I have probably been to Disney hundreds of times, having lived near Disneyland in Anaheim and now taking nearly annual trips to Disney World as our kids have grown up. I would agree with flynnibus completely. The fun has been taken out of the trip. It is no longer a vacation, but an endurance test. If we did not have friends that are members of Club 33 with all of the associated benefits, I would be done with Disney. It is not worth the hassle anymore. Even with Club 33 benefits, I am only open to trips every few years at most.

My wife would get on me for using TouringPlans.com to plan out the daily parks in the past, but we would both laugh at the website's suggestions for a ride-by-ride plan. I mean, who plans down to that level when taking a vacation? Spontaneity is gone, and spontaneity is what has led to the best memories while at the parks. My fondest recollections are not associated with a ride or a show, they are associated with what our family did together while at Disney and the unusual things that happened ... like getting stuck on Splash Mountain and walking through the back area of the ride, interacting with Pluto when he was alone in a back area, etc.

I imagine that all those things flynnibus mentioned are contributing to the extreme anxiety levels that are causing fights at the parks. Someone else is always in your way of maximizing your fun. I associated that behavior more with Universal, but it has transcended those parks.

I now think of reasons not to go.

I've had mixed feelings about the parks for years, but the last few months have been the first time I've ever not been itching to go. I don't think it's ever been so frustrating and offered so little value for such a high cost.

Me too. I'm a local and go pretty often.

Yes the parks are expensive.
They have always been expensive...
Yes the lines are long.
The lines have always been long...
Yes Disney tries to squeeze every last dime out of guests.
Disney has always tried to find a home for your cash. Why do you think every ride ends in a gift shop?
News at 11..

Right now the issue is that there is a MASSIVE influx of guests. Park attendance was down for the last 2 years due to the pandemic after many many years of year over year attendance growth. Those patons didn't disappear, they just delayed what may have been a once a year or once every few years trip to now when the parks are open without masking restrictions.

Those people whose jobs were unaffected by quarantining have saved money not commuting to work, not buying lunches and Starbucks during the work day, not going to the movies, out to dinner, or out to the bar and now have CASH TO BURN. They can't buy new cars even if they want one because of supply chain issues. The housing market is still way up there with home values in some places double what they were two years ago, leaving those saving for a new home priced out of the market.

And now you have Disney, still open as an outlet for people to spend that cash that is burning a hole in their pockets. While the quarantine period is over, there is still an effect that will be felt for a year or two while supply chain issues work their way out. Construction projects will begin to catch up and the regular cycle of ride refurbishments and reimagining will resume (which means we'll continue to see rides down, long lines, etc)

Also, attraction lines will never go away, unless the attraction or park is failing, badly. I've talked about this before.

The initial cost estimate of Tron Light Cycle Run was between $350-450 million USD before Covid threw a monkey wrench into construction plans that will likely move the needle higher. Star Wars Galaxy’s Edge at Disneyland was over $1 billion USD to construct.

Attractions are massively expensive and are built solely to attract more patrons. Once the patrons are there they can be sold goods and services as the sole means of making the park money, like tickets, concessions, restaurants, souvenirs, and of course hotels and resorts.

Long lines mean the rides are doing their jobs well, attracting customers. Short lines would mean that rides are operating under capacity, and losing money (think Fast and Furious at Universal, a huge failure). You will never have a financially healthy park with short lines. If you had short lines, you also wouldn’t get new rides (remember rides are incredibly expensive to build).

Yeah the influx of guests is part of it. The other part of it is the massive reduction of quality, amenities and service being implemented by Disney at the exact same time.

These things have been discussed to death already so I'm not going to list them here. But as an example, in the past there was usually at least one park open until 1am or later. With extra magic hours there was often a park open until 3am.

Now the parks are open until 11pm at the latest.

So, if you have a huge influx of people, I ask you... Should you reduce park hours or extend them?

The thing of it is this. Right now, Disney will ride this wave of demand. They'll cut budgets, raise prices, still have huge demand and make a fortune.

But next time there's a recession, or a virus, or a war, or anything else that impacts people's desire to travel and/or spend money, then THAT is the time when Disney will need its parks fans. Will we/they still be there in meaningful numbers?

The micromanaging and lack of spontaneity are the biggest negative changes to WDW over the last two decades.

