(Topic ID: 233493)

Dixieland EM Bingo 1979 - scoring problem


By carniello

4 months ago



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unit (resized).JPG
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Switch E Search Index Coil (resized).jpg
schem (resized).jpg

#1 4 months ago

Ok, repairing this game. Sat for a long time. Many problems and finally making progress.

If I have three in a row on all cards, it will only score on cards 1, 3, and 5.
If I have three in a row on cards 1 3 5 it works right.
If I have three in a row on cards 2 4 6 it works right.

The problem is common with all cards and search disks.

I see what is happening. It will score 4 for the three in a row on card one, but it takes time for that scoring cam to come full circle around. By the time it finds three in a row on card 2 ( the scoring cam has not reached full circle) it pulses the replay counter disk #2 for card two (no replays awarded). The N.O. contact on CAM 8 is what causes this. I believe the problem is the circuit that this contact is in. I cannot find it.

#2 4 months ago

Does this only happen when choosing to score regular replays? What happens on double or nothing play? It sounds sort of like a diode problem to me, especially if the replay counter is pulsing without choosing regular/double or nothing on that card.

Another question: does the backglass show that you've already collected? What happens if you press the c button again after collecting on the odd cards? If the replay counter has stepped once for each of the cards, then you should not be prompted or accrue any more replays.

#3 4 months ago

Does this only happen when choosing to score regular replays?
Yes.

What happens on double or nothing play?
If I win a double or nothing, it misses the next card (says Its a normal win though- "replay counter disk" is plused)
If I lose a double or nothing. it works correctly on the next card.

It sounds sort of like a diode problem to me, especially if the replay counter is pulsing without choosing regular/double or nothing on that card.
The first card that wins, I press regular button.The "replay cams index coil" engerizes and scores 4 replays and that cam still has about 3/4 revolution to
complete. The search wiper continues to move and finds the bingo on next card. It stops there (while that replay cam is still moving)and then that N.O.
contact on cam 8 gets pulsed and advances "replay counter disk #2 (scores a normal win on that card)

Another question: does the backglass show that you've already collected? What happens if you press the c button again after collecting on the odd cards? If the replay counter has stepped once for each of the cards, then you should not be prompted or accrue any more replays.
If I hit the c button again, I do not collect anymore. The cards that miss have their "replay counter" pulsed (and shows a win).

I also noticed that If I have wins on card 2 and 3; card 3 misses on collecting regular (and its "replay counter" is pulsed).
I also noticed that If I have wins on card 4 and 5; card 3 misses on collecting regular (and its "replay counter" is pulsed).

Its all because that contact on cam 8 gets pulsed.

If I hold the search wiper after I win on one card, and let that cam finish it revolution, it works fine.

#4 4 months ago

Ok, I follow you now. I'll be at a computer tomorrow where I can review the schematic/manual.

#5 4 months ago

Needs adjustment what i gather is its its stepping up other counters

#6 4 months ago

The switch in question is at G-16 on the schem. It is the only thing that needs to close in that circuit in order to step the counters. Are your search discs clean? Are they stopping at the right position?

#7 4 months ago

The switch in question is at G-16 on the schem.
Yes, C.U. Cam #8 (X4). Thats pulses causing premature scoring

It is the only thing that needs to close in that circuit in order to step the counters. Are your search discs clean?
Yes.

Are they stopping at the right position?
Yes.

If the "replay cam" finishes its 360 degree rotation before the machine finds the bingo, game works fine.
I will update tomorrow.

schem (resized).jpg
#8 4 months ago

The problem you describe occurs on back to back wins on cards 1&2, 3&4 or 5&6 or if as you say wins on all six cards. Look at switch E on the Replay Cams Index coil. The only time Switch E should be closed is when the coil is fully energized. When the cams are in the roll-over position (which is where they are shown right now with the power off) Switch E needs to be open. I've attached a picture of what this should look like. Notice Switch E is open in the photo. The cams have been stopped right after scoring 4 replays by shutting the game off immediately after it had scored 4 replays. This is the ideal position to adjust the switch. The blade that needs to be adjusted looks will likely be the one with the blue w/yellow tracer wire. This is important because when the cam returns home switch E will be open and appear normal. So, by stopping the cam by shutting off the game after 4 credits are registered, the Replay Cams are neither Home nor Energized (They are in the roll-over position). If this switch is closed while the cam is in this state then this is the problem.

