Richmond, VA
Also, I'm pretty sure the lamp circuit was designed that way so that the 6V winding would not get overloaded. That's a lotta lamps.
(Topic ID: 212202)
So I got them all on 49 okay and the lights all work correctly. The switches mounting plate has long slots so plenty of adjustment room there. Someone in the past bent the lip of the relay plate out when they were trying to get it set right. I made the slots in the relay bracket longer on number 3 so I would have enough room to adjust it but now the plate is pointed into the disk and the relay pull is not strong enough to release it from the notch so I will have to take the plate off and beat the lip back so it will slide out of the notch easily. You can see the hammer marks on it from where it has been beaten on before.
Once I get that set and working properly it will be trying to figure out why it does not score properly. I have not looked at that part of the schematic yet. It gives me between 70 and 73 credits for 3 in a line. It first pulses 4 which seems correct, pauses for and instant the continues to pulse up the credits. I hope this is an easy one to figure out. Getting close.
Quoted from TheWiz:Once I get that set and working properly it will be trying to figure out why it does not score properly. I have not looked at that part of the schematic yet. It gives me between 70 and 73 credits for 3 in a line. It first pulses 4 which seems correct, pauses for and instant the continues to pulse up the credits. I hope this is an easy one to figure out. Getting close.
Scoring is a complex set of circuits. The first thing I'd check would be if the replay counter is stepping appropriately for the card in question. Does it also step another card's replay counter at the same time? Does it behave the same way in double or nothing play vs. regular?
Scoring will have to wait a bit longer! Back to search problems. Got the 3rd disk lined up and releasing on it's own but now all the search disks get hung up in the middle of theirs scans. Bunches of relays clacking so it is hard to tell yet exactly what is going on. It was working okay before when I released the 3rd disk manually. Back to the drawing board.
Only one turns at a time. What happens is 1 starts, goes a few rivets and stops. If I push it a bit it starts again and completes the 2 starts. Some times 2 stalls and sometimes it does not. The 3 starts and sometimes it stalls and sometimes it does not. 1 stalls every time lately. All the while the relays in the 5 relay and are clattering away.
does it stop when it finds a winner? When that happens it will flash double or nothing on the backglass. That is appropriate behavior.
If it stops and isn't really doing anything... then you have a mechanical issue.
Looks like it stops on purpose, search index relay pulls in. I will watch a little closer to see if there is a winner but nothing was flashing. Does it hurt to let it sit there while I measure and see what exactly is picking it? I am only playing one card so you think I could figure out if I have a winner or not.
Quoted from TheWiz:Looks like it stops on purpose, search index relay pulls in. I will watch a little closer to see if there is a winner but nothing was flashing. Does it hurt to let it sit there while I measure and see what exactly is picking it? I am only playing one card so you think I could figure out if I have a winner or not.
It can sit like that for a long time. Pretty bullet-proof. You could have a payout stepper unit stuck. Verify step up and reset operations manually on each of the six of them.
Thank you. It is stopping on a winner, wasn't paying attention, just wanting to them go all the way around and stop where they are suppose to. BTW - I decided it does not have to stop exactly on a rivet. As long as it is after 50 and before 48 it should be good.
So when it pays a winner, say 3 in a-line it pays the 4 credits, pauses and then continues to add credits. It keeps adding credits until something times out and it quits. That is why the disk sometimes does not get back to home. That also explains why sometimes I get 70 credits and sometimes as many as 74, just depends on the timer. Off to try to understand all those circuits. Hints welcomed 
Automatically portions, in this case, the double or nothing feature and a chance at certain combinations on 11th coin and magic numbers, IIRC.
Okay, thanks. Have not gotten to that scoring in my testing yet. Normal stuff looking good up to the diag. For cards 4-5-6. Pretty sure it is a dirty switch but I am trying to Learn the circuits so I am tracking it down through the schematics. Got a good idea of which one but got distracted by basketball.