At least pre-Covid, DLR hasn’t suffered as much from this. You can still visit Disneyland and aside from knowing where you want to start your day and end your day (for the nighttime spectaculars) just let things unfold as they happen. You can wander into little magic encounters around each corner. Characters in the streets, musical acts, and just more magic to be found.

I’ve had more friends that have attempted to micromanage a Disneyland trip like WDW to take their first adventure there and not understand how refreshing DLR can be.

The unofficial mascot of WDW should be Tick Tock the Croc since it always seems time is trying to get the best of you. More than anything, I wish the micromanaging of WDW would go away. Unfortunately, unless a massive influx of capital in terms of attraction capacity is made to WDW- the future is going to be more focused on crowd steering (try to get people to go to the things that they don’t want to) and since that has already proven to be not ultra effective - keep playing chicken with guests and the cost of a visit to maximize per guest revenue. When you don’t want to pay for the capacity you need you simply jack up the prices until you find a point that discourages enough people from coming that those that choose to pay have some semblance of satisfaction.

This is coming from someone who has been a pass holder for both coasts for more than a decade so I’m still as much a guilty part of the problem as anyone else.

Revenge Travel is not why Disney parks are unpleasant right now.

'the parks have always been expensive' does not justify the insane acceleration of costs in the last decade. It does not justify when Disney takes away capacity to monetize it as special access.

'the lines have always been long' is true - but is not the same story as taking attractions that used to be 20mins or less and now are 45min-1hr.. because Disney is trying to eek every bit of utilization out of stuff vs keeping ahead of the demand.

'Disney has always tried to find a home for your cash' - yes, but they also typically delivered on their expectation of a premium product at a premium price. Now it's a rake you over the coals experience and you just grit your teeth and bear it.

Disney has changed, and the current trend has them flooring it and going harder and harder every quarter.

Yield is the new king.

You are misremembering. If you go to https://www.wdwinfo.com/wdwinfo/hours/july18.cfm you can see the park hours for previous years.

Magic kingdom would at times stay open till 12:00am . The only times ever for 1am were during special events, and almost never 3am except on maybe new years.

I think they will. It has almost become a right of passage that as a parent, you have to take your kids to Disney World/Land. It's like how diamond wedding rings weren't a thing until the advertising got in into people heads that it was somehow a tradition to spend 2 months salary on an inherently worthless commodity

They need to get talent back if they want to fix things. Shows, parades, and street performers go a long way to soaking up crowd capacity. They are having a tough time filling those positions at present.

It was ALWAYS been about making as much $ as soon as Eisner and Wells took over in 84. If this is news to you, well go over to Universal. I hear they are putting up a third gate there.

Revenge Travel IS one of the core reasons why attendance is peaking now - especially over times where historically (yes, I'm using that term again just for you Flynnibus), it has been low. Talk to some of the travel agents, they will tell you the same thing. Disney is slowly reducing the perks that is true, but why shouldn't they? Until people stop visiting, they are going the practical route.

I don't care if they make $. My concerns are the historical aspects of the park that they change, but there is not much I can do is there?

Take a look at the development that is going on in Orlando - it's insane right now, and I'm part of the reason why as I'm closing on a real estate very near the parks in a few weeks because that is where I want to spend more time.

Also not going to happen. Disney has stated park reservations are here to stay. It is a huge advantage to them knowing how many people will be in attendance from a resource planning perspective.

Imagine cooking thanksgiving dinner, but having no idea how many people are coming. If you cook too much food, and not enough people show, you wasted time, effort and food (money). If you take a more conservative approach, cook a little less, you risk upsetting your guests, and having them go home hungry. You won't see them again.

11 or midnight was the common close - and when EMH were 2-3 hours it would take it past 1am frequently. 2am was not uncommon.

Don't you remember when they started cutting monorail hours because of the lack of downtime between close and open? Yes, another downfall of the cost cutting Disney.

The reduction of park hours is truth.. and has only gotten worse of late. Add into that the ever encroaching 'party' calendar... oh and let's not forget After Hour Events where we now charge greater than full day admission to run the park late with limited attractions.

And don't even look at parks like DHS... lol. Luckily adding Galaxies Edge has forced that park to open early... because it's close time had gotten dreadful.

I am really curious to see how much they refurb'd Fantasmic... because if it's not caught up to at least the last 3 iterations of DLR's show tech.. people should burn that stage down.

Attendance isn't peaking - Crowding is.

