Look, I'm a pinball lover. I went to the show and played everything I could. I'm just giving you my honest opinions based on my experience. I LOOOVE my LOTR pin and I would love to love Hobbit and have them side-by-side. I have massive respect for EVERYONE designing and building pinball machines. I don't LIKE having negative opinions about stuff, cuz I know all the pinball peeps read this stuff and I don't feel good about hurting their feelings....but at the same time I'm a customer, I buy these things...and for the money - I have to have an opinion! Sometimes it's negative. Sowwy.

Rarehero and I may not always agree on everything but his post is dead nuts on.

No disrespect intended to anyone. I was at Expo as well, played many of the games, and left with exact same opinion. Many pinheads I bumped into and spoke to did as well. The only game there was some disparity in opinion on was TWD. Otherwise oddly much consensus. That's as of today. With tweaks I'm sure opinions can change.

For the record I'm a JJP fan (own a WOZ), know people who work there and are sincerely rooting for them. I love the Hobbit theme and also own a LOTR and would love to sit a Hobbit next to it. Not yet though.

I'm a concerned Hobbit buyer who thinks TBL blew it away. I'm supposed to be getting one of the first pins off the line, so I'm really trying to figure out if I should stay in or get out. I paid a premium when trading for this spot with CraZ4Pin. If somebody offered me cash for my spot right now I'd take it. It just makes me sad it went this way...just so disappointed and can't see how code can make this better

I'm with Rarehero, I don't enjoy bashing things, I just feel like the best approach is honesty. I was at Expo, I experienced the game in person, and it's just not something that felt good.

In an effort to be constructive though, here's my "realistic" (meaning no wild changes) list of things I'd love to see addressed just to make the presentation stronger:

1) The spinning Smaug isn't working for me. Mainly because the back of him, the "mountain", is just super boring and bland, and that's what you see 95% of the time. And the area around it feels empty and weird.

So I would either just lose the spinning and have the sculpt always visible, maybe with some kind of "sleeping" thing going, like a slowly pulsing LED light or the like, or I would totally rethink the "mountain" side. Make it something cool to look at when there's no dragon. What if instead it was the doorway that the map helped them find, and it has LED lighting to make the outline and runes around it pulse?

And fix the area around the whole mech to not look so empty and strange. The rest of the mountain perhaps. Also the coins in the sculpt are way too big. It makes the dragon look puny and small. No need to change the dragon, just make the coins in the pile smaller.

When he's actually talking it's cool, I don't think it's a bad idea at all, but it's just so rare that you get this "that's it?" feeling from him. And that's on top of the "doesn't interact with the ball" aspect.

Maybe there's more to be revealed there, that's my impression of the things as shown.

2) The VUKs are just awful looking, very industrial. Replace them with wireforms. No idea what the cost difference would be, it can't be big, and you wouldn't have to print decals and apply them. The ball flying up wireforms, fully visible, would look 500% better. If that creates some issues with things not being hidden or something then find another solution for hiding them.

3) The metal ramps in the middle are really unappealing looking. I heard they might get decals. My suggestion is if you're going to have metal ramps then do something that metal is good at. Laser cut them with some runes or designs. The metal ramps on Metallica are way cool with the M laser cut in. Make the sides where the ball doesn't roll look cool.

I can't tell if the diverter is really supposed to be his tail or if Jack just made that up. But right now it's a chunk of metal. If it's supposed to be a tail we need a sculpt or something to make that work.

4) The drop targets are the big feature of the game. I'd like to see decals or something on the standups behind them, make it so when you drop the target to reveal the standup behind it like you're revealing more. The color of the drop and standup was a little too close, low contrast, made the feature not pop enough.

5) The book! It's just weird. If it's not a placeholder decide it is one. It's open half way to show the beginning, which makes no sense, and it's just visually unappealing and odd. First you have a dragon with big coins that looks like a large dog, and then there's a giant book, that's like the same size as Smaug. Feels super weird. I thought we'd get a sculpt of bag end at least. I think most people were expecting that with an LCD screen replacing the door. Would have been so much cooler. If the LCD isn't possible maybe Bilbo's house at least is? You had a freaking spinning house in WOZ, and an LCD toy! Come on, you can't sell this game for as much or more and have less.

Those are my off the top of the head thoughts about what I'd love to see get more attention, without a total redesign, which is obviously not practical.

OK I'll try to think of a positive comment....

The lip sync of the Smaug toy is very accurate when talking.

Thanks...

Hey I agree with you guys 100% but its too early to make these assumptions, how to you know that TH won't go down as one of the greats in time and TBL in a serious over hyped phase that will cool in time. I'm just saying all reviews and opinions are respected but you can't judge a movie by the coming attractions. Not to mention that this is not a majority rules regime, I'm not blown away by TBL at all and I wouldn't bash right now cause how the hell do I know what kind of pin it is, by the first plays at an expo or minute long videos? please its not like this is anything new so why keep repeating it when it only has a deleterious effect.

Sorry I'm just getting a little tired of the bashing.

Rare you need to change post with this smiley face to Nsync it up with Smaug.

Thats funny because most of us went to expo and did meet face to face and shot the shit and had honest opinions on both sides. Where were you?
I post here and as many I met honest and the exact damn thing I will say to your face.