Switch E Search Index Coil (resized).jpg

#9 4 months ago
ReplayCamsIndex (resized).jpg
#10 4 months ago

The problem you describe occurs because the machine cannot score back to back wins on cards 1-2 or 3-4 or 5-6 and that’s exactly what your Dixie is trying to do. So lets say you have wins on cards 1&2. It will score properly on card 1 and then step up the Replay counter on card 2 without adding any credits to the score meter. Look at switch E on the Replay Cams Index unit. The only time Switch E should be closed is when the coil is fully energized and should be open not only in the Home position but ALSO in the Roll-Over position. I've attached a photo of what this should look like. Notice Switch E is open. When the cams are in the roll-over position (which is where they are shown in the photo) switch E must to be open. To take the picture, the cams have been stopped right after scoring 4 replays by shutting the game off immediately after it had scored the 4th replay from a three-in-a-row win. This is the ideal position and way to adjust the switch. The blade that needs to be adjusted will likely be the one with the blue w/yellow tracer wire going to it. This is important because when the cam returns home switch E will be open and appear normal. So, by stopping the cam by shutting the game off after 4 credits are registered, the Reply Cams will be in the roll-over position. If switch E is closed in the Roll-Over position then this is the problem.

#11 4 months ago

it's not clear exactly what CU 10 is doing. When the replay cams are locked, is:
1] the 10 stack is lifted on the cam lobe and switch 10 is closed. Switch 10 only opens after 20% of replay cam rotation
2] the 10 stack about to be lifted and switch 10 will open as soon as it is, then stay open for 20% of cam rotation and close the rest of the time

the timing diagram implies [2], but almost every bingo does [1]. In case [1], the game cannot detect another win until the replay cams are homed (or close enough to home to not generate more pulses to replay counters on most games).

in 29REO's scenario, the game is detecting and paying a win, but no credits are added because neither the regular win relay nor the double win relay #2 are powered. If you hold the R button down the whole time with a win on cards 1 and 2, you should get some credits for the card 2 win - tho perhaps not the right amount as it depends on where the replay cams are when the win is detected.

once ya get that going, I'm curious if the following works:
1] shoot four balls and set up a 3-in-line winner
2] shoot the 5th ball, but grab it and leave it out for the moment
3] push C button and R button to collect a regular win
4] drop 5th ball in a hole to make the collected 3-in-line into a 4-in-line win
5] push C button. Does it let you try for double or nothing?

#12 4 months ago
Quoted from baldtwit:no credits are added because neither the regular win relay nor the double win relay #2 are powered. If you hold the R button down the whole time with a win on cards 1 and 2, you should get some credits for the card 2 win - tho perhaps not the right amount as it depends on where the replay cams are when the win is detected.

If you were to place the balls in 14, 15, 20, 21, & 22 you will register a 3-in-a-row win on all six cards. When you start the Search Cycle, a properly working game will score on cards 1,3 & 5 and then stop. You will have to start the search cycle again to collect on cards 2,4,& 6. The game cannot score back to back wins on the same search unit (1&2, 3&4 or 5&6) during the same Search Cycle. Switch E on the Replay Cams Index is responsible for this. If the switch is improperly set (Closed during the roll-over portion of the cycle after scoring a win) then the game will attempt to score the next win as it normally should but it will have "Run out of room" due to mechanical limitations. The result is that it will step up the next card unit but the player will be "cheated" out of the replays as the machine cannot register them at that point. Switch E should only be closed when the coil is energized and then the game will register back to back wins properly, albeit on seperate search cycles. If not, the game will act as I described.

#13 4 months ago
Quoted from 29REO:

The game cannot score back to back wins on the same search unit

that is not necessarily true. The circuits should prevent detecting a win when the replay cams are not at the home position (locked or not...you just need CU 10 closed), but it's possible for the replay cams to reach home before the search wipers have spun around to the win on the second card. If that happens, the win on the second card can pay immediately and correctly.

in other words, whether a back-to-back payout is possible depends where on the first and second card the wins are detected and how far the replay cams have turned when the first card payout ends.

larger payouts usually mean it's more likely the replay cams are closer to home when the payout if over.

