(Topic ID: 179285)

Dimples.


By Russell

2 years ago



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  • 254 posts
  • 81 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by snaroff
  • Topic is favorited by 9 Pinsiders

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There are 254 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 6.
#151 2 years ago
Quoted from Lamprey:

I was more curios if there are dimples that are excessively deep if there is an obvious explanation like a void?

There are NO excessively deep dimples.

None.

>>>>>> ALL PLAYFIELDS DIMPLE THE SAME <<<<<

-

There are small and large dimples depending on the velocity of the ball upon impact.

After millions of impacts the playfields are beaten flat.

That's it.

After 70 years, no one has ever found a playfield with excessively deep dimples, cuz there are none.

#152 2 years ago

Same machine, same production run

Quoted from flynnibus:

This.. is not small deviations

Design or materials... this thing is going to chew itself up.

few games = crater look.

dd441f3f7ee5ff9587bf4a42d82dc9ca58987e81 (resized).jpg

Quoted from flynnibus:

Older games look like orange peel. ... You can see the imperfections but the impressions on the playfield are very very shallow. You can only really see it in reflections and its just small deviations.

many games = orange peel look (look next to the "J" insert, above the HA HA & above the magnet to the right or the magnet itself)

f4992fc5b97a10f45be8e112af7cd3f6d188b163 (resized).jpg

#153 2 years ago
Quoted from Lamprey:

I get that. But, you ignored my main question or you are implying that "lumbercore maple plywood" is 100% perfect?

Maple lumbercore used for playfields is grade A3.

Face perfect.

Back solid, but color and grain differences allowed.

No unpatched voids in the core.

-

#154 2 years ago
#155 2 years ago

This reminds me of some very direct posts a little while back on the forum and for some reason it's crickets now...

Quoted from rubberducks:

They're using cheap, soft, un-aged wood and don't appear to be allowing adequate drying and hardening time for the clear either.

Quoted from rubberducks:

The wood is too young, too soft, too coarse, and ultimately too prone to warping.

Quoted from rubberducks:

The inserts are sinking or popping up because the wood is too young and too soft.

Quoted from rubberducks:

No it is not speculation.

#156 2 years ago
Quoted from swinks:

my concern is I have about 6-7 "nipples" - small raised spots in the clear (I am guessing) not sure if they cleared over crap or crap floated onto the playfield straight after being sprayed. Here are a few of them.

Those are called inclusions or craps.

They will wear down.

50b9cf90b6e4a491c510b428971f5859874dd731 (resized).jpg

#157 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

No, you are just repeatedly skipping over what I'm saying. It's not about the presence of dimples or not.. its about the severity of the dents (aka DEPTH). Hence why I said "...are very very shallow". Evening out doesn't bring surfaces back up.. and evening out doesn't somehow mask the transition between worn areas and areas that won't compress (like inserts).
You can't smash a PF surface down 1 mil and say 'it will even out'.. because that 1 mil depression will never come back up. Evening out only brings everything down to that level and rounds out transitions. These examples of properly broken in playfields with orange people do not have playing surfaces pushed down. The amount of compression from the thousands of plays and hits are small, hence why the difference between untouched areas and wear areas only shows itself as orange peal.. and not two levels.
That's why I keep saying its not about DIMPLES or not.. this situation is about SEVERITY of those dents and the rate at which they are appearing. The picture is to show the size and depth of the dents. You aren't going to even out craters.
We all know playfield wood dents.. I've been talking about how BIG the hits are in these new fields. Big hits = deeper depressions. Deeper depression = more transition and less likely to even out.

i get you think it's more severe now than it was. And i'm telling you they are NOT. It's exactly the same. they are just as deep as they always have been. You just don't realize it, because you were not there back in the early 90's when the stuff showed up brand new.

as for clearcoat issues. Be happy we even have clearcoated fields at all. personally, the pinball industry shot themselves in the foot when they started clearcoating fields. Instead of games getting 5 years before the playfield was so trashed it looked like wood. Now they last forever, making it so ops can route games forever. Takes a lot to burn through clear. Magnets dragging the ball on the field, speed it up, but still, it's only in one area and fixable with mylar patch.

#158 2 years ago

^ Exactly.

When I attended Bally school, they said that 3 years was the full life of a game.

#159 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

personally, the pinball industry shot themselves in the foot when they started clearcoating fields. Instead of games getting 5 years before the playfield was so trashed it looked like wood.

When the ball really took up speed - around the era of BK2000 - clear coat became very necessary. PFs on modern games wouldn't last even close to 5 years on route without clear.

