Personally I think the biggest issue with TH right now is lack of variety in terms of interactive toys. Drop targets are fun but I think everyone here will agree we need more in a $7500+ game to shoot at. With WOZ you have one drop target with a shot behind it but also two mini playfields with various shots, a saucer shot, a spinner shot at the Crystal ball and more. With Smaug not being interactive with the ball we are left with the drop targets and the pop ups being the main things to hit. I think that would have been fine had Smaug interacted with the ball on say the level of the castle in MM. However that is not the case and if leaves the drops as the main interactive toy.

I understand that WB didn't want the Smaug toy to be hit directly but why not then make 3/5 drops in front of the toy a motorized target bank with a shot behind it Attack from Mars style? In a $7500-$9k game that seems doable.

The Windlance toy sounds cool on paper but in reality it is a pop up peg that allows a ball to be held at the kicker to be shot at the right bank of drop targets. With the peg not being able to adjust the direction of the ball I think the goal of the shot will always be to hit one of the drop targets that has a roving flashing insert. I think a motorized ACDC canon style toy but modeled like a Windlance mounted somewhere on or near the apron would be preferred especially considering that Smaug doesn't interact with the ball.

I still think that this game will have an epic ruleset. For now I'm going to wait and see what the final production game looks like before either canceling my preorder or sticking with it.

Panzer, After all of your earlier, repeated, woz posts, you have now finally convinced me you are not a jjp shill.

I agree. Not enough variety. Not enough interactive toys. It seems like there could have lots of ways to make Smaug epic and interactive as we heard he would be. I just don't understand after all the talk that this is what they went with. They had to know there would be massive negative reaction. If Smaug was anything close to the castle in MM I would have been thrilled and excited about the game.

One of the best posts so far.
JJP should thank you Aurich and give you a consultant job offer for the next months. Seriously.
Because this one of the few constructive suggestions I have read which seem doable given how little time is left. Sure, a more interactive Smaug head / full dragon would be cool. But I do not see how this can be changed before production.

Haha, I don't think I'd want to work for JJP. It doesn't really sound like the kind of company I'd enjoy to be honest. If Dutch Pinball comes calling though ...

In all seriousness the worst thing I can think of is to make pinball a job. Seems like it would suck so much of the fun out of it. Rather it always stay a hobby.

Tron Premium is the Tron LE.
Says it on it & the box it shipped in.

Sounds perfect...

Hobbit™
Smaug™

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™
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™

Is it those big bad wolves you keep mentioning? Are they bothering you? What kind of legalist bullies do you take these guys for?

I think you're overly paranoid. It explains part of why you couldn't fight the licensor for Balcer's ideas, you just didn't have the cojones. It explains why he blames you in some ways. Freres and Nordman saw this and quit aswell. I bet that's what happened.

Unless you pushed them out for cost-cutting measures, 'cause that table surely exemplifies that strategy.

Either way, throwing legal threats at Aurich (for something so petty) will not reassure yourself of whatever cojones you think you have left.

Pat Lawlor is now the leader of your company, maybe not on paper; not in a legal way. But I hope you understand the implication of your legalese leadership; that you signed off your company to Pat, because the community has its own law, the most important one: they're the ones with the cash. And the legalese threat of those licensors have got nothing on that. We're now all looking to Pat for what will be a marking moment on the future image of YOUR company.

Wake-up and save this Hobbit game. Push the release date back. Because right now, your company has been renamed to "Jersey Pat". And you better hope he doesn't get a heart attack 'cause all your eggs are in one basket.

Smaug is fixable without changing the mechanics. Just ditch the whole mold but leave the turning mechanism. Make a new Smaug mold that includes some of his body and wings. It will look cool when turned around or facing you. Problem solved. No rocks, no gold ditch all that.

Here are my thoughts at this moment:

As much as I was looking forward (in on it for almost 2 years now) to owning The Hobbit
for what I have seen, heard and read it just does not meet my expectations. I was expecting
to get goose bumps when it was revealed, but that didn't happen. Yes, the sound and animation
are cool but what is happening on the playfield just does not make me feel happy.

It is great that Jack is offering a free SE upgrade for those who pre ordered and I do find that version
better looking than the LE version. But that is just visual and a pin is here to be played, not to look at all the time.