Quoted from 29REO:

If the switch is improperly set (Closed during the roll-over portion of the cycle after scoring a win) then the game will attempt to score the next win as it normally should but it will have "Run out of room" due to mechanical limitations. The result is that it will step up the next card unit but the player will be "cheated" out of the replays as the machine cannot register them at that point.

pedantically, the general issue on all bingos with detecting a win when the replay cams have not homed first is you can get paid the wrong amount.

the bingo machines are expecting payouts to happen with cam switch timing starting at the left edge of the timing diagram. That guarantees the replay counters step after fixed numbers of credits are added to the replay register.

when switch E is misadjusted, payout can start anywhere in timing chart.

since Dixieland never uses cam 7 switches to step the replay counter (cam 7 is the one making the pulses to step the replay register), it's a crapshoot how many credits would be added to the replay register before the replay counter stepped the first time. Most likely not enough and you'd get a short payout.

games with double or nothing add the complication that the regular or double win relay needs to be powered for any credits to be added to the replay register. On a d/n game one of those relays must be powered for the replay cams to release. That's why I suggested holding down the R button ... it'll immediately power the regular win relay when the win is detected and you will see credits added.

anyway, the idea was to show that the issue was not lack of credits being added or the replay counter on the second card stepping, the problem is what 29REO said about the switch E adjust.

the regular light coming on was another red herring. That's a side effect of the replay counter stepping up. It's just a quirk of the design that you don't need the regular win relay to be powered to turn on the regular win light.

if you're not one of the 5 people in the world that find the gory details interesting, just ignore anything I said and do what 29REO said

#14 4 months ago

The problem you describe occurs on back to back wins on cards 1&2, 3&4 or 5&6 or if as you say wins on all six cards. Look at switch E on the Replay Cams Index coil. The only time Switch E should be closed is when the coil is fully energized. When the cams are in the roll-over position (which is where they are shown right now with the power off) Switch E needs to be open. I've attached a picture of what this should look like. Notice Switch E is open in the photo. The cams have been stopped right after scoring 4 replays by shutting the game off immediately after it had scored 4 replays. This is the ideal position to adjust the switch. The blade that needs to be adjusted looks will likely be the one with the blue w/yellow tracer wire. This is important because when the cam returns home switch E will be open and appear normal. So, by stopping the cam by shutting off the game after 4 credits are registered, the Replay Cams are neither Home nor Energized (They are in the roll-over position). If this switch is closed while the cam is in this state then this is the problem.

YES! With that switch adjusted properly, it score correctly on card 1 but misses card 2 (it does NOT pulse card two replay counter). I did read that on the schematic and adjusted it that way but it would never see a win on card two. I would have to hit the "C" button to collect on card 2.

#15 4 months ago

it's not clear exactly what CU 10 is doing. When the replay cams are locked, is:
1] the 10 stack is lifted on the cam lobe and switch 10 is closed. Switch 10 only opens after 20% of replay cam rotation ---YES!
2] the 10 stack about to be lifted and switch 10 will open as soon as it is, then stay open for 20% of cam rotation and close the rest of the time----NO!

the timing diagram implies [2], but almost every bingo does [1]. In case [1], the game cannot detect another win until the replay cams are homed (or close enough to home to not generate more pulses to replay counters on most games).

YES, the diagram does implies 2.

in 29REO's scenario, the game is detecting and paying a win, but no credits are added because neither the regular win relay nor the double win relay #2 are powered. If you hold the R button down the whole time with a win on cards 1 and 2, you should get some credits for the card 2 win - tho perhaps not the right amount as it depends on where the replay cams are when the win is detected.

NO CREDITS on card 2. Since I adjusted that switch E on "replay cams index" it will not recongize a win on card 2, so hence no replays at all.

once ya get that going, I'm curious if the following works:
1] shoot four balls and set up a 3-in-line winner
2] shoot the 5th ball, but grab it and leave it out for the moment
3] push C button and R button to collect a regular win
4] drop 5th ball in a hole to make the collected 3-in-line into a 4-in-line win
5] push C button. Does it let you try for double or nothing?

YES.

Also, If I have a card 1 and 2 winner and try to double on card one and get nothing, card 2 scores perfect.

#16 4 months ago

If you were to place the balls in 14, 15, 20, 21, & 22 you will register a 3-in-a-row win on all six cards. When you start the Search Cycle, a properly working game will score on cards 1,3 & 5 and then stop. You will have to start the search cycle again to collect on cards 2,4,& 6. The game cannot score back to back wins on the same search unit (1&2, 3&4 or 5&6) during the same Search Cycle. Switch E on the Replay Cams Index is responsible for this. If the switch is improperly set (Closed during the roll-over portion of the cycle after scoring a win) then the game will attempt to score the next win as it normally should but it will have "Run out of room" due to mechanical limitations. The result is that it will step up the next card unit but the player will be "cheated" out of the replays as the machine cannot register them at that point. Switch E should only be closed when the coil is energized and then the game will register back to back wins properly, albeit on seperate search cycles. If not, the game will act as I described.

YES. That is the way the game works. I did not know this is normal. I assumed that Bally designed the game to score back to back to back to back to back to back wins.