Yawn - defenders tend to not actually know why Disney has the brand power it had... because they only started going to the parks in the last 15 years or so and didn't even know Disney before MYW, etc. Or they eventually just say "well it works for me" -- which it may, doesn't mean the other stuff isn't true.

I generally only go when I'm in town on business and with my old tickets. I still have unused ticket media from 1983 that is still good.

After our last splurge WDW trip, I asked my grown kids what they'd like to do for the next trip.. and they all said 'another cruise'. I'll go back to DLR again before I pay for a big WDW trip. The value and vacation experience is just not there anymore.. and the trajectory is all wrong for it getting better.

Like this new DVC on the poly luau? good lord... They're gonna squeeze this puppy until it pops.

No I'm not misremembering. I've spent a lot of time in magic kingdom after midnight in the past. I will grant you that it may have been extra magic hours. Usually the park was open until midnight, then EMH till 3.

This was super-common park hours back then.

All summer long. In fact, not just summer either.

That site you pointed to doesn't go back very far.

If you don't believe me, take a look at this link. It has hours from June 2011. Note that extra magic hours in the evening were 3 hours back then. So every Friday in June the park was open til midnight with EMH until 3am.

And even on non Fridays you can set the parks were open late

https://www.magicalkingdoms.com/wdw/parks/hours/june_2011.html

For me the parks peaked in the 90s. That’s when imagineering was on it, strong theming everywhere, even in hotels. The parks had spontaneity and charm and you could relax and be on vacation.

The Disney movie IP was strong at that time as well. To me Disney seems creatively confused now, probably because of their overbearing social agenda that they try to force into everything now. Their executives have no idea what a day in the park is like as a normal guest.

Maybe it’s just nostalgia but I don’t think so.

I wasn’t clear before and that is on me. I should have said that the parks haven’t been open that late in a decade. I was reacting to some assertions that this is an all of a sudden change. I was pointing to 2018, pre Covid, to show that this isn’t a new policy.

Pretty sure it is still Disney policy to make executives and imagineers alike attend parks and wait in the full attraction queues to experience the full park. That has been a lasting Walt policy. Marty Sklar talks about it in “Dream It, Do It”

Big difference between Chapek stepping out of his ivory tower for a day to stand in line for pirates, and being a middle income family of six trying to do the parks today. These people have no connection or compassion to average Americans.

I don’t think Disney is marketed to a “middle income” family. If you take the 2020 median household income of 67k before taxes, I don’t know if it is possible to afford it as an annual destination. Seems like more of an upper middle class activity, kinda like collecting pinball machines…

Of course median income families go. My buddy manages an Olive Garden and just got back.

That is cool and I see where you are coming from. I definitely agree that they have been shortening park hours since well before covid. It's really been happening over the last decade... And I've definitely noticed it happening the entire time! . Mainly because I love late night hours at the parks more than any other time.

I think that for many people, there has been a slow-roll of cutbacks over the last decade and they are all adding up now. And it seems like in many aspects, the cutbacks are accelerating lately while prices are rising. It's not just about park hours. It's many things.

Honestly, the good news for Disney parks, and for their fans, is that people are upset by all of this. I mean, we're discussing this on a pinball forum. Because we still care, at least a little bit. Once nobody is discussing or complaining about this stuff is when Disney really has a problem. I hear more and more fans of the parks just flat out giving up on them every day.

I've been to Disney in Florida roughly a dozen times in the last 25 years. The cost of it never bothered me because the whole thing was a nice experience, 'magical' if you will. This last trip in January; I regret the amount we spent for the experience we had. If that was my first trip to Disney, I'd certainly never go back. Here's to hoping somebody can manage a course correction.

I don't think things are ever going to get better at the parks. There's an entire subculture of people who just go the parks all the time, so they're never going to see enough people stop going to be worried. I knew a guy in Southern California who went to Disneyland all the time. He practically lived there... But like many people he got fed up with California and so he moved... To Orlando... And now he practically lives at WDW. It's insane how many people organize their lives around going to these theme parks. If those of us who are unhappy with our occasional vacation trips say "we're not going anymore", does Disney even care? It seems like the number of people moving close to the parks so they can spend all their free time and money there is only growing.

There is no doubt that this is not what Walt's vision was. The Parks are the only place where his soul still resides. However, it was decided way back in 1984 that as long as the people will pay for it - they will charge for it. Walt and Roy have been gone for 51 years. We are lucky that the parks still have their essence and some of their dream intact.

