The question you can’t answer with confidence is if that would lead to actual higher returns.

Case in point... Dialed in was that “unleash the beast” project... and it didn’t lead to runaway sales.

TZ was too... and it wasn’t the market success.

Gary rightful believes without location pinball there is no “next generation of buyers”

If oins are only in basements- there is no (or a greatly reduced) feeder network for growing new buyers

How are minorities going to afford a pinball if Stern keeps raising the prices?

Mandolorian could be the a huge hit. Good luck to all involved to make it happen. Bells and whistles.

He is 100% correct but I think he has already found that audience if you look at demand outstripping supply right now.

He has more people buying than he can support (nice problem to have BTW).

Good point... Dialed in is pretty awesome though.

Theme kind of sucks the life out of it, if the theme was cooler it would have been an all time great game.

What is wrong with that is approximately 10 million dollars. They are a business, not a charity. Let's take it a step further. Why can't both Stern and JJP be non-profit organizations? What is so wrong with that?

Disingenuous at best. Selling LOTR at $3500 worked so well that a few years later an investor had to come in or they would've went out of business. They still offer the Pro at around the 5k price point. Does it have less in it than LOTR? Yes. Why? Because they want to stay in business. I know nothing about their internal numbers, but I believe Gary has said they make next to nothing on the Pros. They keep them at that price for the operator market.

What does JJP have at that price point? Nothing. Why? They wouldn't be able to make any money at it.

As far as the "inferior" stuff goes, my opinion:

- Decals are better than direct print. More consistent, higher def, easier to repair/replace if damaged. Plus from a manufacturing standpoint they make about 1000 times more sense.

- I prefer the metal head to the fully wooden one. You still get the head art, things are lighter, easier to repair the head side if damaged, etc. Again, all upside. Not just for the manufacturer but the consumer.

- The lockdown bar locks down better with the latches. It is solid and doesn't move. It is more inconvenient to take in and out, but we are talking 5 seconds vs two seconds.

- Cheaper quality playfields? Highly debatable. I know, people use the "back in my day you could drop a ballpeen hammer from 200 feet and it wouldn't make a scratch" anecdotal type story, but I haven't seen any actual evidence that their playfields are materially different than they were in 2003, and that if they are it is because Stern decided to save some cash. Problematic clear coats over the last couple of years, absolutely. JJP has this problem too though, so let's keep the finger pointing equal.

Agreed thoose things just gets cheaper and cheaper. But honestly, how much does mechs cost?
I would be seriously surprised if stern bom for a spinning pizza is more then 50$.
Add five more items like that and your game should only go up a 500$ tops and people would call it woz-loaded.

The reason thoose five mechs isn"t added, is simply laziness and they dont need to, cause the game sells anyway.

I'm really looking forward to the pinball future. More companies, more competition and no more souless barren games.

The problem with dialed is the theme is terrible, besides the disaster voices poorly executed. There is no fun point or prize completing stuff.
The scoring which is left, due to lack of interesting story progression, is so unbalanced, you end up doing just one thing.

Tron 82 and would please help?

Please...

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What is the reason for this? Was it targeted at coin op/gambling/gaming? Imports in General or just specifically pinball?

But what about those of us that collect both??

But you are right, aside from the couple pinheads I've met on here or RGP back in the day, none of my friends know anything about pinball other than 'those are cool i love pinball! How much do they cost a grand or so?' Hah. I am embarrassed to even tell people how much they cost because I feel like it makes me look like an asshole.

Ice, for one, doesn't count. Sorry, but he represents the extreme high end of buyers. Honestly I do not know who is buying all these games sight unseen.

Lol - if you read the opening post, he’s talking about one game per year.

Not me. I was 8 years old once. My father couldn't afford to buy me Hot Wheels cars like the other boys had. But now I can afford pins, most preferably ones that shoot well.