Cards 1, 2 and 3 seem to work okay now for the straight lines and diagonals. Cards 4, 5 and 6 will keep adding credits and not stop. Trying to figure out how this all works but I just go in circles. Not sure yet what all controls which cards. Need to understand how the credit counters work. They all are snappy, step up manually and snap back. Cleaned then up to make sure there no carbon tracks on them. Verifying and tracing wires will take some doing.
If you have a winner on card 4, for example, the replay counter that corresponds to card 4 should be the -only- counter that steps.
If more than one is stepping, you have a search disc that's out of line with the others, or another problem.
Card 3 and 4 are tied together as far as scoring - usually, if card 3 scores, card 4 will as well. 5 and 6 are on the final search disc.
On each search disc, there are slip rings with wire arms that ride inside. Make sure those wire arms are clean and there is adequate tension on the slip rings themselves, and only one slip ring wiper is in one track. The order is important, but if none are crossing over another, you're all set there.
In this case you can observe after the fact.
Set up a winner that will only hit on card #4.
Examine each card replay counter and see if they are off home position after collecting several replays on card #4. If another one is out of place, there's almost certainly an alignment issue.
I'm somewhat confused on the sequence of events here. So the individual replay counters don't step up until after the replays are counted up on the repla register? Here is what I observed but I will do it a couple of more times to make I am seeing it right. I set up a 3 in a row winner on a card and push the C button. The search disks turn in sequence. When one detects the winner it stops and Reg or Double flashes. I pushy the R button and the replay register clicks up 4 replays then the replay counter disk for the card steps up one and the system is ready for another game. Once a new game is started the replay counter is reset.
So what does the replay counter do or is keeping track of if it steps up after you have been awarded the replays? Perhaps I am not seeing it correctly or I have something not working correctly. I thought the way it should work would be the search disks would scan and step up the replay counters as it found winners and when it was all done scanning then it would rack up the replays on the replay register.
I am beginning to see how it all fits together. The replay counters keep track of what has been paid as each win is paid off when found so this is the way it only pays once for the highest win per card. I was playing with card one. On a five in a row it paid 100 correctly and then for some reason put on another 12. Fun stuff to figure out.
After the 100 is paid, does the search disc move a fraction more? Does the replay counter step cleanly? To all steps? You are correct about what is supposed to happen with the replay counter. The first step = 4 replays.
This thing is all messed up! I have reverted back to just checking card #1. Scoring is just not correct. If I set it for 3 in a line without any magic number in the line it gives 5 credits instead of 4. If I set it for 3 in a line without magic number except 9 it gives 5 credits. If I set it for 3 in a line with 9 in the line it will give 16 credits. I am going to do a little more testing to see if I can find a common fault but I believe I will start my systematic cleaning and adjusting on all the contacts. All the relays and motors are working good so it has to be just a matter of dirty contacts or alignment.
The magic number will double all replays when hit. If you have 11th coin there is a chance it will quadruple the payout. In the example above 4x4 = 16 so that may have been correct. One replay off means either: replay counter isn't stepping, or one switch governing payout is slightly out of line. The latter is kinda unlikely, but possible. Of course, a dirty search disc could also be the cause.
Of the three possibilities, I'd say dirty search disc is #1 in my book.
You are, of course, more than welcome to do a tear down and rebuild on the thing, but that will likely introduce other problems. Up to you, of course.
I keep going back and forth on tearing it down. Wish there was an easy way to get to the search disks to inspect closely.
I am only playing 1 coin so I shouldn't be doubling, right? I tried the same thing on card 2 only playing 2 coins and got like 17 credits for 3 in a line. Replay steppers look to be doing what they should. For the one on card 2 only replay stepper 2 had moved and it was only 1 step so that seems correct.
So could I have clutch problems on the cu where the replay cams are not stopping like they should? I need to figure how all that works I guess.
