Look at the reflection of the orange standups on the left and the DMD in the second photo. No 'evened out dimples' will be that flat. 'evened out dimples' would also mean the wood would be lower than the inserts.
It's not uncommon for playfields to take dents and eventually look like orange peel. But they were not craters.
The problem is people pick the argument they want to make vs addressing the points made.
It's not 'no dimples vs dimples'. Wood dents.. everyone knows this. Yes, the more dents you have, the less obvious one dent is. So the point of 'all playfields dimple' is true.. but irrelevant to the points raised.
The point of concern is when you see the SEVERITY of these dents and their rate of appearance. When a game 2 weeks old looks like it has more ball play than games 4-5 years old.. that is not the same as things have been.
But no amount of 'leveling out' from more hits will bring height BACK up. So when you have crater impacts (not simple dents).. that spot will be lower.. period. We aren't looking at 20 year old games that have had their PF surface smashed down uniformly to these degrees.
magnets show that anything can be dented.. but are a poor analog to what to expect with the PF as a whole. Magnets have always worn worse than the rest of the PF because they throw and slam the ball into itself.
Quoted from vid1900:
Old EM playfields may seem **better** because they are super low gloss and the balls travel at a much slower velocity than modern games
The only thing that matters for this is how far the ball drops. You can say faster games = more airballs.. but now you are back to comparing 80s and 90s games to the current games. Or maybe Stern's mechanical designs are leading to more airballs, even at a hop scale instead of glass-smashers... but certainly something has changed.
Older games look like orange peel. While waiting around in league last night, I made a point to look at the various games. Ranges of everything from 80s solid state, WPC, and modern sterns. Games like LaserCue, Shadow... they look like orange peal paint. You can see the imperfections but the impressions on the playfield are very very shallow. You can only really see it in reflections and its just small deviations.
This.. is not small deviations
Design or materials... this thing is going to chew itself up.
Quoted from CaptainNeo:
you are missing what people are trying to tell you completely
No, you are just repeatedly skipping over what I'm saying. It's not about the presence of dimples or not.. its about the severity of the dents (aka DEPTH). Hence why I said "...are very very shallow". Evening out doesn't bring surfaces back up.. and evening out doesn't somehow mask the transition between worn areas and areas that won't compress (like inserts).
You can't smash a PF surface down 1 mil and say 'it will even out'.. because that 1 mil depression will never come back up. Evening out only brings everything down to that level and rounds out transitions. These examples of properly broken in playfields with orange people do not have playing surfaces pushed down. The amount of compression from the thousands of plays and hits are small, hence why the difference between untouched areas and wear areas only shows itself as orange peal.. and not two levels.
That's why I keep saying its not about DIMPLES or not.. this situation is about SEVERITY of those dents and the rate at which they are appearing. The picture is to show the size and depth of the dents. You aren't going to even out craters.
We all know playfield wood dents.. I've been talking about how BIG the hits are in these new fields. Big hits = deeper depressions. Deeper depression = more transition and less likely to even out.
Quoted from cody_chunn:
Is that a real magnet? It looks to me like a 'metallic-looking' decal over wood...like Addams...
How does real steel get divots like that? I haven't seen divots like that before on exposed magnet poles.
The new magnets have a large 'ring' head. The larger surface makes it much more noticeable when it gets nicks and dents. Magnet cores have always been softer than the balls themselves and wear. The new design just makes it much more cosmetically noticeable.
Quoted from pintechev:
The dimples on the older games are all normalized together. On that Batman they stick out like a sore thumb because there are few, and there's a lot of wood that hasn't yet compressed. Over time it will look like the other games.
The point is the size of the hits.. not the pattern they form. More hits only hides the distinction between an area hit or not. It will not bring the surface back up. When you have a 1mil dent in your PF.. nothing will bring that surface back up to the level of the inserts.
The severity of the impacts here is the concern... not 'pristine' vs 'worn'.
Quoted from CaptainNeo:
i get you think it's more severe now than it was. And i'm telling you they are NOT. It's exactly the same. they are just as deep as they always have been. You just don't realize it, because you were not there back in the early 90's when the stuff showed up brand new.
I was.. I was not only present, but I've been part of organized pinball for over 20 years. Ever heard of FSPA? Yeah, I was there at the start.. and I was on RGP back then as well (from about 1993). So drop the n00b angle. In fact, I have vague memories of when YOU showed up in the scene.. so whatever.
Quoted from jwilson:
My game is about what you should expect. Personally I think the recent Sterns look worse in terms of the ghosting and clear chipping, so buyers should be concerned. Dimples? Show me a GB or BM66 after 2K plays and we'll compare.
TRON has no magnets, though. Maybe that makes a difference.
But the zuse targets do cause airballs at times and the disc really throws the ball hard at times. Your photos are as you say.. more of what you'd expect as a game has been played.
But the ruling council has spoken.. there is nothing to see here.. nothing has changed. All our games have grown out of their crater and potato chip clear phases right under our noses and we never noticed it or knew it was happening.
Remember when games wore to the wood... little did you know there was a whole phase of the clear smashing and chipping, and delaminating.. that all happened in that very spot.. you just never knew it!!
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