Yeah he did. He turned into a bad joke mess.

restriction? so a game about car racing and u would take hot wheels over MadMax or GTA. But this is to be expected with the pinball dorks, I mean collect what u want but if ur so into hot wheels at this point that u welcome a pinball machine with that theme then not sure what to say. Man I question the themes all the time cause they stink but all I have to do is look at footage of a pinball convention and it becomes quite clear.

Not exactly buddy.

As Radiohead said in a song « i want a perfect body, i want a perfect soul »
Well, he wants all perfect!. As i do.

Then, i want perfect layout, a perfect loaded game, a perfect code, a perfect theme, a perfect fun game,...then i buy it, whatever the company...(mais sans cette nouvelle taxe a la con évidemment)

There is no feeder network in general because Stern's marketing is dogshit. It's the same thing every game. Deadflip/Ign ain't cutting it no more. JJp sending a wonka to the slo mo guys is the right way to grow new buyers

Ok.. I jumped back in the hobby last year. Bought two NIB pins (only because the price rivaled used prices). This year i bought a sweet used pin with mods.. great price beautiful machine. And recently traded a pin with some cash for another NIB. Guess how many NIB pins I planned on buying.. zero. I only ended up with them because the price was right. I dont buy pins without playing them, nor do I like to be an early adopter while the glitches are being worked out. Right now I've accepted that a stern pro is 5k used and 6k or more new. I also accepted that I won't ever buy a NIB pin for 9k-15k. I dont care how earth shattering it is. Pricrs are insane. I dont know what everyone is looking for. These pins aren't lacking. Yes some are better than others, but very few fall flat. If u are looking for bang for the buck, I think pinball is the wrong hobby despite the fact that games don't seem to lose much value. Being newly back into the hobby I can see there is a clear line between the haves and have nots. I hope the prices stay as low as possible and I can afford to stay involved. I for one say thank u to Stern for the fun games in my collection. If I was excited about a pinball company it is American. Had an Oktoberfest - solid build, really nice. Just kinda slow and not much use of the best toys in the game for the average player. My family was terribly bored with hot wheels. And Houdini was fine but tough shooter. If they find a couple strong themes and work on the design aspect a little more.. American can crush it. Maybe do something with the head.. little odd looking.

You got a thumbs up from me solely on the NL Christmas reference. Even read it in Clark's exasperated voice xD ....!

And you got a thumb up from me because you made me laugh my ass off!

Yep, US pinball sales are dead in Europe until this tariff ends. I had a recent console order from the US (Analogue.co), and all-in paid 50% extra (including 'usual' 20% import taxes). The 25% tariff is on goods value AND shipping cost, then the 20% is charged on THAT total. What a rip-off consumer tax

From a UK perspective, a mini-trade deal with the US is imminent which will END this (and other) tariffs here, presumably from 1/1/21 when we leave the EU single market. Together with removal of other EU protectionist measures, the UK might be buying a lot more from the US imminently, and hopefully in the other direction too

Viva free markets!!

I want a perfect playfield, I want a perfect soul.

I would like to know a little bit of what's coming. One of My favorite parts of collecting comics was a book called previews. It was an order book, for two months ahead.

It was the anticipation. I can only guess what is next today in pinball. This is ok, but only a little bit, for me.

But I will always be dropping my quarters in good pinball.

We always know. GnR and Zeppelin were known months before. Every game in the last 5 or so yrs has been pretty well a sealed deal long before the official announcement. Ur not gonna get a preview book that's for sure.

One comment, from about the late '70s through the early '90s:
"WWWD?"

At that moment in time, the "W" made great solid games with unique titles and much of that stock is still running and performing well - now with 30+ years of use and abuse. With few of the issues that today Stern owners have complained about for the last many years.

Find a historic template for success in your industry, make product, production and customer issue adjustments applicable to today's demands and standards, charge what the market will bear, and then rinse-and-repeat.