I did buzz out some of the switches to the 5 & 6 search disk just to convince myself I was reading the schematic correctly and they were okay. It will be amazing when I figure this all out. It seems pretty complicated and over whelming when you first look at it but starts being much more simple once you start understanding how it works and what each part does.
Is there any documentation of theory of operation on these machines or detailed sequencing, something like that? Something telling you that when you push the C button such and such relay(s) energize, etc. step by step of what happens to what would be very helpful in troubleshooting. Some type of logic flow diagram? I have to write that kind of stuff all the time at work for my software programs. I write it and then never use it because I am so familiar with it that I don't need it anymore but it is really useful for someone not familiar with the program (or machine) to understand how it is supposed to operate and then determine if something is not working right and where to look.
Enough rambling, back to learning this beast!
The closest you'll get is the manual. For scoring,you have the search indexes that pull in. From there there are lots of relays involved with regular vs double or nothing scoring. The manual lays them all out and what activates what in what scenario.
Moncton, NB
I think I would have trouble with just one @terry1! lol.
Did some more cleaning and of course changed how things are working. 3 in a line seem to work okay on card 1 & 2 but the other cards are still messed up. I did notice when things are messed up the replay counter it is going to has the selenoid energized, which is not correct. It should just pulse right?
What is the "missed trip" relays all about? Are these for no hits on the search disks?
Missed will trip if you get nothing on a double or nothing play. If cleaning disc 1 fixed cards 1&2, you know what's next... Clean disc 2 and 3.
So how would you recommend cleaning the search disks without tearing it apart? There seems to be lots ob black drag marks between the rivets, looks to be mostly congealed grease of some kind. What do you use to clean the slip ring channels?
My methods may be different from others....
If the channels look corroded, folded fine sandpaper folded into the slot and rotate the mech. That said, I've never had an issue with bingo's I've worked on. Remove the contact spring wire and make sure it has a lot of tension. Adjust if necessary.
As for the rivets, I use fine sandpaper to wipe the rivets around the wiper arms, moving them to get at every rivet. Also clean the rivets on the wiper arms.
My hand looks like I've been picking raspberries as banged up as they are getting, lol. I think I will glue sandpaper on a stick and see if that makes reaching all the rivets easier.
I really don 't know if it is the disks causing the problem or not. Seems like something else going on. The search disc stops on a win, I push the R button and it racks up the credits, pauses, then keeps on adding credits. During that time the step up selenoid for the replay counter stays energized and never releases. So what is supposed to happen to release that? It works for cards 1& 2 so it seems like it has to do with the search disc but I don't follow the logic.
when the rivets have dried grease and other crud on them, sandpaper isn't ideal as it will gum up quickly. Aslo, you don't want to put scratches in the rivets (or contacts), so make sure it's really fine sandpaper if using that.
try a green scrub pad or synthetic steel wool ... wet it with a solvent like denatured alcohol and use that to get the grease off, then a rag wetted with the same solvent. Let the solvent evaporate before making sparks in there.
a solenoid (coil + plunger) in a bingo should never be held on. The coil will get warm, then hot, then red hot, then one of the following:
- replace a fuse
- replace the coil
- you'll be making your fire insurance claim and getting a rebuilt house
the replay register is getting stepped up by CU 7A switch. It'll do that forever. As you've figured out, the replay counter is what stops the payout when the wipers have stepped off the actives copper trace(s). If your replay counter step-up solenoid is stuck on, the replay counter wipers won't move and you get runaway payout.
the 96 step (max) replay counter is getting stepped by the stuff around schem G-17. It's more complicated because that circuit takes care of the following functions:
- paying wins greater than 96. It does that by using switches on different cams. The cams have different numbers of lobes on them, so the ratio of credits added to replay counter steps changes.