Problem now is that I just don't get the feeling that the overall composition of the playfield is going to be fun and will be for a long time. I only have room for one pin in my living room, so it has to be damn good. And with all the choices available at the moment, The Hobbit does not qualify.

I spend maybe more than 100 hours on reading information and looking to pictures and videos of The Hobbit in the last 2 years . Discussed things here on the forum, but to me the reveal was a disappointment. And for the most part that is caused by lack of factual information on what we have seen and how that relates to the final product.

TBL never had my attention, but just by looking for 1 hour at pictures of this pin an watching the video of a demo play this pin has my full attention now.

I feel really sad about this, but 80% of me is leaning to cancelling my Hobbit pre-order because my feeling is that it just does not turn out how I had hoped it would be. I will wait till the IAAPA convention from November 17-21 in Orlando to give a final judgement. But what JJP is going to say and show there must be very convincing to keep me on board.

In the meantime I am going to watch TBL movie and at 1 November 2014 I will go to the Dutch Pinball Open to watch and hopefully play TBL in person. So maybe I am going to stick to a product made in my own country.

One thing for sure Dutchman rule

What is the official JJP refund policy? Based on what I'm seeing on all these Pinside posts and polls at least 50‰ are out. That means tomorrow there's going to be a run on the bank when everyone wants their refunds. Most people seem to think that it will be no problem getting a refund.

Getting a refund should not be a problem (although it took a few weeks before I got my check.)

Id be surprised if these polls are overly accurate. I really think people should take a deep breath after this weekend and wait a little longer to see what more might get done.

Dont hold back, tell us how you really feel.

Although those little TM's do wreak of paranoia, lol.

I seriously doubt JJP will get a 30% cancellation based on all this. Canceling a pre-order now gets you what? you step out of line and when they deliver on the promise to top WoZ, you'll be kicking yourself because now you just cost yourself $1500 to get in back of the line for a Smaug SE. Actually you won't be able to get one as that door will have closed.

Actually all this hubbub is a good thing. JJP will be on their toes to prove the doubters wrong, that WoZ was not a one hit wonder.

I'm sitting tight and am confident there are more good things to come and hopefully some (good) surprises.

As for cosmetics and Smaug interaction, I don't think it's near done. Smaug will directly interact when the ramp diverter is integrated as it's tail. Hopefully that is done well.

Like PinballRulez said I think we need to see what type of game shows up to IAAPA before making final judgment. That leaves JJP less then a month to change and add some things to the game. WOZ won a highly regarded award at the IAAPA event in 2012 but I doubt that would be the case if it was shown in the current state that The Hobbit is.

Prove us all wrong JJP and knock this one out of the park!

He sent a legal threat to Aurich?

You'll get a great deal on TBL compared to all of us in the US who are ordering! The movie is great, just keep in mind it's not really about the plot, more the vibe and the characters and experience. That's why so many people love rewatching it.

Let's not let this get blown out of proportion. Jack made some legal blustering here in the forum at me, which had no grounds whatsoever. Robin decided to pull the image I had made to avoid conflict (a decision I don't agree with, and we've talked about it, but his site, his rules).

It's really not even worth posting it again, the short version is I mocked up a cabinet with Smaug on the side that basically looked just like the one that was revealed at Expo. That's why he gave me a shout out at his seminar. Though Jack, it's pronounced like "Oric".

Jack and I took it to PM, I was pretty blunt with my side of things, and he eventually apologized, which I appreciated, and it's water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned. I wish nothing but the best for him and Hobbit, I wish I had better things to say, but I just have to be honest about it. I looked for Jack at Expo, never saw him, I would have shaken his hand, no hard feelings on my side.

I ran into some people from JJP and ask them bluntly if this was the finished product, because it looked a little sparse physically. They countered that it was not physically complete, since there are assets from the third film which could not be revealed. Here's hoping that was true, because the proto I flipped was pretty boring.

I'm on the fence. I'm massively disappointed with what was shown at Expo. If not for Keith doing the rules, I'd be out already.

However, if the book is not replaced with an LCD (or something as cool) I am almost certainly out. I'm hoping for the best and will hang in there for a while longer...

I still think the book is a red herring.