#160 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

i get you think it's more severe now than it was. And i'm telling you they are NOT. It's exactly the same. they are just as deep as they always have been. You just don't realize it, because you were not there back in the early 90's when the stuff showed up brand new.

I was.. I was not only present, but I've been part of organized pinball for over 20 years. Ever heard of FSPA? Yeah, I was there at the start.. and I was on RGP back then as well (from about 1993). So drop the n00b angle. In fact, I have vague memories of when YOU showed up in the scene.. so whatever.

#161 2 years ago
Quoted from someoneelse:

When the ball really took up speed - around the era of BK2000 - clear coat became very necessary. PFs on modern games wouldn't last even close to 5 years on route without clear.

Games only require clearcoated PFs if they are not regularly maintenanced, due to lazy operators.
This includes the basic fundamentals such as wiping playfields and replacing balls, not just emptying coinboxes. You do not even need to wax a playfield every time when serviced, just keep it clean. No home use game "needs" clearcoat, and it would solve a lot of problems as as long as quality ink screening processes are used.

There are plenty of games that were equally fast in the mid 80s without automotive clearcoat that used lacquer. If you add up all the games that use a "Tuff Coat" lacquer from the 60s and 70s with hundreds of thousands of plays, they are not all worn down to bare wood, if you substitute number of additional plays against reduced "pure speed" reduced plays.

This is yet ANOTHER inaccurate pinball myth.

Manufacturers did castrate themselves.

They did not "invent" clearcoat due to faster game designs requirements.

Clearcoat, "diamond plate", or other similiar named processes were designed to make operators lives "easier" (ie lazy) especially in hard to reach designs, not provide pretty playfields to private owners. It could be considered an attempt at "innovation" in some ways. This can be referenced in many manufacturer advertisements for sales, if the response is "prove it". This is side effect today of the modern market catered to new owners asking for thicker clear coats, which has consequences such as adhesion problems and chipping, all of which has been seen in the past. If it was not for a few people left in the industry that are also hobbyists and historians, people would be making up even larger sources of crazy ideas of why things happen.

Manufacturers tried other playfield methods none of which were major jumps forward in durability including plastic playfields, not just mylar.

It is like saying games MUST have protectors everywhere in a home environment, which in many cases is extreme overkill. Generally a title only had a few potential trouble areas based on design, such as exposed magnet cores.

Think about other areas of pinball design, not playfields. Right now we are moving backwards again in the industry to a point where we are only a few steps from cabinets being completely made from sawdust and MDF. It saves a lot money, but the durability and construction is poor. Most know what is, and we all hate it. So why is the price for a new game still significantly higher? R&D? Technology? Game design? Features? None of these aspects really are proper justifications.
For $15K, you should get at least wood cabinet, a real backglass, and a properly cure and treated wood playfield with quality ink screening, clear if opted, along with enough spare parts to keep it running for 20+ years. None of this was included.

The simpest explanation in life is usually the correct one.

"Every time the pinball industry thrives, it struggles, as it competes against its own games from the past."
- TBK

#162 2 years ago

I made a short video of my Gorgar playfield. Does it have planking, tons of it. How about paint loss, absolutely. Sunken inserts, almost every one. Dimples, zero. If my playfield was all "mashed flat" by a million dimples you would be able to tell around the posts and places the ball stops. Am I worried, of course not.

Granted I have only put 2627 plays in the 4 years I have had it but it was a routed game for 34 years before I got it. 3 people downvoted me because I said my old Williams didn't have dimples and I saw a Metallica that did. Anyone want a "ball drop" challenge? We can both video a equal drop from the same distance onto a clean area on my Gorgar and your "X" playfield. One on the field and one under the apron?

IMG_2540 (resized).JPG

#163 2 years ago

Id like to see you test under the apron. Gorgar isn't exactly a game with a lot of airballs.

#164 2 years ago
Quoted from catboxer:

Id like to see you test under the apron. Gorgar isn't exactly a game with a lot of airballs.

This game is pretty fast and it airballs most every time from the right flipper to the snake area.

#165 2 years ago
Quoted from Travish:

Anyone want a "ball drop" challenge? We can both video a equal drop from the same distance onto a clean area on my Gorgar and your "X" playfield. One on the field and one under the apron?

That's a great idea!

Gorgar is kind of like an EM with a voice, so it's slow moving ball has very little impact since there are no ramps to fall off of and no dead-on standups.

Gorgar's 40 year old wood will be harder due to moisture loss, but it'll still dimple under the apron enough to prove our point.

We need a new game that has plenty of miles on it, so maybe something like Ripley's Believe It or Not - lot's of multiball miles, but newish.

We can do five 36" drops under the apron, and five drops in front of the flippers where there has been much fiber compression.

