I agree, and have stopped buying Stern. If they don't care, fine. I care as it's my wallet.

As I said, the question is- how big does Stern want to be? How successful and rich?

I've got limited space and $. I'm looking for new games that are BETTER than what I've got. Stern's competition have been raising the bar, so I've been buying those instead.

I’m totally with you on this Ice. But the problem is, as so many in this thread have noted, that Stern is killing it with sales right now and can’t meet their own demand.

With that in mind, what is Stern’s financial motivation to modify the current formula?

Too much demand means time on the production line is worth more. In that case, you either expand your production line or raise the price of the capacity you have. Time for Stern to go all in and raise the bar. Sure, raise the price, but let’s keep that production line busy with higher value stuff.

If your capacity is fixed at 10000 games a year, with demand at 15000 games a year, do you make 10000 *$12k games or 10000 at $6k games?

The issue is the operators. Why would they want to add to their cost and reduce their margins?

I am tired of the BOM excuse, just tell me it will cost x more to make a great game, price will only go up but hard to believe for a few hundred bucks more we could get a better game, or just add more to the premium and LE models as it should have in the first place

The BOM excuse from Stern comes across as BS. Stern investors likely have a figure in mind of X amount of dollars they want to make per game. If JJP is making games with more in them, and overall using higher quality parts for the same price (premiums and LE's) that tells you they make less per game then Stern.

Let's say JJP makes $3k per LE and they happy with that. Well Stern may not be happy with $3k per LE and instead demand $4k - $5k profit per LE. That sounds like greed versus just being happy with making a decent profit while putting out a quality product. Its possible Stern could make JJP loaded titles and generate a profit of $60 million a year versus $70 million (just an example) using today's build methods. What is so wrong about that?

Games like LOTR were loaded and sold for $3500 about 15 - 17 years ago. Inflation takes that $3500 to about $5k in 2020 dollars. Do premiums today cost $5k? No. They now cost around $7500, they have decals vs direct printed cabinets, cheaper quality parts, heads made with 2 pieces of wood and metal, no proper lockdown bar, cheaper quality playfields, etc.

So yes the BOM excuse at the prices Stern is charging today doesn't fly. Consumers can buy similar priced games from JJP with higher quality parts, more features, more code work, etc...something doesn't add up. Theres no reason customers should have to pay $15k for a Stern LE that is comparable to a JJP LE that cost $9.5k. What so Stern can make a $5k profit versus $3k? Forget that.

Hallelujah! Holy sh*t! Where’s the Tylenol?

Totally this. Stern is improving, but others are better. I want the best.

Just because Skoda is successful doesn't mean I don't want a Rolls-Royce Phantom instead, even if the Skoda has a Rolls-Royce bumper sticker.

Edit: I say this because I want more from Stern - I'm not hating on them. We all want pinball to thrive and succeed, as I said earlier! Given the much higher prices nowadays (remember Tron LE for 5k?), I think it's reasonable for consumers to be more demanding

Like Hot Wheels.
Its a theme geared towards 8 year old boys. I don't care if its a shooter or not that will kill it for me.

Costs are getting too high for me as is. Raising the price is not the answer. The truth is that it’s about implementation.

Agreed. Value for money has declined sharply. This is a big part of the problem.

How so? Sure the quality of the materials has declined but the fun factor of the games has increased. In an earlier post someone was saying how lotr was packed and cost less compared to newer games like JP. Fact of the matter is while I think lotr is a classic and a masterpiece. It doesn't hold water in the are of gameplay compared to newer sterns like JP and DP.
Also, if you look at the marketplace, the games are holding their value pretty nicely.
A pin is a luxury good. There is nothing value about it.

Maybe Covid will change some of these issues...

Stern has always looked at operator sales and that is one of the reasons BOM is kept low on Pros... they cant price them out of range for Ops to make money off them.

Now that operating pinball on location isnt happening or will probably be happening less maybe they will focus more on the home market?

Ops want a low issue cheap as possible game that will make money... thats what they get usually with a pro.

I am not sure I understand this?

This is just temporary. Once Covid vaccine is fully deployed pinball will be all around again. Stern shouldn't change that strategy. They have new people in the market right now filling the operator gap with travel money. Once Covid is gone that will shift back to operator purchases.