I worked for 20+ years for two major construction equipment manufacturers.
We used to say "there is never a BOM that we (and our shareholders) can't like."
Adjustments to BOMs and vendor-supplied parts prices were NOT unusual, for said reasons.

G&R is not loaded with mechanical devices there is the multiball locking device and the record not exactly toy heavy. If bling is your thing buy G&R plus LZ music is a 10 G&R is a 6 or 7 at best

If you truly think Stern owes than you are acting quite entitled go shopping at AP CGC JJP saying that Stern needs to make this game for you speaks volumes and you should really stop bitching about them

Higher BOM doesn’t have to mean finicky unique mechs. It can mean not skimping on standard reliable mechs that used to be pretty standard- kickback, knocker, more drops, divertors, Vuks. But when even the Premiums skimp on this stuff and top out at ~15 coils it’s a real drag.

I can appreciate this, I was thinking of buying anything new Stern (the last was SW premium) while I've played all their games they just seem very same (Elvira or BM66 probably the better two but they still seem very cost constrained).

I know I'm partial to the pins I own and I love Stern pins but they can not compare to the quality (IMO) of CGC or JJP pins with the mechs and build quality. I find myself reluctant to sell my Stern Sam pins for newer Spike games.

I am looking at Alien (metal ramps, wide body 4 flippers etc..) for just a bit over the cost of a Stern premium.

I don't know Stern's BOM numbers, how many games they actually sell, or what their real estate, employee, and equipment costs are. Nobody in this thread does, let's be honest.

I can say this: I get where Ice is coming from, and I don't think it's really a BOM problem. Or, to be more precise, I don't think you can simply throw money at the parts list to fix it.

I've talked with numerous people who work at Stern over the years. They all paint a similar picture for me. They'd love to make games that captured more of that 90s Bally Williams magic, but they simply aren't give the time to do it. People expect deeper code than the 90s games had, and the programmers are given less time to do it.

It's not so much a budget problem as it's a creativity problem. Sure, a few hundred bucks more in parts would probably be great to have to get ambitious with. But if you ask me the way to get what Ice wants isn't to open the wallet for the BOM, it's to be willing to pay the people to take their time with a special game.

Pick a license with some freedom (the opposite of LZ), give your artists time to do good work, give your programmer time to really develop something, and sure, open the BOM a little for the game designer. But it doesn't need to cost that much more I suspect, you just need to be willing to wait a little longer for that one special cornerstone every year to try and blow the doors off.

This is the real sauce at JJP. They work longer on their games. Stern can't compete with the effort of JJP not because they don't have smart and good people, but because they pump out the games so much faster.

For all the issues we had making Alien we did have one advantage: the long development time meant there was room to let the programmers think things through, for David Thiel to get the sound right, for us to talk and think thing through. It's not a perfect game, but everyone seems to agree the immersion and atmosphere is great. That came out of having the time to sweat the details. For all the things that could still improve, and whatever the future holds for the game now, the thing that makes it work is a team being given free rein to care.

Sorry but this is really boring now. JJP releases a game and everyone ohhs and ahhs over the flashing lights and pretty toys then the next Stern release gets lambasted for not following suit, then it becomes clear the Stern game is a better player and within a year its a much more sought after pin. Another year goes where Stern gets praised cause they have 3 to 5 games out to every one of JJP and until the next "golden pin" everything is fine. Rinse and repeat. Holy shit, buy which pins u like and STFU. The only reason this is such a big deal in cause u old farts with Zeppelin lust didn't get the same supposed live experience horseshit ur getting from GnR. Who gives a shit.

WWWD? They would go out of business because their model was unstainable.

From a financial/longevity perspective, nobody comes even close to what Gary Stern has achieved. Nobody.

BOM costs are a fraction of what determines cash flow/profit. Even Gary has said the thing he learned most from his father was the cost of inventory days aged. I don't see that discussed in all of these "Why doesn't Stern/JJP/CGC/DR/etc.", do. Just the direct costs.

