(Topic ID: 293907)

Display issues

By rvermeire

2 years ago


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Topic Stats

  • 19 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by rvermeire
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 2 years ago

Before warmed up, my display, the alphanumeric ones only, gave strange little signs in the superior digit blocks (looks little V's)

After warm up the issue was gone and could live with it. Since today it does not longer go away, even after warm up of 5 to 10 minutes.

Doesn't look like gassed out as all digits are ok and display test is fine.

The problem is only appearing when text is scrolling. When it's displaying the high scores the extra signs are not visible (see last pic)

Is there anything that can be done ?

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#2 2 years ago
Quoted from rvermeire:

Is there anything that can be done ?

I'd turn the game off. Then reseat all ribbon cables involved.

LTG : )

#3 2 years ago

Check your display voltage too....
Should be -100V and +100V.

#4 2 years ago

And post a picture of the CPU board so it can be looked over for battery damage.

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

I'd turn the game off. Then reseat all ribbon cables involved.
LTG : )

did reseating, got worse and even created issues now on line 2 (non alphanumeric) as well
Took the same cable from my Whirlwind which is 100% ok and it got worse...

#6 2 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

And post a picture of the CPU board so it can be looked over for battery damage.

battery (resized).jpgbattery (resized).jpg
#7 2 years ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

Check your display voltage too....
Should be -100V and +100V.

on which pin or connectors can this be measured on a system 11a ?

#8 2 years ago

There are two things evident in the image. It is not well lit and not all in focus so there are probably other things not visible.

f14.jpgf14.jpg

I think there is other evidence of alkaline corrosion (black darkened solder mask) that remains. It's obviously been previously repaired but I don't think the repair was a full and complete repair or replacement alkaline batteries have again leaked (in the past) and caused more corrosion.

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

There are two things evident in the image. It is not well lit and not all in focus so there are probably other things not visible.
[quoted image]
I think there is other evidence of alkaline corrosion (black darkened solder mask) that remains. It's obviously been previously repaired but I don't think the repair was a full and complete repair or replacement alkaline batteries have again leaked (in the past) and caused more corrosion.

Thx for the very useful comments.
The game plays well, all features seems to work and react accordingly. Just want to get the display up and runing 100%.

So would adding these capacitors and clean up the corrosion help ? (already (just) used my fiberglasspen).. or what else to do ?
According to Marco these 2 are used in F14 : 5043-08980-00 (0.01uF -50V) and 5043-08996-00 (0.1uF - 50V) which one is it at these locations ?
C31& C32 (both on picture below) according to manual are 0.01Uf

Would swapping the display for another one solve the issue (or do you think the display itself is ok and it's of no use to swap it)?

and could a possible voltage issue be the reason as stated before? how to measure ?

Thx !!!
zoom in 1 (resized).jpgzoom in 1 (resized).jpgzoom in 2 (resized).jpgzoom in 2 (resized).jpg

#10 2 years ago
Quoted from rvermeire:

on which pin or connectors can this be measured on a system 11a ?

You can measure the voltages at J5-3 (-100V) and J5-4 (+100V) on the power supply.
My game has a led board, so no hv-components, but the location is the same.

power_supply (resized).jpgpower_supply (resized).jpg
#11 2 years ago
Quoted from rvermeire:

The game plays well, all features seems to work and react accordingly.

Alkaline corrosion is insidious. It is often overlooked and even ignored. Repair performed by those who don't often deal with it is often inadequate. The silicon might work on the surface but without full abatement the alkaline corrosion is a ticking time bomb. It continues to spread and will potentially cause failures in the future.

Quoted from rvermeire:

Just want to get the display up and running 100%.

The display translates signals from the CPU board to the display. If the signals from the CPU are not correct it does not matter what display you put in the machine. The display will not show the correct result because the originating signals are not correct. Start with a good foundation.

Quoted from rvermeire:

So would adding these capacitors and clean up the corrosion help ? (already (just) used my fiberglasspen).. or what else to do ?

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#Repairing_Alkaline_Corrosion

Quoted from rvermeire:

According to Marco these 2 are used in F14 : 5043-08980-00 (0.01uF -50V) and 5043-08996-00 (0.1uF - 50V) which one is it at these locations ?
C31& C32 (both on picture below) according to manual are 0.01Uf

Anything labeled "B" is 103Z = 0.01uF ceramic capacitor +20%/-80%. You can substitute 103J (5%), 103K (10%) or 103M (20%) as these all have lower tolerance.

Quoted from rvermeire:

Would swapping the display for another one solve the issue (or do you think the display itself is ok and it's of no use to swap it)?
and could a possible voltage issue be the reason as stated before? how to measure ?