- the X2 trip relays handle 9th and 10th coin doubling
- the double win #2 relays handles winning a double-or-nothing play
- double relays #1, #2 and the alternator unit switch handle 11th coin double-double
if you're playing a 1-coin game and get a win, CU 8 is the switch that steps the replay counter. It will step once after 4 credits have been added (look at the lobes on cam 7 and 8 to see why), and one step is enough to get the wipers off the 4 trace.
when the replay counter steps off the active trace(s), the search wipers should release immediately. If that's not happening, take a look a the bottom of manual page 10 and make sure the switches are adjusted like it says. Also, make sure....really sure...that replay cams index switches A and E are ONLY closed when the replay cams index coil is powered. When the coil is not powered but the cams aren't locked in the home position (the locking pin is riding on the cam edge), switch A and E must be open.
if you check all that and it's still flaky, look and see if the search wipers are still locked on the original winning rivets, or did they move. Also, are any other search index units powered.
the interesting part is you said the game pays 4 then pauses before paying more. That would imply the search wipers moved (or at least the search index coil lost power), but it should not be possible to power the search index coil again...unless the search index A switch is stuck closed and the replay cams index / CU 7 back switch are misadjusted.
Thank you baldtwit for the detailEd description. I will check all that once I have digested it. What you describe if much what I have deduced but I am missing something. The search disk does not move after the initial credits are given. The replay counter step up stays locked on. I keep checking cam 7 but I get correct action on cards 1 & 2, the rest do as described.
Quoted from baldtwit:the interesting part is you said the game pays 4 then pauses before paying more. That would imply the search wipers moved (or at least the search index coil lost power), but it should not be possible to power the search index coil again...unless the search index A switch is stuck closed and the replay cams index / CU 7 back switch are misadjusted
baldtwit is right about everything.
Sorry I have not had more time to respond, but I was trying to get to the bottom of the pauses as well... I wonder... What if search index B is closed, holding it in place, but A is marginal and is getting some kinda arcing as it tried to release? Might also explain scoring issues not appearing on card 1&2 again, since it doesn't rely on a common path?
One other note. If you adjust those control unit switches as displayed in the diagram on pg 10 in the manual, it can be very difficult to get them just right. I leave those until all other possibilities have been eliminated.
Thank you both for all the help you have been assisting in learning Bingo games. I think I will like it even better if I ever get it to work! Lol
I have checked the switches on pg 10 a couple of times and they work just as described. I have taken off all the switches on top and back of the control unit, cleaned and polished then, checked the solder tabs, put them back on and checked for alignment and gaps and made sure they open and close as they are supposed too. Since it's midnight here I didn't fire it up though. Tomorrow morning I will polish the contacts on the front of the cu unit and try it out to see if anything changed.
The search disks are as clean as I can get them without taking it all apart. They all seem to operate correctly but if I still have issues tomorrow I will buzz out all the wires to make sure of the contacts. I did notice some blue sparks here and there as the disk searches, is that normal or an indication of dirty contacts?
I have inspected all the other contacts on the relays and filed them all very lightly and checked for proper operation. If it is still not working then the only thing left is to do it all again and see if I can find what I've missed.
Thanks again to all for sticking with me and helping me out. I truly appreciate it.
I have not tracked this down on the schematics yet but was wondering if anyone knows of the top of their head. Found this while cleaning switches. Is this a broken switch blade or just a tie point?
It is the bottom leaf of the switch stack of the search index coil. It has 3 orange wires on it and looks like it has been worked on before. One of the wires goes to the coil it self. Since it is a NO contact with the red and orange/black wires above it it doest not nake sense fot it to have another leaf there.
Got all the switches cleaned, polished and adjusted on the control unit. Still have the same problem on cards 3, 4, 5 and 6 where the replay counter step up and selenoid locks on. The replay counter steps up once as it should and none of the others do so it is back to try and figuring out why the selenoid does not release. It is not mechanical as I cannot pull it down and release it, it has power to it. I'll have to take my colored pencils out and trace the schematic to see where it could be coming from.