Anyone who has been successful in financial operations knows it's your overhead that makes or breaks you, not your direct costs. And as for WMS, their "template" didn't last did it? Otherwise they would still be making pins today.

Omfg. If I could decipher what you are saying I’d give an intelligent reply. Instead I’ll go with an emoji:

I agree with Aurich. I'm probably in the minority, but I honestly only like 3-4 games from Stern since LOTR. They all feel...samey, and cheap. It is something I noticed in 2003-4 when I basically walked away from buying anything new because nothing called to me and prices started going up. It wasn't until the TBL announcement that I started looking again. I've went back through the Stern catalog and little has changed on that front. Admittedly, I haven't played anything from 2020, and 2 games from 2019. I've said it before, it doesn't take that much game to throw quarters at it. It doesn't mean they are bad, but it's an entirely different state of mind and requirements to BUY a game vs. just playing one.

One would assume that with all the new companies out there pulling money, Stern would be putting their best foot forward, and maybe they have recently. I mean, I'm not sure you can compare LZ to others because that LZ license probably cost them a pretty penny, AND they are probably very limited in what resources they can actually use. Same with The Beatles pin, but in the end, that is all just a portion of the overall game. Time to make it good and refine it and let the ideas flow is crucial. It is pretty much the same equivalent to why many bands sophomore efforts are lackluster. They had their entire lives up to that point to fine tune their songs, and the 2nd album is rushed because 'contracts'.

If you are not happy with Stern I suggest you step up and ask AP CGC JJP as Stern is going to disregard you. Second Gary cut the market into three segments the collectors not being even half the market try again

The irony is back when Stern was putting out only 2 games a year people bitched that they only put out 2 games a year

The prices started going up when the LE games came to play and the fripers showed what people would pay

This is posted on the LZ vs G&R thread "How much more could it have cost JJP to have the full color hot rails on an SE? Same install etc..
The bean counters at JJP cut maybe a $100 of Chinese made bulbs out of the machine.
Just doesn’t make sense as they would sell more SE if they had them or maybe that was really the agenda, wow people with the light show to force them up to the LE." can anyone see the irony

I wrote those comments and it’s true.

If your are going to go through the trouble of putting the hot rail in the se why not the real full color hot rail? It isn’t any more difficult and the lights are cheap as shit.

I for one prefer the play of the SE but the light show isn’t the same so I probably won’t buy it. I’d gladly pay the extra $100, Keith also said it isn’t strictly a programming issue either.

I give Stern some credit for making their new expression lighting available for the pro model and theirs is more difficult as they had to cut all the cabs.

It’s an intentional differentiator - doubtful it is anything about costs.

The market for Pros are primarily targeted at casual players on location who will literally not notice the difference. Most casuals are not even aware that pinball has rules much less if a game has a spinner instead of a ramp. However, the price difference will be critical to the person who owns the route and is trying to recoup their $6,000 investment on 50¢ a play with a 50% split with the location. With that math, it's 24,000 plays just to break even on the game.

I hear these arguments a lot but I don't think people understand the true cost to bring a product to market. As an example, it costs just 16¢ in coffee to make a cappuccino. However, it retails for $3.65 at Starbucks because of the staff, management, administration, rent, insurance, and marketing. A wire form ramp may be under 10 bucks but any business is going to need to push you to the higher-margin products (Premium and LE) to increase revenue. 300 people are a lot of salaries and a lot of company benefits. Those people, as they stay longer at the company, will also expect raises. The costs add up quickly.

Imagine how much profit is in one NIB game. Now divide that number by 300 paychecks and 50% of the rent and that's how many games you have to sell to just stay afloat. You have to hit this number every two weeks without fail. Now imagine the cost of dragging a dozen games to a convention, putting up a handful of people in the hotel with per diem, and also covering the cost of the floor space which is over $20k. Now you have to sell even more games.

It's not about the cost of a certain part(s), it's about the whole enchilada.