#17 4 months ago

I justed watched a video of a Dixieland Bingo. Game had a winners on cards 1,2 and 4. Game would NOT collect back to back wins on card 1 and 2.

I had this game fixed 2 weeks ago (adjusted properly) and miss adjusted that switch E to compensate.
I appreciate all the help. THANKS!

#18 4 months ago
Quoted from carniello:

I justed watched a video of a Dixieland Bingo. Game had a winners on cards 1,2 and 4. Game would NOT collect back to back wins on card 1 and 2.

The likelihood of detecting a back-to-back win is small. One of your best chances is something like 14-21-24-12-anything, with the red diagonals on card 2 enabled.

that would pay card 1 at search position 45 and card 2 at search position 8. The sequence would be:

- search wipers 1-2 released and indexed/stopped at position 45 (the wipers scan from position 50 thru position 1 and lock back at 50)

- replay cams release after winning a d/n or pushing R

- the payout will end when the replay cams turn 1/4 of a revolution for a regular win or 1/2 revolution for a double win

- when the right payout is reached, the search wipers are released and are turning at the same rpm as the replay cams. It's now a race whether the replay cams reach their home position and lock before the search wipers get around to row 8 (travel 37 positions). For a doubled win, should be no problem and you'd get a back-to-back pay. For a regular win, the replay cams probably aren't closer than 37 positions to home so that win won't be detected.

the key to all this is the race after the first payout is over when both the search wipers and replay cams are moving at the same rate. If the replay cams are closer to home than the distance between the first and second wins, you can detect a back-to-back win in the same scan cycle.

hopefully that explains also why a back-to-back win detects all the time if you lose a d/n play on the first card. Since no payout is needed, the replay cams are not released. It's pretty easy to win a race when the distance you need to travel is zero

#19 4 months ago
Quoted from baldtwit:hopefully that explains also why a back-to-back win detects all the time if you lose a d/n play on the first card. Since no payout is needed, the replay cams are not released. It's pretty easy to win a race when the distance you need to travel is zero

Game is working pretty good. It will detect back-to-back wins on occasion.

I have one problem left:
It will not pay double-double. Its keeps adding credits until it tilts. One thing I did notice with this game is that the alternater unit was never installed in this game. It looks like it was made this way.

#20 4 months ago
Quoted from carniello:

It will not pay double-double. Its keeps adding credits until it tilts. One thing I did notice with this game is that the alternater unit was never installed in this game. It looks like it was made this way.

unless you have a machine that doesn't agree with the schematic I have, the alternator unit needs to be there someplace. The pics I have of the internals of a Dixieland don't have the alternator unit on the top/right of the lamp panel either.

take a look at double relay #1 and #2. The pics I have show more switches on those than the manual says and some electrical tape oddness on double relay #2.

It may be possible to configure double relay #1 and #2 in a flip-flop way that achieves the goal … which is to connected wire 70 to wire 51-8 every other time one of the replay cam switches closes. In effect, stepping the replay counter at 1/2 the rate it normally would.

got pics of your double relays?

#21 4 months ago
Quoted from carniello:

I have one problem left:
It will not pay double-double. Its keeps adding credits until it tilts. One thing I did notice with this game is that the alternator unit was never
installed in this game. It looks like it was made this way.

If there is no Alternator Unit it would have had to have been removed somewhere along the way. You would think that some cut wiring would be evident. You'll need it to properly score the win when successfully going for Double or Nothing while on a Double Double hit. It's hard to say if the unit was just taken for use in another game or some modification has been made. So what if some mod has been made....
I'm curious, when you play all eleven coins and drop a ball in the magic number do you get the Double lit on four cards and Double Double lit on two? Then if you get a win on a card with Double Double lit then does the machine only register Double instead of Double Double or register improperly? If yes:
1. Start the game over and set it up as above lighting the Double Double feature and before collecting the win check that the Eleventh Coin Relay is energized.
2. Collect the win.
3. If game pays only double or otherwise incorrectly, check to see if the Eleventh Coin Relay has disengaged.
If you've gotten this far then you likely have a shorted diode. Check the diode on the Double No. 1 Relay (page 36 in the manual).

