(Topic ID: 299077)

Discussion and analysis of Keith Elwin's much-lauded design philosophy

By oldbaby

2 years ago


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  • 19 posts
  • 17 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by oldbaby
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

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#1 2 years ago

Some of these are his personal preferences for the type of game that he wants to make, and some of them are his general opinion of what constitutes good game design

No scoops, use up-posts instead (source: I forget where he said this)
No two flipper games, must be three flippers or more (source: https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/this-week-in-pinball-july-8th-2019/ )
He said that his games will have lots of flow and lots of state-change*. I always heard people say that the two design philosophies of pinball are flow vs. stop/start, so hearing his different pinball dichotomy was pretty fascinating. And of course, the new way of thinking of things isn't a spectrum, it's a graph with an x-axis and y-axis. (source: same as above)
No repeatable backhandable ramps (source: https://www.thepinballnetwork.net/e/final-round-pinball-podcast-ep-40-overboard/ )

Other things I've noticed:
3+ ramps on every game (counting the jump ramp on Iron Maiden: Legacy of the Beast, and the Captain Marvel ramp on the Premium version of AIQ)
Doesn't feel the need to include interactive toys on the pro model, which no one minds given that his games have highly praised geometry.
Not putting pop bumpers in the boring old "lanes above pop-bumpers" pattern.
Both Iron Maiden and AIQ have state change in the form of something that raises up out of the playfield to give access to a subway.
All three games have captive balls in one form or another.

*A definition of State-Change: When the pinball machine has a toy which causes the shots available to the player to change in some way. For example: the castle in Medieval Madness has three states. Drawbridge up, drawbridge down, gate up. Other examples: the revolving bookcase on Addams Family, Frankenstein on Monster Bash, the Balrog on Lord of the Rings, and the disappearing pop-bumper and the ringmaster on Cirqus Voltaire. I would imagine that diverters that direct a ball to a different place when a shot is made would also count, at least arguably.

#2 2 years ago

Nice compilation, he does have the freshest mind in pinball period....no offense to the other new designers but they're not even in the same zip code as Elwin, he is the true heir apparent to Lawlor. Pat always had the best pf designs in my opinion, the kind of things he dreamt up were unique and fun.

#3 2 years ago

Bring on Godzilla.

#4 2 years ago

He's batting 1000 so far. Maiden was my first NIB. Even though the themes do nothing for me I'd absolutely put a JP or AIQ in my house. I've got money ready to go for a new pin and nothing in the last year has moved the needle so I'm gonna wait til I see what Keith comes up with next.

#5 2 years ago

I think JP is the best game Stern has put out in last ten years.

#6 2 years ago

Elwin is definitely the best thing in pinball right now.

Quoted from beergut666:

He's batting 1000 so far. Maiden was my first.......I'd absolutely put a JP or AIQ in my house.

Achievement unlocked!

Later,
EV

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1 year later
#7 1 year ago

Would love to revive this thread and talk about Elwin's designs, particularly Godzilla. I'm interested if anyone has opinions about inspiration for the bottom half of the GZ playfield? Are there any older games with lower orbits like GZ? Or a single bumper in such a dangerous place?

Personally I feel Elwin's designs take more inspiration from Steve Ritchie than Pat Lawlor; lots of orbits, flow, an upper flipper.

I also feel GZ and Iron Maiden are more radically different while JP and AIQ follow more traditional playfield designs (probably because they both have bumper trios while the former do not). Lanes and bumper clusters are starting to feel passe, they don't really add much to gameplay but slow things down and make noise.

#8 1 year ago

I find the conversation about flow interesting especially compared to the flow “kings” Lawlor and Ritchie. Elwin is more like Pat. His games flow because the shots and ramps are easy to hit and naturally go from one to the other. Ritchie’s flow is not as easy to get every time. The shots are usually tighter and faster and a miss can lead to instant drain or battle to get control. Personally I prefer Ritchie flow. With Lawlor/Elwin style you have to have deep rules and deep objectives. For me it makes replay less fun as you have to chop wood to get back to the good stuff. Ritchie flow games make me feel like I’m battling the game and one wrong move leads to the drain. The objectives may be more shallow, but it’s a challenge every time to get there.

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from JakeFAttie:

Or a single bumper in such a dangerous place?

TNA comes to mind. Wouldn't be surprised if Keith was inspired by another risk-taking young designer.