See above. Both the CPU signals AND display have to work correctly to show the correct result. The two ways to be sure are to measure the signals for correctness or swap a known good on either end (board or display) and see what happens. Swapping a known good is the fastest and easiest way to start the differential diagnosis process. High voltage plasma displays require the correct voltage from the power supply board otherwise they will not show anything regardless of the logic signal processing.

Your board shows more signs of corrosion in the image. The image is reasonably well lit and reasonably in focus. Of course, there is no substitute for having the board directly in front of you to make the best possible diagnosis. The RED areas I would classify as severe (obvious) corrosion. The ORANGE areas are lighter (but evident in the image) corrosion.

The effect of the corrosion is unpredictable. It could interrupt the signal or it could tamper with the signal such that it is inconsistent. Digital logic (TTL) has a well defined range of voltages. Anything outside the range is ambiguous and may result in unpredictable results. The corrosion may induce this ambiguity. You need to measure to be sure. Or ... perform alkaline abatement, repair and replace the affected components with clean components.

f14.jpgf14.jpg
#12 2 years ago

Impressive feedback !! Thx

First I gonna try clean it up with vinaigre and water as stated on pinwiki
U41 is on a socket, might make it a bit easier and eventually I replace that chip if it can easily be found.

It's not clear for me yet if adding these missing capacitors is mandatory to guarantee 100% functionality.
If not I might not have to remove the board from the backbox (if very lucky )

I have a display from on old Big Guns where the lower display lines are defective. Will swap and see if the partial blinking parts will pop up with this one as well as issue is mainly on the first line (alphanumeric) displays.

I will of course also do the voltage test as proposed by inkochnito (thx as well !)

Thx again !

#13 2 years ago

They are all 6821 chips which are SUPER common and easy to find.

#14 2 years ago

Stop trying to avoid getting real repair done to your board. No matter how you wish, swap displays and/or pray, that board, as stated before, is a ticking time bomb. It won't serve any good if you just replace the IC without replacing the socket. The only real repair that you can trust is to remove all resistors, capacitors and ICs, wash the board with all the the parts remove, take a bunch of pictures, note all the obvious traces that need repair, put in sockets and new ICs as much as possible unless they are unobtainium , new resistors, new capacitors including those missing, remove the battery connector and your batteries from there and place them remote if you don't install NVRAM.

And then, and only then will you be able to trust your board is not going to cause more and more issues as time goes by. It's like putting a Band-Aid on an infected wound. You might stop the bleeding, but not the infection. Instead of spending money on a display, spend money to send the board to a local pro to have it cleaned and fixed. Just a glance of the first picture of your board was obvious this board can't be trusted in its current state.

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

Check your display voltage too....
Should be -100V and +100V.

I measure -118V and +103.5V.... guess it's not ok ?
Can this be adjusted in a way like on a Bally Xenon with a potentiometer on the board?

I've removed the socket IC's and cleaned socket and IC's up a bit and upper displays are again stable after a couple of minutes... and remains that way as long as game is on. When I turn it off and back on in a snap it stays stable...

If I leave it off for 5 minutes the signs are back when I turn it on again.

So heat of board/circuits as kind of an impact...

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from rvermeire:

I measure -118V and +103.5V.... guess it's not ok ?
Can this be adjusted in a way like on a Bally Xenon with a potentiometer on the board?
I've removed the socket IC's and cleaned socket and IC's up a bit and upper displays are again stable after a couple of minutes... and remains that way as long as game is on. When I turn it off and back on in a snap it stays stable...
If I leave it off for 5 minutes the signs are back when I turn it on again.
So heat of board/circuits as kind of an impact...

It is a bit on the high side.
It should be around 102.4V minus and plus.
You can only lower the voltage by replacing the zener diodes ZR2 and ZR4 on the power supply.
The original zener is a 1N4764 (100V), but can be replaced with a 1N4763A (91V) zener.

#17 2 years ago

Does anyone know which ones these are ZR2 & ZR4, as not stipulated on the drawing. It's supposed to be point 23...

power 1 (resized).jpgpower 1 (resized).jpgpower 2 (resized).jpgpower 2 (resized).jpg
#18 2 years ago

b558209cfa3300f9b6889039ecf5b49264027ee5 (resized).jpgb558209cfa3300f9b6889039ecf5b49264027ee5 (resized).jpg

Is R3 burned?

1 week later
#19 2 years ago

Got the diodes delivered but don't think it's diode related as I have a semi working Big Guns display and when connected it doesn't give thess jittery errors.

But as everything works fine after a couple of minutes I can't imagine the displays themselves are defective...

Looks like some IC's need to heat up first on the display board... Is this possible? and which ones would it be?
In the manual I see U1-2-5-6 are associated with player 1 & 2

How to test ?

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