I quickly changed my LE order to the SE after the reveal, but after watching the game play videos over the weekend and letting things set in, I'm all but ready to cancel. The Smaug toy simply did not live up to Jack's hype of being immersive and interactive, the game play looks clunky, and the drop targets clicking on and off is pretty annoying (to me) as well. Even though the design isn't turning out to be something I'm getting excited about, I'm still hopeful for JJP's ongoing success.

Keith is the only thing keeping me interested in this game right now. Very disappointed with the toys. The playfield is designed for fast flow, but the proto at Expo played very slowly and barely made the ramps on a clean shot. Hoping for more/better at IAAPA.

Even if the book is a red herring and will be replaced by a 5" LCD screen do you really have hopes that it will be utilized to its full potential? It's kind of like the Crystal Ball in WOZ, it's cool in concept but when I play WOZ I don't even look at it because it has nothing to offer to the gameplay. I just don't think that a screen itself is enough to make a game go from "meh" to "really fun". I would rather have them use that money towards trying to fit another ramp into the game to make that upper right flipper more useful.-They could have put Smaug in the area where the Bag-end is and put some type of side-ramp/other toy in the Smaug area for that UR flipper to hit.-Inline drop bank concealing a ramp like in WOF would have been sweet!

I'd like to know who the "61" are that cancelled their preorders and what it was specifically that caused you to do so?

I am surprised that im not seeing some other post about what is making me strongly consider a refund on my hobbit. Ive been a day 1 order. The theme alone got me and with all that was advertised as to what we get. But The tactics at JJP is really getting on my last nerve. Mainly the cabinet artwork. I am a early Woz owner and have the direct print cabinet. I was told that my hobbit would too when i paid for it. Now they have a new "interchangeable" art that you get, but for 400.00 more you can get their new process. F&% You, I was told that i was getting one thing and you change it to something not as nice, and then want me to pay for an upgrade.

Not a happy preorder person right now and im at 95% wanting my money back

I thought the switch to smaug gold (with better art) was free for paid-up preorders?

It is but the cabinets come with regular decals. The super thick glossy decals are an upgrade now.

if you want the high quality, or at least it is supposed to be high quality, but the person that applied it to the empty cabinet was by far a craftsman as the application looked like jr high shop class job. Otherwise, even with the smaug edition, it will come with a sticker, which is not what i ordered. I sure as hell am not paying an additional 400 for the better type of art.

I flipped Tron LE on location today and it felt very mediocre. Not a lot to shoot for, couldn't hear anything. Yawn. Ill take a Hobbit for $7,500 over a Tron LE for whatever they're going for any day. On spec.

I get the disappointment from EXPO, but grow a sac boys. This is uncharted territory, and most of you need to take a laxative and chill out.

know what you mean about on location...
i've tried several times playing at different places out in the wild. all times, it's just not the same.

Tron LE is an absolutely completely different experience in home environment (no bs). Sound & Light combined makes a giant difference. Do you know the rule set for it yet? When I got mine, for the first month... I wasn't really sure what to think about the pin. Once I learned the rule set, it not only became much more fun, but I ended up playing every single day for years in a row. Now, with mods added to it, and customizing the music, putting in the hot chix translite instead 2 head-shots of jeff bridges, it is an incredible experience in a home setting. When folks come over, they have 12 games to choose from, and they all gravitate to Tron and just can't leave it alone.

Now, do i wish there was a "trap door", a "subway", or another level ? heck yeah

If you get the chance, try playing at someone's home (and knowing about the ruleset).
hope that helps

This Hobbit game journey brings back some memories of 2012 IAAPA when WOZ was still evolving:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/woz-at-iaapa-2012-its-good-no-really

Given that Jack has now said what was shown at Expo was not the final game, I changed my order from LE to SE today. My original plan was to cancel.

probably with the lights on, too. The whole point of Tron LE is to have the sound jacked and the lights out. You clearly *don't* get it, man.

what's with the trolling? I think people who are into preorders for $7500 have every right to bitch/moan if they don't like what they see. Sounds like Jack might be doing something about it based on the feedback.

I canceled this morning after being underwhelmed by the videos of gameplay, the book, the lack of Smaug ball interaction and the way he looks ect.

Whose going to pickup Lawlors game now?

hopefully it still gets made.