#22 4 months ago

he said he gets runaway payout on a double-double win, but all other payouts are fine.

the alternator unit switch between wire 51-8 and 70 at schem F15 is what is needed during a double-double win - referred to as ALT_SW below. If that's missing/not working or the game has been modified and something functionally equivalent not wired in, then the circuit to step the replay counter is broken and the result is runaway pay.

he needs to do one of:
- find the alternator unit and fix the issue
- see where it was, verify it's been clipped out and conclude he needs to replace it
- figure out how the circuit has been modified to work without it
- determine the 11th coin feature was disabled and the game operated as-is.

anyone with a dixie confirm where the alternator unit actually is?

also, anyone got a parts game they are willing to chop the x2x2 unit out and send my way? I need to make/post a diagram for it. Keep the coils or I can send it back afterwards. The density of the wiring on the back is too great to diagram the unit in game unless you're willing to push the wires around a lot. See pic below. The guy who took the pic didn't want to risk breaking wires off so we gave up on making the diagram.

also need the magic random unit. It has a different part number than Nashville which has already been diagrammed.

------------------------------------------
tmi below - proceed at your own risk:
------------------------------------------

the alternator unit is not involved with double-or-nothing....it only deals with the 11th coin feature. It's possible on the game to get double-double-double:
- the 9th/10th coins doubling is the 1-2-3 and 4-5-6 x2 trip relays
- winning a double/nothing is the double win #2 relay
- the 11th coin doubling is the alternator unit. Since that means you enabled 9th and 10th coin doubling first, the cumulative effect is double-double.

EACH of the above cause the replay counter to step at 1/2 the rate it would for a base win, and the affects are cumulative. Get them all and the replay counter steps at 1/8 the base rate. That gives you the potential to win 2400 credits for a 5-in-line on card 6.

if ya look at the schem around G16, you can see how the circuit changes from using a cam 8/x4 switch (1 pulse for every 4 credits added) to cam 9/x8 or cam 8Y/x16. Call this cascade of switches the pulse generator block (PGB) below.

what's not very obvious is how the double relay #2 and the ALT_SW switch doubles things again. The circuit is relying the electrical properties of the coils.
- when ALT_SW is closed, double relay #2 coil is bypassed/shorted and the PBG switch closing causes the replay counter step-up coil to power.
- when the ALT_SW is open, the current goes thru both the double relay #2 coil AND the replay counter step-up coil when the PBG closes. That's enough current to power the double relay #2, but not enough to suck the plunger into the step-up coil.

then look around schem B17 and you'll see that when either a replay counter step-up coil powers or the double relay #2 powers, the alternator unit powers and that toggles the ALT_SW state.

net affect on a card with 11th coin double-double enabled:
- first and odd numbered PGB switch closing powers the double relay #2, and that causes the alternator unit to step and close ALT_SW. The current-starved replay counter coil will not power sufficiently to step the unit.
- second and even PGB switch closing powers the replay counter step-up coil and steps the unit. An EOS switch on the step-up arm causes the alternator unit to step and open ALT_SW

IMG_4237 (resized).JPG

#23 4 months ago
Quoted from baldtwit:

It may be possible to configure double relay #1 and #2 in a flip-flop way that achieves the goal … which is to connected wire 70 to wire 51-8 every other time one of the replay cam switches closes. In effect, stepping the replay counter at 1/2 the rate it normally would.

got pics of your double relays?

Yes. It looks like there was wires soldered there.

relay (resized).jpg
#24 4 months ago
Quoted from baldtwit:

unless you have a machine that doesn't agree with the schematic I have, the alternator unit needs to be there someplace. The pics I have of the internals of a Dixieland don't have the alternator unit on the top/right of the lamp panel either.

I found where the "alternator" was. There are some cut wires I found tucked away and some screw holes where the unit was mounted.

alternator (resized).jpg
#25 4 months ago
Quoted from 29REO:

I'm curious, when you play all eleven coins and drop a ball in the magic number do you get the Double lit on four cards and Double Double lit on two? Then if you get a win on a card with Double Double lit then does the machine only register Double instead of Double Double or register improperly?

It registers Double-Double inproperly ( tilts out after too many credits). Double registers properly.

#26 4 months ago

Hi All! I made a "alternator unit" from an old bally score reel. It does not have the correct cam, but it will work one time only and then have to be manually reset. Good new! The alternator unit fixes the Double -Double problem. Here is a link to the video of it working:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TgZgDsQ5A9uHO4PYNQVs8FgDOhGIfHYd/view?usp=sharing.

So all I need is correct cam and wire it up nicely!

The cam part number is: Ratchet - 10 tooth - 5 lobes C-704-2

Thanks!

unit (resized).JPG
#27 4 months ago

Steve from PBR is gonna check at his house for one...

#28 4 months ago

It is located at the far upper right corner looking into the back of the machine on the light board right behind the 1st card light. Baldtwit's explanation is right on. PM me and I will send you one if you haven't already found one. Either the whole unit or just the cam, whatever you need.

1 week later
#29 3 months ago

Game is finished. Thanks for all the help!

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