#10 1 year ago

He mentioned the floating flipper on Godzilla being inspired by Doodle Bug. The pop could have been inspired by any random old EM with a pop near the ball lanes, like Old Chicago. Interestingly it was originally going to be two pops, but one was removed and the scoop was put in.

I tend to agree Keith leans more Lawlor than Ritchie, even though Keith says he hates stop and go gameplay. But when his game stops the ball, it's usually for a good reason. I love how his games build up a moment like the Hawkeye Challenge or the Destruction Jackpot shot on Godzilla. The other thing is Keith goes nuts on his wireforms vs Ritchie who is very no-thrills in his ball returns. He also always has lateral shots, much like Lawlor (trivia: name the one Lawlor game that is only two flippers)

TBH he might be the perfect sweet spot between the Ritchie and Lawlor schools of thought.

#11 1 year ago

I found it quite interesting in GZ that the game design did away with the collect extra ball shot (rather, they are just insta-awarded based on certain criteria) as well as the special award. I found it interesting because these have been such mainstays in game design over the past 2-3 decades. It's great to rethink some of these traditions and question them, and show a game can be great with out them. I am not sure if these aspects in particular are a Keith thing, or a GZ thing, but GZ is the first game I noticed this.

#12 1 year ago

Something else that is interesting about Keith games is he tends to place his slingshots more up and to the side than typical. It opens up some of the angle for lower area shots, and makes post passing slightly more challenging (though not too difficult, but noticeable)

I think he also lines up his flipper bat centers to be inline with the ball guide center, vs drooping them more or making the top of the flipper flush with the ball guide. That also makes lower side shots slightly easier.
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#13 1 year ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

(trivia: name the one Lawlor game that is only two flippers)

ooh! ooh! It's Nascar right? Good trivia question..

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from JakeFAttie:

I also feel GZ and Iron Maiden are more radically different while JP and AIQ follow more traditional playfield designs (probably because they both have bumper trios while the former do not).

Maiden has a bumper trio…

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from DNO:

Maiden has a bumper trio…

Right into his little left side ...arc? Mini Orbit? Whatever you call it that he likes.

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

The pop could have been inspired by any random old EM with a pop near the ball lanes, like Old Chicago.

The pop and Tail Whip loop above it are laid out similarly to the right side shot on Wrath Of Olympus by Riot Pinball. I'm also wondering if this single pop placement influenced the pop on TnA...

https://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wrath_of_Olympus

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#17 1 year ago

I’ve noticed that the top of the slings are a bit higher than the posts between the in lanes and outlines. It seems to promote outlane drains.

Quoted from TreyBo69:

Something else that is interesting about Keith games is he tends to place his slingshots more up and to the side than typical. It opens up some of the angle for lower area shots, and makes post passing slightly more challenging (though not too difficult, but noticeable)
I think he also lines up his flipper bat centers to be inline with the ball guide center, vs drooping them more or making the top of the flipper flush with the ball guide. That also makes lower side shots slightly easier.
[quoted image]

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from JakeFAttie:

Are there any older games with lower orbits like GZ? Or a single bumper in such a dangerous place?

You just need to look back at 60s/70s/80s games and you had heaps of games with pops down low. Check out Old Chicago for example. Or the Freedom prototype. Lots of 80s Gottliebs have single pops around the playfield too.

Quoted from JoelOmatik:

I'm also wondering if this single pop placement influenced the pop on TnA..

Look no further than Cyclopes for that inspiration.

rd

#19 1 year ago

Hey, my thread got revived! I feel more important now than I did 5 minutes ago!

Quoted from JakeFAttie:

Would love to revive this thread and talk about Elwin's designs, particularly Godzilla. I'm interested if anyone has opinions about inspiration for the bottom half of the GZ playfield? Are there any older games with lower orbits like GZ? Or a single bumper in such a dangerous place?
Personally I feel Elwin's designs take more inspiration from Steve Ritchie than Pat Lawlor; lots of orbits, flow, an upper flipper.
I also feel GZ and Iron Maiden are more radically different while JP and AIQ follow more traditional playfield designs (probably because they both have bumper trios while the former do not). Lanes and bumper clusters are starting to feel passe, they don't really add much to gameplay but slow things down and make noise.

The tail whip shot reminds me a little of the spinner shot on Meteor from 1979. For those who don't know, Meteor has a shot that ricochets off a rubber and a target and then back to the flipper. Or something like that, it's been a while. I forget if he ever explicitly mentioned Meteor as an inspiration anywhere. He may have.

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