We'll use a micrometer to measure the depth of the dents and average them out.

Science!

#166 2 years ago

I'm game.

#167 2 years ago

Oh wait. I have Mylar in front of the flippers that is covering a section of paint loss. We will have to go higher for the playfield.

#168 2 years ago

I can try this on my old Bally EM. I did try it on a solid oak door and it dimpled. Also on a sheet of aluminum which also dimpled, but is of course a softer metal. I tried it on a steel bar... no dimple. My old ToM and TZ were covered by dimples.

#169 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I was.. I was not only present, but I've been part of organized pinball for over 20 years. Ever heard of FSPA? Yeah, I was there at the start.. and I was on RGP back then as well (from about 1993). So drop the n00b angle. In fact, I have vague memories of when YOU showed up in the scene.. so whatever.

Then why are you acting like a noob with dimples? you should know better.

#170 2 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

^ Exactly.
When I attended Bally school, they said that 3 years was the full life of a game.

Just curious Vid, what are your thoughts about the clear coat cracking in the drain holes and shooter lanes of these games? Is that something that is most likely going to keep getting worse and cause major problems down the road with these playfields?

#171 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

they why are you acting like a noob with dimples? you should know better.

Flynnibus knows EVERYTHING Neo didn't you know that? Only reason he is on here is so he can argue with everybody.

#173 2 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Flynnibus knows EVERYTHING Neo didn't you know that? Only reason he is on here is so he can argue with everybody.

well i'm always up for a good argue. Especially about playfields, since it's my area of expertise. Vid is also an expert in playfields, and we are on the same page, so I think the argument was over before it started.

#174 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

well i'm always up for a good argue. Especially about playfields, since it's my area of expertise. Vid is also an expert in playfields, and we are on the same page, so I think the argument was over before it started.

I didn't know that. I will ask you then, what are your thoughts about the playfields that have clear cracking in the drain hole and the shooter lanes? Is this something terrible that's gonna eventually ruin the playfield probably or something that won't get much worse probably? Also what should a person do if he has a game like that?

#175 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

i get you think it's more severe now than it was. And i'm telling you they are NOT. It's exactly the same. they are just as deep as they always have been. You just don't realize it, because you were not there back in the early 90's when the stuff showed up brand new.
as for clearcoat issues. Be happy we even have clearcoated fields at all. personally, the pinball industry shot themselves in the foot when they started clearcoating fields. Instead of games getting 5 years before the playfield was so trashed it looked like wood. Now they last forever, making it so ops can route games forever. Takes a lot to burn through clear. Magnets dragging the ball on the field, speed it up, but still, it's only in one area and fixable with mylar patch.

My TWD and GOT both had severe dimpling like that Batman game and now they look much better, kinda like an orange peel and you can't even see them unless you're looking for them in perfect light. TWD has 1600 plays and the GOT has around 700-750 plays on it.

20
#176 2 years ago

Under the apron on my Shadow. Before, and then after three separate ball drops. Let's just give this a rest FFS.

IMG20170128214040 (resized).jpg
IMG20170128214158 (resized).jpg

And some juicy super macro shots of the dimples. Horrific.

IMG20170128214740 (resized).jpg

IMG20170128214744 (resized).jpg

#177 2 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Just curious Vid, what are your thoughts about the clear coat cracking in the drain holes and shooter lanes of these games? Is that something that is most likely going to keep getting worse and cause major problems down the road with these playfields?

Every ball ever played hits the shooter lane, so I always Mylar it when the game is first unboxed.

Every ball ever played hits the outhole, so this is an extreme high-wear location too.

Just like on a car, clear has a hard time sticking to sharp edges.

If the outhole is chipping, I take some sandpaper and round over the outhole edge, then I brush on some clear.

#178 2 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Every ball ever played hits the shooter lane, so I always Mylar it when the game is first unboxed.
Every ball ever played hits the outhole, so this is an extreme high-wear location too.
Just like on a car, clear has a hard time sticking to sharp edges.
If the outhole is chipping, I take some sandpaper and round over the outhole edge, then I brush on some clear.

Makes sense, Thanks for your advice!

#179 2 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Every ball ever played hits the shooter lane, so I always Mylar it when the game is first unboxed.
Every ball ever played hits the outhole, so this is an extreme high-wear location too.
Just like on a car, clear has a hard time sticking to sharp edges.
If the outhole is chipping, I take some sandpaper and round over the outhole edge, then I brush on some clear.

Just checked my GOT and TWD and both outholes have very minor cleacoat cracking. Time to mylar those areas!

#180 2 years ago

So no challengers for a more scientific approach? It's time to put your ball where your mouth is instead of because I said so. I personally think they will be the same.

