want to put all my stuff
    into the bin and start from scratch ...

    #781 6 months ago
    Quoted from bontango:

    I checked my mails, another user had almost same settings for Cleopatra ( throttle at 1750 and clockscale at 110 ).
    I may change the defaults for chime games in LISY in the next release

    OK here is my findings on joker poker to get the correct chime timing:
    On PZW
    Throttle: 1750
    Clockscale: 110

    On PZ2
    Throttle: 1750
    Clockscale: 80

    #782 6 months ago

    bontango : In my Black hole with Gottfa80 and Gosof with US ROMs, the "wind" sound when entering lower playfield stops if speech is activated. It does not resume when speech is finished as it seems it does on original hardware.
    Is this a fault on my card .. ?

    #783 6 months ago

    I want to share some system 1 settings for Freeplay.
    I have the dips set 1 on, 2-4 off, 5 on, 6-8 off.
    This gives 9 credits per coin drop.
    I have display credits on (13).
    Match Feature on (10).
    Game Mode Replay (11).
    Max Credits set to 15 (16 & 17 on).
    High score awards 3 replays on (22).
    I have the coin up tune on so you can hear when the credits are added (23).

    Then I have Freeplay set on the board. Pressing the start button for 2+ seconds simulates the coin drop and adds 9 credits. It appears the game will start a game prior to the credit if their are any so this works best when there are zero credits.

    Finally I set the replay scores on Tests 7, 8, & 9.

    This has removed all extra balls except those earned through the target. All scores and specials are a replay.

    I am using these settings on joker poker

    #784 6 months ago

    What's the C5 value for the Bally 6 digit display (BOM does not list)? Is it the same 10nF in the the 7 digit bom?

    #785 6 months ago
    Quoted from Pinash:

    What's the C5 value for the Bally 6 digit display (BOM does not list)? Is it the same 10nF in the the 7 digit bom?

    Description
    50V 10nF X7R ±10% 0805 Multilayer Ceramic Capacitors MLCC - SMD/SMT ROHS
    Manufacturer
    Samsung Electro-Mechanics
    Mfr. Part #
    CL21B103KBANNNC
    LCSC Part #
    C1710
    Package
    0805

    But I have used 10nf axial caps without trouble.

    #786 6 months ago
    Quoted from pb456:

    Description
    50V 10nF X7R ±10% 0805 Multilayer Ceramic Capacitors MLCC - SMD/SMT ROHS
    Manufacturer
    Samsung Electro-Mechanics
    Mfr. Part #
    CL21B103KBANNNC
    LCSC Part #
    C1710
    Package
    0805
    But I have used 10nf axial caps without trouble.

    I was going to go axial (or possibly a radial with bent legs)

    https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CCA-0.01uF-100V

    I know up-rating capacitor voltage is generally ok, but just want a double check that the above will work.

    Thanks!

    #787 6 months ago
    Quoted from Pinash:

    I was going to go axial (or possibly a radial with bent legs)
    https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CCA-0.01uF-100V
    I know up-rating capacitor voltage is generally ok, but just want a double check that the above will work.
    Thanks!

    Wait I think I have a ton of those. Let me get home and check the bag.

    Update: I have 1000 .1uf 50V caps. These are the ones that go across the power for ics. I'd be happy to send 100 for the cost of shipping. They say 104 on them and are Radial

    #788 6 months ago
    Quoted from Cheddar:

    Wait I think I have a ton of those. Let me get home and check the bag.
    Update: I have 1000 .1uf 50V caps. These are the ones that go across the power for ics. I'd be happy to send 100 for the cost of shipping. They say 104 on them and are Radial

    Thanks for the offer! Is upping the capacitance by x10 have any effect? I don't think I need 100, but I'd certainly take some off your hands.

    #789 6 months ago

    100nf/.1uf is what's used on the Lisy1/80 and Godi180 boards. In all cases these decoupling caps go from gnd to 5V on the ics and filter hf signals. From what I understand there is a huge leeway for this application based upon the supply voltage.

    Here's an article on the subject that explains what I didn't really understand before I read it: https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/capacitors/application-examples

    In the end bontango can weigh in and let us know which can be used on the Bally display.

    #790 6 months ago
    Quoted from Zigzagzag:

    In my Black hole with Gottfa80 and Gosof with US ROMs, the "wind" sound when entering lower playfield stops if speech is activated. It does not resume when speech is finished as it seems it does on original hardware.
    Is this a fault on my card .. ?

    had some trouble with the BH 'wind', but though it was solved in latest release.
    What HW & SW combination with Gosof do you use?

    #791 6 months ago
    Quoted from Pinash:

    I know up-rating capacitor voltage is generally ok, but just want a double check that the above will work.

    C5 on 7-digit ( which is C4 on 6digit) should be a 10nF cap as in this case the value determine
    the clock speed generated by the NE555 chip which I use for 'diming'
    It does not harm if you try a 100nF part but could result in not being able to dim your displays
    in the same range as you do with a 10nF ...
    Please let me know if you give it a try

    #792 6 months ago
    Quoted from bontango:

    had some trouble with the BH 'wind', but though it was solved in latest release.
    What HW & SW combination with Gosof do you use?

    I ordered from JLCPCB on September 23rd - it says "gosof80_2_1_1_Y16" in the order list.
    I used firmware "GOSOF80_HW2.1.1_v0.2" - I see there is a v0.6 on your site, I'll try updating.