There comes a hard days for pinball in 2021, in Europe just put a new import taxes of a 25% and the new prices por pinballs are aprox:

Stern:
Pro: 7350€----8900USD
Premium: 10000€----12000USD
LE:12500€----15000USD

Jersey:
SE:9500€----11500USD
LE: 12750€----155000USD

This it's insane!!!!!!!!

TERRIBLE IDEA

Targeting the end of the market that has infinite funds at the expense of the average enthusiast that can only stomach 5-10k in pin budget a year is a terrible long term strategy. Short term it could provide higher returns but it will gradually shrink the market and when those high end buyers move on to a different hobby they will be left wondering what happened. Stern should figure out how to make the best quality/most fun games at the lowest possible cost. That should always be the goal.

They need to focus on the parts of a pinball machine that don’t directly go up in cost as quality improves.

- layout
- art
- code
- lighting

There are an infinite number of untapped possibilities just with the above, you don’t need expensive and unreliable mechanics to Make pinball interesting deep or fun.

I am also a big fan of the idea of modular upgrades. If I buy a pro I should be able to eventually piece by piece upgrade to a premium (minus art) - though it may cost me a little more.

Things like toppers are a good way for them to squeeze dollars out of the top end of the market without fucking over the rest of us.

I doubt it... much like restaurants so many locations are going to go under that it will take some time to come back.

It may never come back to where it was... "fully deployed" could be two years.

I think Stern has always seen themselves as operators first and home second... that switched this year.

Like allot of companies they found out this year that they can still sell a ton of games when locations arent buying.

No its not... there are way more "rich people" in the hobby than you think and more and more get in every day.

Why do you think LEs sell out every run?

If your pin budget is 5-10K a year you arent their market to begin with.

Because they only make 500-1000, and half of those buyers do it as an investment/resale value strategy... meaning you can’t easily increase production numbers. Once LEs are not hard to get they won’t sell. Also how is 10k a year not in the market for a product that currently costs 5-9k? Get real

They arent trying to sell pins to someone who can afford one pin a year.

They want collectors and people with a house full of pins.

They put out 4 or 5 a year.. this is what 25-50k in disposable income a year to spend on a toy?

Most people I know with "collections" have over 100K in them.. that is their market.

LOL this thread was started because of a Gary Stern interview in that interview Gary states %40-%50 of his sales are to those who put games on route. Ownership was broken into %40-%50 on route the man cave people and the collector the last two were not broken down by %. To screw over the people who buy half your games is just stupid just look at JJP they are trying to get a piece of that market. go to the 1 hr mark https://superawesomepinballshow.libsyn.com/the-super-awesome-pinball-show-s01-e20

No way, I guarantee that the majority of NIB stern buyers buy less than 1 game a year. even a 100k collection is only 7 of these Unlimited bom games... it’s not like they are all bought in one year. stern sales are up because of new people coming into the hobby because of a current trend and covid.

Even the people who say they have stopped buying Stern still come on to bitch

Like allot of businesses Stern has been doing things one way forever so its hard for then to think any different.

They were selling to operators when there was no home market.... Gary will always think Ops are "the business" because he is old school.

All I am saying is now with sales up when operators aren't buying that may make them pivot to catering more to home buyers faster than they ever would have otherwise.

Same kind of adjustments many business have to make if they are going to stay viable during covid.

This is a piss poor analogy if you bench the players you are still spending the money on them. The better comparison would be they could afford Michael Jordan, Lebron James and Tim Duncan but did not pay up

be a pretty shitty business if their goal was to sell less than one pin a year to everyone.

I can assure you as someone who knows a few dealers personally that you are wrong.

Most people in the hobby buy multiple games a year and most times multiple at a time. I know many people with every single new Stern from the last two years in a row (LEs even)

You have noticed that their games are sold out and backordered?

You think thats all from single buyers picking up one game each all year?

The big distro in the north-east has 3 JJP games for sale only one does he charge shipping that tells me Jack is pinching the distro's pockets and that the margins may be poor on each G&R https://www.pinballsandgames.com

I agree that many people buy multiple NIB games a year. I bought 4 NIb in 2020. But it’s not the majority. It’s not how business works. It could add up to more than 50% of sales but it’s not 50% of customers. Many people buy a NIB every other year or so with used market games bought in between. It’s a revolving door of buyers with some cash cows in between.

It’s more likely something like

5% of customers - 4 per year
15% of customers 3 per year
20% of customers 2 per year
Etc

Its the exact opposite of what you think it is.. honestly.

May depend on area or demographics but for the people I know they have a house full of pins and consider buying every new one that comes out.