#181 2 years ago
Quoted from Russell:

When I first got Star Trek LE, the first week the playfield looked like the surface of the moon. I was shocked and unhappy. I just decided it was a flawed playfield, but I would just keep playing it and not worry. By the time I sold it, it had smoothed out to the point that individual dimples weren't even visible.
Is this the same thing that is happening for BM66 owners? Do they just need to play through it, or is this a bigger issue? I saw the magnet dimples, which is weird. I wonder if it will smooth out over time?
Also, are the dimples in the wood or the clear coat? It's hard to tell, any way to know for sure?

My STLE did the very same thing, I was very concerned that the run of PFs was too soft...maybe they are, maybe they are not. I have a Tron LE right next to it...both games were purchased NIB weeks within release and to date, I hardly see any dimpling on my Tron...a few to be sure but certainly not the amount found on my STLE...they have still not "gown" together...maybe I should play more. A few of the folks in our league mentioned that Stern used more Clear Coat on STLE so dimpling will be more pronounced...perhaps. In retrospect, I should have placed Mylar in front of my Slings...that area looks the worst. The next question will be, when it comes time to sell, if I sell, will the amount of dimpling be a factor...?? As after all, it is a "home use only" game and like it or not, agree with it or not, given the price of new machines they represent a substantial investment and many will want a reasonable return on that investment.

20
#182 2 years ago

"Can you take photos of any excessively deep dimples."

Jesus. Is this the next noob thing? I already hated the whole shooter lane thing. Do people buy these damn things to play them? If I am selling a game and you ask about "dimpling" expect no reply or just a picture of a big hairy A$$.

#183 2 years ago

Looking at those BM66 pics with the magnet. I would have, fresh out of the box, waxed and then mylared right over those magnets. People obsess over removing Mylar. I think it's the best protection you can have. Better than clear coat, totally reversible later assuming a clear coated playfield, and a good waxing prior to application. The Mylar will actually start looking better after many plays as it rubs it into the artwork/magnet. People are upset about the durability of these new games but you have to consider the design as being part of the problem. Having the magnet showing through a hole is just asking for trouble. There is a gap, however small, between wood and magnet. And they are not perfectly flush. Now violently grab a steel ball out of play and rub it across this surface and everyone expects the game to look perfect forever. Theatre of magic, 2 magnets under the wood. Wax and mylared, it still looks brand new. Addams family, big magnet right in front of the flippers, games with Mylar here still looks new 25 years later. I've said this in other threads. If STERN would do total factory Mylar after clear coat. They would never hear another complaint, or people asking for refunds because of chipped artwork. But guess what, your still gonna get dimples, no matter where you get the wood.

#184 2 years ago

The Janka hardness test would END this discussion. It would even factor the clearcoat in. Anyone want to go first?....

#185 2 years ago
Quoted from FtrMech:

The next question will be, when it comes time to sell, if I sell, will the amount of dimpling be a factor...??

Indeed it will, if:

1. You don't play it enough to even out the dimples.

2. You sell it to a nubie or pansy pirate.

#186 2 years ago
Quoted from GreenMachine19:

Having the magnet showing through a hole is just asking for trouble.

Or you could have the magnet hidden, and have the ball chew all the way through the playfield wood like on an old WMS.

#187 2 years ago
Quoted from TimeBandit:

Under the apron on my Shadow. Before, and then after three separate ball drops. Let's just give this a rest FFS.

And some juicy super macro shots of the dimples. Horrific.

OMG, that shadow must be a pile of crap. Look at how soft that playfield is. Must be made of xmas tree pine. You better sell it for scrap while you still can.

#188 2 years ago
Quoted from TimeBandit:

Under the apron on my Shadow. Before, and then after three separate ball drops. Let's just give this a rest FFS.

This should be a key post on this topic.

#189 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

OMG, that shadow must be a pile of crap. Look at how soft that playfield is. Must be made of xmas tree pine. You better sell it for scrap while you still can.

I know, and I only just got it. But now I can't sell it, because it didn't have a single dimple that I could see before, and now it has three, and I'm going to have to include these photos in the ad. I'm screwed.

#190 2 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Flynnibus knows EVERYTHING Neo didn't you know that? Only reason he is on here is so he can argue with everybody.

Yep.

Quoted from TimeBandit:

Under the apron on my Shadow. Before, and then after three separate ball drops. Let's just give this a rest FFS.

And some juicy super macro shots of the dimples. Horrific.

Well done....and well said.

#191 2 years ago
Quoted from FlipperMagician:

This should be a key post on this topic.

