Decent analysis vid.

Probably the same one Stern used for their price increases.

Curious, how do JJP or Spooky playfields look after a couple of plays? Would love to see some pics.

Here is the day you unbox it:

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And here it is a few months latter will millions of dimples:

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all I see is a shitload of wood grain, which stands out more than dimples ever do.

Still no takers on the ball drop challenge but I did get 2 more downvotes.

You saw the ball drop under the Shadow apron, yeah?

Yes but was that from 2" or 2'. That is only one playfield with nothing to compare it to. I suggest a test from the exact same distances on several playfields of different eras. I have a original Gorgar, a CPR silver knight, and the original playfield from the black knight I would be willing to test under both aprons if someone with a newer Stern will be willing to do the same. I also have a Chicago coin EM machine at my other place I could also do next time I make the trip.

anyone have a speakeasy with the bally plastic playfield? Lets see if that dimples. )

Nice tip Vid! Exactly what clear should I use? My Met PRO is coming and I would like to do this to the outhole area. Thanks!!!

Cliffy sells a protector for the outhole.

I put a piece of mylar down first, then I put the cliffy on.

Here's a video showing the protector for the

Very nice! Thanks!

Some people think dimples are cute.......

Found a WOZ offered for sale with 160 plays (playfield protector installed)

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This is ac/dc after a few thousand plays whats your point

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Somebody asked for pics and he shared them. Easy on the trigger, Mr. Stern Defender.

Take a second look he quoted his own post he was not answering a others post

Is there additional mylar over those inserts on AC/DC, or is the album multiball insert lifting?

Oh, yeah, it's his own question, but he found the pics and then posted them to save anybody else the trouble. Sometimes when you ask a question, if you find the answer first, you post it so people don't waste time looking for you. It's a common courtesy.

I think its just the edge. before the days of thick clearcoat on everything seeing the edge is normal and not necessarily lifting.

Mine isn't that way, but I have a premium. Did they get an extra coat over the pro?

I found this very informative - I'm neither a newbie or a pansy, but recently bought my first low play pin (GB pro), after 10 years of owning well used W/B or Sterns that had each passed through at least 2 or more hands (most have been routed) before getting to me.

When I picked up the GB it only had about 50 plays on it, so I've been watching the dimples develop as I play it - but since I just planned to keep it for a long time it really did not bother me. But I had no idea that continued play would eventually even it out and make it less noticeable.

Vid and others, thanks for the education.

Sorry, I call B.S. if that's the case shouldn't my documented HUO STtng with 1092 plays. That launches balls from cannons directly at the playfield. Look like this BM66?

Instead of how it actually looks? A few minor dimples here and there. Only noticable at a certain light. And mostly by stand up targets. But not major crators all over the place.
And I have added microscopic dimples while playing it. But they look nothing like a modern Stern's playdough.

Because you can't tell me it's entirely evened out after 1000 plays.

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Wow is that a picture of the moon?

You are joking right?

Look at the SOLID STEEL magnet core.

See how it's starting to become dimpled?

If solid steel is dimpling under those hardened steel balls, how could the maple wood fare any better ?????

What wood is harder than solid steel?

LOL

I'm not saying wood is harder than steel. I'm calling B. S. On "all playfields dimple the same"
Because they obviously and provenly don't.

You are over thinking it. All "woods" of the same type do dimple the same. Take the term "playfield" out of the equation. It's just confusing people. Playfields made of different wood could dimple differently. Those made of the same wood will not dimple differnetly.

Do we have to refer back to the Janka hardness page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test

It's science.

I'll take the apron off of any unrestored game you have (in order to find a section of uncompressed maple), drop a ball from the same height, and it will leave the same dimple as it will on any other game.

If you have a playfield that won't dimple, I'll send it to a lab at my expense to have it analyzed, like an old Stradivarius.

I'm only going to worry about dimples when the craters become so big the ball doesn't have enough momentum to leave the crater and gets stuck in the middle of the playfield.

I'm not it saying it won't dimple. I'm saying they do not dimple to the same extent. Do you have a new Stern?

If you do, let's do an experiment. I will remove the apron from my STTNG. And get a paper towel tube and drop it down it directly on the playfield.
Do the same with any modern Stern. Let's see if all playfields are created equal. And dimple equally.

Because according to your experience my playfield should look the same.
Which it obviously currently doesn't. And never will.

There is too many dimple threads I can't keep track. I'm in the playfield hardness is lower on some machines and they are more susceptible to damage. It's higher on some and they have minor dimples that are almost invisible.

The new shinier clear coat shows off dimples alot easier I think. It probably just looks worse due to that.

They will obviously dimple the same, if they are made of the same species of wood.

Some 30 year old piece of wood might be dryer than a newly milled piece, one section of the wood might have tighter grain than another section 12" away, but on average, one piece of maple is not going to be any harder than another.

The Janka test is how wood is graded for hardness.

A steel ball is pressed into a piece of wood, until it is buried 1/2 way.

The amount of pressure it takes to do that is it's Janka Hardness.

Sugar Maple ( what playfields are made of) has a Janka Hardness of 1450

Sure you could find a knotty section, or tightly grained section that has a 1460 hardness, but if you test the whole board, 1450 is going to be your average.

That's the facts.

Ok. It must be true.

A quick search on Google and not all plywood is created equal.