    #793 6 months ago
    Quoted from Zigzagzag:

    I ordered from JLCPCB on September 23rd - it says "gosof80_2_1_1_Y16" in the order list.
    I used firmware "GOSOF80_HW2.1.1_v0.2" - I see there is a v0.6 on your site, I'll try updating.

    Updating to 0.6 didn't help, the wind sound still stops after any speech on the lower level.
    If there is no speech on the lower level, the wind sound continues until the ball is ejected to the upper level.

    I also tried to set attract mode speech to every 10 seconds (see attachment).
    I can see D1 on the Gosof board light up about every 10 seconds but no speech.

    Screenshot from 2021-12-28 22-14-32 (resized).png
    #794 6 months ago
    Quoted from bontango:

    C5 on 7-digit ( which is C4 on 6digit) should be a 10nF cap as in this case the value determine
    the clock speed generated by the NE555 chip which I use for 'diming'
    It does not harm if you try a 100nF part but could result in not being able to dim your displays
    in the same range as you do with a 10nF ...
    Please let me know if you give it a try

    bontango Sorry for the confusion, I am looking for the value of C5 for the bally 6 digit display. Thanks for your help!

    #795 6 months ago
    Quoted from Pinash:

    bontango Sorry for the confusion, I am looking for the value of C5 for the bally 6 digit display. Thanks for your help!

    I also apologize since I introduced a lot of noise into the conversation offering the wrong part.

    #796 6 months ago
    Quoted from Pinash:

    bontango Sorry for the confusion, I am looking for the value of C5 for the bally 6 digit display. Thanks for your help!

    https://www.jameco.com/z/EA10016H613-R-Jameco-Valuepro-Capacitor-Axial-100-uF-16VDC-20-85C-6x12-5mm_199188.html

    These are what I have used for C5 on both 6 & 7 digit displays.

    #797 6 months ago
    Quoted from Zigzagzag:

    Updating to 0.6 didn't help, the wind sound still stops after any speech on the lower level.
    If there is no speech on the lower level, the wind sound continues until the ball is ejected to the upper level.

    OK, need to check ...

    Quoted from Zigzagzag:

    I also tried to set attract mode speech to every 10 seconds (see attachment).
    I can see D1 on the Gosof board light up about every 10 seconds but no speech.

    This is a 'known bug' at the moment with Gosof. On games which have speech in attract mode the speech
    is not played, games with sounds in attract mode are OK.
    Will try to solve this together with the bug above

    #798 6 months ago
    Quoted from bontango:

    OK, need to check ...

    This is a 'known bug' at the moment with Gosof. On games which have speech in attract mode the speech
    is not played, games with sounds in attract mode are OK.
    Will try to solve this together with the bug above

    Awesome ! I really appreciate your work here - I have Gottfa80 running in 3 machines and am starting work on a F2K with Lisy35 now. Never would have been able to do so much without your contributions - keep it up !

    ... and please let me know if there's anything I can do to help.

    #799 5 months ago

    I have now assembled my Flight 2000 and have it booting with Lisy35 SMD.

    According to the lisy_35_displays.php it says "This game has 5 display with 6 digits".
    But Flight 2000 has 4 x 7 + 1 x 6 display.
    So now the first digit of the 7 digit displays is stuck on at all times.
    I know this is not a display fault - new boards from pinballsolutions.eu, and they behave correctly during boot.
    Is this a setting somewhere ?

    I have a pHat sound card (from https://lisy.dev/phat-soundboard.html) which seems to be detected : "card 0: sndrpihifiberry [snd_rpi_hifiberry_dac], device 0: HifiBerry DAC HiFi pcm5102a-hifi-0 [HifiBerry DAC HiFi pcm5102a-hifi-0]"
    The sound settings page says : "error: no sound opts file; sound init failed".
    I assume I will have to record my own sounds using PinMame and place them on the SD-card as described in the manual - or perhaps somebody already has done this and is willing to share their files ?

    #800 5 months ago

    I had a request for a Robo War dip file

    file name: 055_lisy80_dips.csv

    contents:
    Switch;ON_or_OFF;comment ( Robo War )
    1;OFF;Left coin chute
    2;ON;Left coin chute
    3;OFF;Left coin chute
    4;OFF;Left coin chute
    5;ON;Left coin chute
    6;OFF;High games to date control ( ON -> Reset H.G. #2-#5 on power off )
    7;ON;Attract mode sound
    8;OFF;Auto percentage control
    9;OFF;Right coin chute
    10;ON;Right coin chute
    11;OFF;Right coin chute
    12;OFF;Right coin chute
    13;ON;Right coin chute
    14;OFF;Coin chute L and R control ( On - Same / Off - Separate )
    15;ON;Maximum Credits
    16;ON;Maximum Credits
    17;OFF;Center coin chute
    18;ON;Center coin chute
    19;OFF;Center coin chute
    20;OFF;Center coin chute
    21;ON;Center coin chute
    22;OFF;Playfield Special ( On - Xtra / OFF - Special )
    23;ON;Highest game to date awards
    24;ON;Highest game to date awards
    25;ON;Balls/Game (On - 3 / Off - 5)
    26;ON;Match
    27;OFF;Replay Limit (On - 1 / Off - No Limit)
    28;OFF;Novelty (On - Score 500K instead of Xtra & Special / Off - Normal)
    29;ON;Game mode ( ON - Xtra / OFF - Replay )
    30;ON;3rd Coin chute credit control
    31;ON;Playfield special control
    32;ON;Multiplier control

    There are 993 posts in this topic. You are on page 16 of 20.

    Reply

    Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

    Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

    Donate to Pinside

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, become a Pinside+ member!