Then it should be made a sticky.
Then it should be pinned to the front of the Stern website. Then maybe a few choice billboards around Chicago as well.

#192 2 years ago
Quoted from TimeBandit:

Under the apron on my Shadow. Before, and then after three separate ball drops. Let's just give this a rest FFS.

And some juicy super macro shots of the dimples. Horrific.

Thanks for your contribution to the thread. That is pretty conclusive.

Is it entirely possible we're seeing more dimple shots these days because people have better cameras in their pockets now? So they can get in close and take those photos, whereas in the not so distant past that was near impossible without high end camera gear?

#193 2 years ago

Interesting thread guys. thanks for all those that contributed. As most have indicated - "dimples" aren't really the crux of the situation that started all this. The real issue is what has happened to the clear on the playfields?

Something has obviously changed (different clear, different application process, different treatment of the playfield wood surface, different inks ???) with some batches of Stern playfields which has caused issues.

It is an important issue for Stern to resolve and be transparent about because it has caused a not insignificant number of potential customers to hold of (for now) on buying a NIB pin from Stern (myself included). If consumers don't have confidence in the products they are buying - they ultimately stop buying. I know many people argue that they are the only game in town - and while not 100% true anymore - it kind of still is. However, the consumer can decide to buy another type of entertainment device for their home (instead of a pinball machine) - like an arcade cabinet (mame), an X-Box, PlayStation, 65" OLED TV, boat, motorcycle, etc.) There is a lot of choice on how to spend an extra $5 - $6k. Why would the home consumer invest in a problem filled box of wires and solenoids right out of the box?

Operators don't care you say? Well, MrBally indicated that Bally once thought that a game had a 3 year location life. At $6k and the current amout of play on location; how much money would an operator make in 3 years? probably no where near what they could during that same lifespan in the 80's - so of course games need cleared playfields now if the operator wants to sell it after 3 years to at least make some return on their investment. I understand why they gravitate towards coin-pushers.

Keep on Flippin Fellas. Despite the controversies - I love pinside.

#194 2 years ago

Here's the playfield in my TRON:LE which I bought new. Maybe 2,000 plays total? Hard to say. Anyway, I've done *zero* maintenance to this game since 2011, other than replacing the original balls after a few years and I finally cleaned it this weekend.

I don't think it's had enough plays to really even out massive dimples, but I can't really find any really deep ones.

There's very light ghosting and the orange peel effect is minimal. There's some slight wear on the outhole and the shooter lane.

Orange Peel
Ghosting

IMG_4842 (resized).jpg

#195 2 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

There's very light ghosting and the orange peel effect is minimal. There's some slight wear on the outhole and the shooter lane.

OMG! I'm never buying another Stern!

/s

#196 2 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

OMG! I'm never buying another Stern!

My game is about what you should expect. Personally I think the recent Sterns look worse in terms of the ghosting and clear chipping, so buyers should be concerned. Dimples? Show me a GB or BM66 after 2K plays and we'll compare.

TRON has no magnets, though. Maybe that makes a difference.

#197 2 years ago

SOME ONE COME UP WITH A PLASTIC BALL THAT WEIGHS THE SAME AS A STEEL BALL! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

/THREAD

#198 2 years ago
Quoted from PBFan:

At $6k and the current amout of play on location; how much money would an operator make in 3 years? probably no where near what they could during that same lifespan in the 80's

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=1800&year1=1978&year2=2016

A game like KISS by Bally was $1,800 in 1978.

That inflates to $6,625 in 2016 dollars.

-

In 1978 a game paid for itself in 3 months (with about 7,000 plays).

In 2016 a game pays for itself in about 12 months (with about 7,000 plays).

-

In 1978 when a game was no longer earning, and could not be sold to another operator; you would take it to the dump.

In 2016 when a game is no longer earning, you sell it to a collector.

#199 2 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

My game is about what you should expect.

I agree.

That is what the "/s" meant.

#200 2 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

My game is about what you should expect. Personally I think the recent Sterns look worse in terms of the ghosting and clear chipping, so buyers should be concerned. Dimples? Show me a GB or BM66 after 2K plays and we'll compare.
TRON has no magnets, though. Maybe that makes a difference.

But the zuse targets do cause airballs at times and the disc really throws the ball hard at times. Your photos are as you say.. more of what you'd expect as a game has been played.

But the ruling council has spoken.. there is nothing to see here.. nothing has changed. All our games have grown out of their crater and potato chip clear phases right under our noses and we never noticed it or knew it was happening.

Remember when games wore to the wood... little did you know there was a whole phase of the clear smashing and chipping, and delaminating.. that all happened in that very spot.. you just never knew it!!

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