Facts:
"Advances in technology have changed the thickness of veneer from the 1/8 inch of 1725 to the standard 1/64 inch or even 1/110 used in some modern productions."

"Today with hardwood plywood, any material can be between the face and back veneers and still be called plywood. The core material is specified separately from the face, so you can have maple plywood with a veneer core (which is similar to construction-type plywood) "

So sorry, but the wood used now is different.

Hence the more severe dimpling.

OMG, one Google search and you are now the plywood expert!!!!

You must be flooded with offers to head the APA.

Plywood have been available with different core woods and face woods since the 1930s

All that Teak furniture your grandma has from the 50s and 60s has a Birch core.

Prove that Stern is using a different plywood.

Prove that they are using the same.

I take it you missed Gary's speech at Expo last year???

Procrastinator did a hardness test on several playfields using a rebound tester.

There are differences in the hardness and obvious results; Ghostbusters appears to have one of the softest playfields.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-bashing-justified/page/10#post-3963817

that BM66 looks like a reaction in the clear (fish eyes) not dimples. I have seen that many times when the wood surface is not prepped right. you can tell since the dimples are not round and are different shapes relative to each other.

all wood dimples, it sucks. what can we do about it? really nothing. people who clearcoat with tons of hardner have issues with the clear not moving with inserts or cracking out of holes and wear lines being way more noticable. there needs to be a delicate balance between flexibility and durability and I think for the most part we were in a good spot until the recent ghosting saga that popped up. and you know what, this is probably from stern trying different things to appease all the crazy people who call up and complain. leave what has worked over the last 30 years alone. it's fine as is.

I have installed ~25 cleared repro, NOS, & restored playfields from just about everyone past and present, except Kruzman (he does great work, just never had what I needed (yet ) and Neo (I have a good friend who has). Hard clear is the absolute worst. I don't want to name names but some people and repro houses I will never use again. IMO the best was anyone who has picked Bill Davis' brain and stayed true to the more rubbery coating of diamond plate. Yah it dimples and flexes and all the stuff it's supposed to do.

Vid pretty much summed up the plywood thing as being a non-issue. and i agree with this enough that it's not worth debating about. i think that older playfields lose their moisture a bit and do get a bit harder, but what are you going to do? dry these in a kiln to condition them just right and hope they don't warp? they will still dimple just maybe 90% of what a new playfield would dimple and cost twice as much.

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the rebound test is pretty interesting. i have never had a new stern with a playfield that didn't hold up like older games, but then the newest stern i have purchased was TF....and despite a terrible playfield warp i had to exchange the pf for....it was fine. if they are using ply with sub-par top layers as a cost cutting measure that would be..sucky.
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/old man yells at cloud.jpg

-c

My magnet looks the same after 7 days of playing at home.
(congrats for the picture it is hard to take).

So it is normal ? I can't complain about this ?

I find these endless dimple threads to be really asinine. They are typically just another form of Stern bashing. Just wqnted to chime in and say that I recently played a brand new JJP Pirates LE and guess what? It was getting dimples. I have a low-play HEP Addams that was restored some years ago and guess what? It gets dimples.

It should come as no surprise when you buy brand new pins with clear coats like glass that they're going to dimple, and yet an endless stream of Pinsiders are still very surprised and feel compelled to come on here and bash Stern.

In my opinion some of the older Sterns are holding up great. See post 215 of the AC/DC. I have the same machine and is in equal shape, barely a dimple anywhere, even where the cannon shoots. My Metallica a few more dimples but nothing major. My new MBr LE- dimpled like crazy after only a couple hundred plays. In reality it is ALL the manufacturers and the fact that the wood they are using just isn't as hard as it was in the past. I also believe there was a debate about the clear coat being used now that although environmentally healthy is not as hard as before. Not sure what the solution is other than to just play, enjoy and be happy we have our big boy toys -

I admit, I was worried about buying Deadpool, because there is a Ghostbusters at the local arcade which isn't just dimpled. It's WAY beyond that. It didn't smooth out. It's worse than the "orange peel" look. Atrocious.

But my Deadpool is fine. Yes there's dimples like most pins, but it's nothing like that. They're really tiny compared to GB dimples. Something changed for the better in the manufacturing.

I know what ya mean, have seen that well. Dimpling on pinball machines is normal but it seems like modern Sterns dimple far more severely then their past titles. Something changed with either the wood, clear, and or clear process.

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Yeah the GB is worse than that but the Deadpool has just tiny, tiny dimples. Nothing like those full indentations that BM66 and GB have.

I think dimples are sexy...

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Actually I just paid 10k$ for a stern Game and ship it for 9000 miles.
So actually I am not trying to bash anyone but I am concerned about the future of this expensive game.

So can I complain with stern and maybe request a playfield wich has been manufactured for playing pinball with a ball ?

No, dimples are normal and Stern won't do anything about it.
Your dealer should have told you this.
If it bothers you then buy a playfield protector for it.. this will offer some protection (but is another discussion...)

Again, I say take a ball peen hammer to a piece of wood over and over. Does it even out? It doesn't, it falls apart. That is what your Stern PF will do. The older PFs never had this kind of damage. I have swapped out several W/B PFs that have had no dimpleing at all and were flat as formica. But just keep telling yourselves that the Stern games are awesome and of the same quality as the older games and paying 8-10k for them.

I would like to hear what Chris Hudgins has to say. He deals with playfield of all kinds and eras. I will take his word as gospel. I don't think he will chime in however.