Some improvement on cards 1 and 2 though. Before I would get 1 more credit than I was supposed to get, I. E. 5 instead of 4 for 3 in aline. Now I get 4. But on card 1 I get 20 credits instead of 16 for 4 in aline as the instruction card says i should get. I get 100 for 5 in aline, which according to the instructions is correct. I'll worry about the extra 5 credits later.
So I am becoming a bit more observant as I become more familiar with the game. The replay counter selenoid energizes but does not step. So perhaps it is mechanical. Will do some more checking comparing them to 1 and 2 to see if they operate the same.
I did go through all the wires on all the replay counters and verified them to the manual. Found one wire different on # 6 and moved it to match the manual.
Sounds as if the switch on the impulse cam on the score motor is either mis-adjusted/screws holding it are loose. Or, the contacts are welding closed and there is not enough spring tension to break them apart when the cam is on a "low" spoit.
Impulse cam switch is good and works fine. All switch screws tightened and contacts checked. Cards 1and 2 score okay which leads me to believe control unit itself is okay.
Replay counter step up selenoid energizes and do not let go for #3,4,5,6.
Cleaned and checked selection disk. Did find a problem with it and corrected but it did not solve issue.
I am not liking bongos so much anymore, Lol
Quoted from TheWiz:So I am becoming a bit more observant as I become more familiar with the game. The replay counter selenoid energizes but does not step. So perhaps it is mechanical. Will do some more checking comparing them to 1 and 2 to see if they operate the same.
I did go through all the wires on all the replay counters and verified them to the manual. Found one wire different on # 6 and moved it to match the manual.
the ratchets on the stepper units move when the springs are pulling the plunger out of the coil after the power is removed. That's a handy thing to remember when trying to figure out how circuits work. If the ratchets turned when the plunger was sucking into the coil, the wipers may disconnect the circuit before the ratchet moved far enough to complete the step.
be careful with the manuals..they have errors - especially in the late model games. The schematics are right. Having said that, tho, the wires on the replay counters can be moved to change the payout. Some games had jumpers, others you had to solder. There's sometimes instructions on the back side of the score cards, and the game came with different cards. Nashville had at least two cards ... the difference was the payout on card 6 for 4/5-in-line.
just to make sure since I'm easy to confuse in my dotage....
1] Only the correct replay counter / search index for a win is sticking. e.g. when you have a win on card 4, only replay counter #4 step-up is sticking on and only search index 3-4 is powered
2] the game pays 4, there's a pause, then it pays as CU 7 closes without any more pause
the pause is still interesting ... if the replay counter step-up powered and never released, there shouldn't be any pauses.
payouts rounding up is the replay cams index switch A. Have you checked that yet? Does the "Made only when energized" note make sense? That switch could also hold the search index powered longer than it should be.
another thing to try is to complete the win by holding in a playfield hole switch with your finger. When the replay counter step-up coil sticks on, let go of the switch...what happens?
Thanks for the help and hints.
1. Yes, only the replay counter for the winning card is sticking and only the search disk for that card is powered.
2. That is correct. Pays 4, a pause and then takes off. I have noticed that the pause is not consistnt, sometimes it is quiet noticeable and other times it is just a slight hesitation.
The replay counter step up selenoid stays energized and vibrating/buzzing not allowing the plunger to fall and completing the step. I just pull it down to go on. All 6 of the replay counters have 6 or 7 large washers on the plunger to help them fall down which with power off and manually actuating them they work smooth.
I'll try the finger in the hole tomorrow.
I forgot to answer your other questions. Yes, I have checked Cam index switch A several times but will check again.
Yes, I understand the note, it is a self hold contact until something else happens. But if that was holding too long why does 1and2 work? I guess I have not grasped exactly how it counts. I thought it was from cams on the cu but have not figured out what breaks the circuit after 4.
Quoted from TheWiz:Yes, I understand the note, it is a self hold contact until something else happens.
for this unit, nope.
Take a look at the "game rounds up payout to a consistent multiple - usually 12" on this page:
https://bingo.cdyn.com/techno/commonproblems/payout/overpay.html
the switch stack numbers are different, but it's the three positions of the index arm and the switch state you care about.