My point is that even a known quantity - finished and lauded - can seem mediocre under normal, life circumstances. These people harshing on the TH have every right to voice their opinions, but the game isn't even done yet. I'm amused by Pinside being Pinside. And I honestly think the Hobbit is going to "flip" just fine when it's all said and done and have plenty of appeal all around.

Especially in a dark, quiet room with the sound turned up and the code finished.

I hope you love it! I will be looking forward to seeing what Pat has up his sleeve for game 3.

I sense a bit of frenzied panic by the Pinside faithful here. While I agree what was shown of the Hobbit in Chciago was lacking, I think we need to look a bit at history here. JJP had its struggles with making deadlines for WOZ too ( I am opening a NIB WOZ this weekend). And frankly, nothing would have lived up to the hype anyway. It is sort of like the stock market-you buy on the rumor and sell on the news. Give JJP a chance here. Some of this will get fixed. And realistically, in today's business environment with the heavy tax structure and high mandated costs of full time employees, $7500 for a machine of this complexity really isn't out of line. The LCD, RGB LED lighting, and intensive intrinsic diagnostic and repair technology all have real value. (As an aside, it was interesting to me in this on-line, on-screen era, people are still hyped about color DMD's. Moreover, I am surprised the pinball culture and industry even still embrace DMD's.) So relax and allow things to play out here a bit longer. JJP has sat on your $ for 1 1/2 years already. Give it more time before you cancel. If you cancel now, all you are doing is relinquishing your chance to buy TH SE for $ 7500 and replacing it with the opportunity to buy at $9000. Granted, a clever play by JJP, but so be it. Ten years from now, TH will be in the pinside top 20, and probably the top 10 based on its technology and complexity of game play. I doubt if the same will be true for Star Trek, Tron, Iron Man, Avengers, TWD, X-men, Mustang, and so much of the other drek Stern has churned out recently.....remember RCT??? JJP, unlike Stern, has allowed us to watch the development of this game during much of its progress. And I suspect that the pinside response to earlier renditions motivated him to make some significant changes, e.g., dump the 4th flipper and get rid of the ballchinian goblin on the cabinet. And although time is short, hopefully the most recent criticisms will guide JJP even further. And besides, if JJP doesn't get it right, your copy of the Hobbit will become quite rare and valuable as one of just a few manufactured by what could become a relatively short-lived company (NOT my wish by the way). Bottom line....sit tight and chillax!!!!

I think you're going to regret it bro...

You naysayers may be correct. It may all become clear to us in the next few months. But perhaps it will take a few years before the full value and impact of this game will be understood.

Pimp if Hobbit turns out great I will grab one down the road, but for now with limited pin funds & space I had to let it go.

I hope so for half your names sake

True...there will be plenty of chance to get one later. I'd dump RAZA if I were you as that's a pipe dream. Get back on the train to middle earth!

I wouldn't worry about being the FIRST 1/3 that asks for a refund...

I just wouldn't want to be the LAST 1/3 to ask for a refund....

Those folks would be listening to an out-of-service phone recording

After Jack's replay there is no way I would go out of my Hobbit order. They have proofed of what they are capable of. WOZ is not everybodys cup of tea but it's a great game. I was disturbed of the defensively quietness after and at the expo critic. That changed after the responses here and in the google group.
But now the only big question that concerns me deeply is if I should go SE or stay with my LE order???

No way in hell. My WOZ has been down since I got it over a year ago. Why would I do it again? !

I'd say definitely the SE. LE looks pretty good, but the SE has much more attractive cabinet & trim.

How do you know how that golden trim looks like? Has that been shown?

I'm amazed how little seems to have been learned from the WOZ experience, this is the same kind of over reaction that accompanied its first reveals with immature code. Granted, the time line for changes seems much smaller, but I have faith that in the end, JJP will get this right, and it will be great!

Let's look at some positives for a change:

The sound and animations are outstanding, Smaug video integration gave me chills. This games display will be the best in pinball history, period!!

The Smaug edition is a great idea, costs no extra to switch if you have a preorder in good standing and doesn't increase the # of LE's. Seems everyone wanted more Smaug art on the cabinet, JJP has delivered.

The new cabinet process is nothing short of stunning, I've attached a picture I took of it in the vendor hall, you can see the reflection of the tables behind me, finish is incredible!!

IMG_20141017_201625.jpg