So yes - WDW is not for middle income families or at least not annually. It can be done, but even then it's getting more difficult.

Yes they will. It will take a long time, but it will happen. It will happen as soon as the attendance drops off because people don't like the experience.

As of right now, crowds in Disney World are huge. There is absolutely no need to make the experience better. In fact, they should probably jack the prices more. Maybe start charging for Park Pass Reservations on weekends, nothing crazy, just $20 or $30 per ticket. Every time I've been included at least one weekend day, and usually two... do another 40-60 bucks they could pocket. Maybe add "Early Park Hopping" as an option where you can switch parks at noon for only 10 bucks. In a few months maybe bring back Magical Express for $50 for a round trip ticket.

Chapek has plenty of ways to squeeze more profit out of the parks. And then when he goes too far and kills this goose, the next CEO can walk in and look like a hero to the fans by backing off some very small changes. We fans will cheer the minor improvement. We will proclaim things are better at the parks.

I think we all know families whose dream is to vacation at WDW. They add up the costs of Disney hotels, parks, etc. and realize that it is too much for more than a one-time occurrence in a lifetime. As Pinsiders, we are already a subset of the population that has high-priced hobby machines. We are definitely more "monied" than the typical family that would like to visit WDW.

I try to explain to friends that there are ways to cut costs. We stay off-property, rent a house for the six in our family, bring lunches and drinks, make the most of the hours, and stay for more days (marginal costs of tickets drop dramatically). One trip for us likely costs less than a third of the costs for others.

That is one way to make it work ... but it fails when all of the costs rise substantially.

Wife gave me this today! Now to see if, by some slim chance, the Toy Story version is still available when we're at WDW next week.

PXL_20220318_203552481 (resized).jpg

You make a great deal of sense, but I take exactly the opposite approach. Our family of 4 has been to WDW probably 6 or 7 times in the last ten years, and on each trip it has gotten more and more stressful. I am a park commando and spend literally weeks prior to the trip researching Touring Plans for the best time of the year to travel, the best days to visit each park, what order should the attractions be visited, etc. Which rides can utilize single rider for shorter lines, when to buy Genie+ or ILL, etc.

Besides all that, we need to make reservations literally months in advance in order to get into the better restaurants. Because the trip is already expensive, adding in flights for 4 to Orlando, kennel costs for two dogs, airport parking for the week, park admissions, meal costs, and now a ride from the airport since Magical Express is no more, and purchase of the new "line shorteners", I feel that we really NEED to maximize our experience while there to help justify the extra cost.

We have found that the added cost of staying on property, and specifically on the monorail, can be worth it in terms of getting you into the parks quickly and maximizing your time on the rides. We tend to prefer the Polynesian, which is very expensive, but also very nice and very conveniently located. If not on property, I hate waiting for the bus to arrive, driving for ten or fifteen minutes to get to the park, and related activities. With the monorail (or maybe now the Skyliner which we have not tried), that time could be spent on rides.

I would say our family of 4 typically spends on the order of $8k or more for a week long trip. Probably closer to 10k if you add in meals, wine, etc.

With that kind of investment, I could never justify missing out on a major attraction. To commit that kind of money and not be able to ride all of the latest rides would make me crazy. I feel like I HAVE to get everything on my list done on each trip to justify the expense.

Maybe if I lived in Orlando and could make many small trips throughout the year, it would be better as you could hit the major attractions over a period of a few weeks or months, but unfortunately, we live in PA. Also unfortunately, we can't justify spending the kind of cash a WDW trip costs more than every few years give or take. We are blessed to have been able to afford to do it as often as we have in the past.

WDW has gotten more and more stressful for me with each new trip. Since by intense planning, I have been able to do everything on my to-do list up to now, I would say that in the end, the trips have all been a success. But the pre-trip stress worrying about everything being planned to the smallest detail gets worse each time. It definitely takes a lot of the fun away for us but I don't really see any solution with increasing costs, crowds, and WDW's attempts to level all times of the year so there are now no more down times.

All having been said, when it goes well, WDW is one of the most fun places in the world to visit, it's worth the money, and we totally love it. I just hope it doesn't get so bad, we are forced to give it up and go somewhere else. It's a tradition for my family that we really enjoy, and I hope to enjoy it with my grandkids in the future.