Here’s your typical business-owner superiority complex post. You’re right. I’m not a business owner, but neither of us own Stern. As a consumer, I want as much as I can get for as little as possible. Did you think that that philosophy should only work in the business owner’s favor?

No it’s not, you’re not even factoring the used game market and the fact that there are multiple other manufacturers as well.

Someone who buys 4 NIB LEs a year is only buying 50% of stern titles (2 stern, 1 jjp, 1 CGC or other) that’s a 12 game 100k+ collection built in less than three years yet only 50% of stern games purchases.

OK I give up .. we can agree to disagree.

There is no business on the planet that looks at their core market as the ones who buy the least.

It’s not their core market but it still accounts for around 50% of sales, it’s the case for every retail business out there. You don’t think someone that buys a new MacBook pro every other year is a core apple customer?

Its not a superiority complex.. its math that most people dont seem to get.

The assumption here is that they are making this huge margin per game by "cheating" home buyers out of features etc.

They arent.. they are in a small margin volume business. They need to sell as many as possible.

And yes.. as a business they want to make money.

Of course being that you are a pin collector you will know people with collections Try talking pins with people who own 8 Harley Davidsons they will just look at you funny your pin world is a small bubble. There are around 400 a week made across the entire globe that is a nitch hobby

Ritchie ruined no such thing with his voice work.

yah but I also know the dealers that sell to these people and I can tell you they dont just buy one a year... its actually rare for someone to buy one and then disappear for a year.

One or two a year would actually be considered a bad customer.

Its a low margin high volume business... if it was just selling one here and one there it wouldnt exist.

Its an expensive hobby and there are no lack of people in it that can afford to buy whatever they want ( and do).

I am a bad customer

Unknown-4 (resized).jpeg

You cant compare a computer which everyone needs to a toy that costs 5K..

computers are also meant to last a few years its not something you buy on a whim.

Plus pins are designed to get you excited about every new one that comes up.. why do you think they spend so much on licensing.

Its a low margin business so they need to move lots of games to make money... dealers and Stern.

I am sure they love you anyways.

I am a bad customer too since I hate buying NIB and I never buy without playing first

You know the majority of Hot Wheels are purchased and collected by grown men right?

Its a theme with no age limit.. Only those who Self impose a restriction upon having fun will see it as a "kids" game.

I understand that they’re in business to make money. As long as they play by the rules (taxes, work conditions, etc.), I certainly don’t begrudge them making as much money as the market will bear. I’m just saying that as a consumer, I champion our side (not theirs) in terms of getting as much as possible for as little as possible. With consumers looking out for themselves and businesses looking out for themselves, isn’t that where price discovery is truly found?

Since their games are selling out and there are backorders on most games I would think they are already there.

I dont see much motivation for them to change unless sales drop which hasnt happened.

They run pretty thin already.. cant add more to games without charging more.

Not everyone is into the whole "more is better", "world under glass", "diorama with lights" mentality. More mechs equals more issues. More issues means less time playing pinball and more time "dialing in" the mechs, fixing them, etc. Most unique mechs become stale after a few weeks of play. Hitting a scoop and watching movie scenes becomes a bore (if you like playing pinball rather than watching a movie).

Stern, imo, strikes the right balance of gameplay vs. "too much stuff" on the playfield. They've produced toppers and mods for every recent game for the diorama-type folks while giving players some fun rules (not just multiball fests) and reliable machines. And the flipper feel is far and away the best in the industry.

From a business owners viewpoint, why on earth would stern change their practices? They are making great profits, selling out, and the owner is not getting any younger. To increase capacity would cost millions, how long will it take to recoup that? And if you make an elitist title and it doesn't sell, you're in big trouble.

"
On the first day of owning the machine, the ball got stuck. During the ball-check, I heard something medal fall inside the machine itself. After opening it up, I found this piece of metal and these 3 screws. I looked around for something obvious, but couldn't find anything. Machine seems to play fine, but I'd like to know where this stuff fell from.

Yes! The same thing happened to me with the same parts!

Same thing happened to us, I called JJP and they said there is a kit they are sending out because the new hires didn't put it together all the way, It goes behind a coil on the left side, JJP is on it!!!"

From other JJP threads

Higher quality the newest game needs a fix kit for a habitual break and there are few game out. Please send the link to where Stern uses BOM as an excuse. LOL It is funny as shit that you think you know JJP's bottom line