Quoted from TheWiz:But if that was holding too long why does 1and2 work? I guess I have not grasped exactly how it counts. I thought it was from cams on the cu but have not figured out what breaks the circuit after 4.
yup...why does 1-2 work is a good question. Either the locked position of the 1-2 wipers is affecting the 3-4 and 5-6, or the electrical properties of the coils/circuit is different enough for the 1-2 that it works.
MrBally's comment is interesting. If your CU 8 switch is barely opening, it could arc when a different search index coil/replay counter coil is in the circuit.
best thing is probably power off, manually release the replay cams and turn them. Watch the CU8, CU9 and CU 8Y switches to see if the have good gaps when they are open. The switch contacts typically touch around 3/4 the way up a cam lobe and the other 1/4 give you the overtravel you want.
the circuit is a little odd because on the schem there's two paths to the top side of each replay counter step up coil. The straight above path thru the search disc, replay counter disc and search relays is win detection and payout cutoff. The path to the left over the search index coils is a redundant path that only closes when the replay register step-up coil is powering.
that's why the CU 7 back switch and adjust instructions...you want the back switch closed the entire time the CU 7A is closing/opening to step the replay register.
the purpose of the left circuit is to provide a separate current path for the replay register coil. It's high power, and turning it on/off creates current and voltage spikes that can burn pits into the replay counter printed circuit traces if arcing happens there. The left path helps prevent that.
to actually answer the question - the wipers on the replay counter step off the trace and that breaks the connection in the straight up path. When the CU 7 back switch opens, that breaks the connection in the left path and the search index coil opens and releases the wipers.
in your case, the replay counter is not stepping (the bottom side of the coil is not opening), so runaway payout happens.
there's a number of things you can do to figure out where the problem is coming from. When the replay counter coil is stuck on, quickly:
- stick a business card/paper between the CU 8 switch contacts.
- stick paper under all the wipers on search disk 1-2.
- stick paper between the CU 7 back switch contacts
Replay counter coil turn off for any of those?
Thank you for the detailed description of hw this works and possible causes of the problem. I will try those things tonight since I actually have to go and do my normal job today 
I wii look closer at the gaps as you and MrBally suggest. I probably do have them set closer than they need to be.
I have ran out of time tonight to get everything tested. I did chech the cu switches and all seem to be working as they should. Checked search discs for cards 3 & 4 again and it seems to be okay.
I would like to understand the exact sequence/operation of the replay counters and the purpose of the wieghts on the step-up plungers. I've observed a couple of different behaviors in them but I don't know what is correct and what isn't.
Hat I thought should be happening is when the search disks find a winner they stop and power should be going through to the replay counter and energize the step up coil and the as the cam comes around on the correct replay cam on the control unit power is interrupted, the replay counter step-coil is released and the plunger drops down stepping up the counter and moving it off the powered trace while at the same time the search wipers are released thus removing power from the replay counter step-up via the search.
What I see happening is that power is applied to the step-up but the plunger does not get pulled in, just sits there vibrating a little. Just the slightest push up on the washers allows the plunger to pull in and things progress as I thought they should as described above. So my question is should the plunger pull all the way in when power is applied through the search relay or are the washer weights there to provide resistance enough until something else happens to overcome the weight? That makes no sense to me but I've never seen one of these games work so I don't know what operation to expect.
Maybe I'm not getting full power to the selenoid through the search disk or maybe I have weak coils. I did clean the tilt trip contacts but that did not help.
So some testing it is back to what it was doing before where the step-up coil pulls the plunger in and I get 4 credits, pauses and the adds credits continuously. There is power still applied to the step up so I need to find out why. Seems like a chicken and the egg thing. If the cams break power but the search wipers haven't moved then I get what I am seeing so it has to be either bacdoor power through the search disk or a timing thin that only affects 3, 4, 5 and 6 and not 1 and 2.
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