I used to be just like you. Luckily, I learned to just relax and take it easier in the parks. It is such a nicer experiences for me and my family. Not sure how you are spending 8k for one week though.

Four flights from PHL to Orlando, 7 nights at Polynesian at around 3k-5k depending on rates, 7 days meals and drinks for 4, 7 days park admissions with park hoppers times 4, airport parking, 7 nights in a kennel for our two Dobes, etc. Adds up fast!

My wife and I went to WDW last year while capacity was very limited. We used some documents from our condo in Florida to get the local resident tickets at $50 a day. We stayed in an airbnb and rented a car. There are ways to keep costs down, but it's a big headache.

They’re building a new DVC expansion at Polynesian due 2024, replacing the now-closed Spirit of Aloha dinner show location. The concept art looks like a Marriott.

Still, if the early-buy incentives are good and it’s a new condo association I will be tempted to buy an addon contract. Poly is my favorite resort.

E83F8196-B5A3-4D36-9735-54A579906771.jpeg

Looks dreadfull - same team that built the Rivera I bet.

Try renting DVC points if possible.

Still waiting to book once the DDP Disney Dining Plan aka meal plan comes back.

That’s the consensus. It looks a LOT like the scrapped Reflections resort to me.

I think there are two different philosophies concerning saving money on a Disney trip. I'm with you... More of a "time is money" guy. I want to maximize the value of my trip.

Other people are more interested in actually minimizing the amount of money they spend. They will stay off site, take shorter trips, etc.

Nothing wrong with either of these two ways of approaching it, it all depends on your circumstances. I don't live near the parks, so I have to pay for airfare whenever I go. To me, that's a sunk cost and therefore I try to maximize the value of the trip itself by staying 7 or 8 days and maximizing park time.

I will say, though, that you could cut probably $3k off your trip just by staying at pop century instead of Polynesian. They have the skyliner to 2 parks and dedicated buses to the other 2. (Meaning that the busses are not shared by other resorts).

Based on your post, you don't seem like the kind of person that wants to hang around the resort a lot anyway. I know some people hate the value resorts, so to each their own. Personally I enjoy pop century more than the deluxe resorts.

We have our first ever trip planned for end of April. Four of us, kids are teens. We were looking at staying off property and renting a car but since it’s our first time we decided to pay the price and stay on property so we’ll be in the bubble. 2 weeks at Pop, 2 days at each park and resort hopping the days in between. If we go back in the future we’ll most likely stay off property then but for the experience we are going with it. We have dining reservations some nights but not in the parks. We are going to focus on attractions and pack a lunch on park days. With flights, transportation from airport and a 1 day car rental for a beach day we are in about 7500 thus far before we even get to food and miscellaneous. Yikes.

I am glad you found a way. We can drive there, albeit 12 hours one-way. Our typical 9 day trips for 6 people run about $5k all-in, but that does not include parks every day. We build in breaks every two days to recover. We usually hit the parks 5 or 6 days.

I totally get your approach though. Cheers.

Disney does have some great mini-golf courses. Fantasia Fairways is IMHO the best course in the world and extremely challenging. Holes are meters long and attempt to resemble a real golf course. Winter-Summerland is just fun. You cant help but laugh while playing it.

Renting DVC points at the Poly is a lot cheaper than the rack rates. Points for Saratoga and OKW is even cheaper. I personally would never stay at a value again. I'd go stay at Disney Springs first.

It is NOTHING like Reflections. The sign will read Polynesian. Those two words are spelled completely differently.

Thanks for the suggestions. We had made a request for 50s building lakeside so we’ll see what we get.
In our plans we’ll be checking out Caribbean Beach around lunchtime but Sebastian’s is only open for dinner so we have other plans then but if things change well maybe get to it.
We booked through one of the popular travel companies. Cost the same as direct through Disney and they keep on eye on the specials and rebook if it’s better. None have applied to us to make it better. They helped with ADRs to make sure we got what we wanted and have helped take some of the stress off the planning. I like the planning but since we’ve never been our agent has answered all the questions I’ve had that I was confused on.

True, renting points is cheaper, but it is not for everybody, for several reasons. But yeah, if you are able to accept all the downsides of renting points, then you can end up getting a pretty good deal.

Wish I’d known about before my last trip, I love me some mini golf! Do you have to stay at a Disney resort to play or are they open to the public?

What are the downsides of renting? I've done it as a test run of buying DVC resale and it was fantastic.