Great post Aurich!!! The big question is, has JJP the time for changes or are we locked with this version of the game?

Agree with all your points. The VUK one seems like an easy one to correct.

This again, may not be too bad to do as well and would bring good value add as well. Perhaps have the runes say something similar to what is on the map when pointing out the key hole?

Yeah...this is just not adding any real value and missed a great opportunity with a great Bag End toy. The Hobbit hole would be beautiful and I would think more like what you would expect from JJP machines.

By the way, who is the designer of the pin right now? He should be getting this stuff corrected.

The designer of the game, Joe Balcer, hasn't been with JJP for awhile now.

Is there a currently active designer?

I didn't call you out, you just did though.

Oh I forgot one: The axes!

Easy to change the annoying ping sound when they get hit (seriously, change it) but they just don't look right. Apparently they're metal? I dunno about that, they looked pretty dang plastic to me. And we've already seen a pic of them with the rest of the plastics. So I'll need to see some proof that they're not.

Anyone happen to take a closeup pic? I wish I'd thought to photograph a lot more, but it was hard with the show floor being so busy and so much to distract you. Look, a squirrel!

That is the mystery, isn't it...Pat Lawlor is off doing his own thing. Does JJP have mechanical engineers? I would assume that they're "the designer" for the Hobbit as of right now.

I am in on TH for now with just one payment. My distro, for whatever reason, did not require the whole payment schedule.

As it stands now, I may have to cancel. I would love to have a TH inn the middle of my WOZ and LOTR, but I am not going to be able to 'release the arrow' on this one yet.

Smaug has got to be the biggest single fail I have seen on a new pinball machine. No other way to put it. It could have been so much better. Aurich's suggestion of a sleeping Smaug that wakes up, but that you can always see, is better than peekaboo Smaug.

They could have had an articulated Smaug - neck and head, or torso/neck/head dragon that moves his wings, moves his neck - anything (doesn't have to eat balls or upset licensor). Could have engaged NECA or any number of companies that have licensed and NAILED Smaug likenesses. Don't kid yourselves - the fact that it is not better than it is, has ZIP to do with licensor and everything to do with JJP.

If the licensor has approved it as it is now, that might be proof they don't care that much.

Either way you really shouldn't tell people to take their ball and go away just because they don't like or feel the same way about a game as you. In any case these discussion are great for the manufacturers and designers to read so they can gauge collectors taste and wants, that way hopefully they will have less misses and more hits. After all they need to sell games to us to stay in business.

Made me LOL.

Yeah, we need somebody to be the Pinside dick that speaks the truth! You are perfect for that role Greg. JK

Good stuff, excellent reviews, Aurich too….

I can vouch, he does say the same thing to your face. So does Fattrain and McCune.

On the plus side, TH has Keith doing the code and the LCD integration is F ing amazing…….

At the end of the day, with some changes, this could be a great pin, a lot of people thought Woz was shit (some still do) and it evolved into a great pin, imho…….

So don't lose faith fellas, I would have stayed in if I didn't already have a Lotr LE and Aliens been announced and the TBL hadn't blown it out.

For all the shit Stern and JJP get, they have the two best programmers in Keith and Lyman.

The rest of these guys, it remains to be seen doesn't it

Wait, me too what? Pinside dick?

Maybe TH would benefit from some sort of mountain facade over the tops and to the sides of the 2 center ramps. Maybe some lighting effects behind it...simulated lightning?

I love my LOTR and REALLY want to like TH. It seemed unfinished to me this weekend, I think it might have been a mistake to show it prematurely...hoping to see some upgrades. Jury is still out.

"Did you preordered THLE? Are you going to..."

Not going through that pain of waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and.......

You know, maybe this is just what you get from back-to-back pins from the same designer, but it's funny how JJP pins are kind of EM-like in feel. WOZ with the no real ramps or flow shots, all the rollovers, it felt like a modern EM design in a lot of ways. Even down to the "ding!" sound.

Hobbit is almost like fast forwarding to the next stage of EM design, when Gottliebs had an abundance of drop targets. I mean, I have 10 on my Abra Ca Dabra, and that's only half as many as some!

And normally we love drops! We bitch when the Stern Pros lose them.

The more I think about Hobbit it just feels like maybe it's not so much any one part that's "broken", but that it's just not gelling right.

For me it starts with the art. You don't have to be a designer, or even think like one, to have that influence you. WOZ had a really nice blend of hand drawn art and Photoshop by Greg Freres. The Witch between the flippers looked great, and the spiral of the Yellow Brick Road was an anchor in the middle of a widebody. The colors popped, you felt like the various shots and paths that wandered through the layout flowed between the actual design and the art.

Hobbit has this empty feel, and you look at the unpopulated playfield and it's obvious why. What's in the middle? A weirdly scaled shot of Smaug, and an empty sky. The mountain and everything around it feels distant and empty and vast. The popups that dominate the underside of the playfield mean there's little in the way of lit inserts, and until they rise there's just nothing to see.

Add that to the game being a widebody, and it's pretty clear where the problem stems from.

Now we throw in a couple enclosed metal VUKs, that are "mystery meat" in terms of seeing anything inside of them or past them, Smaug who's a big blob of grey when he's not engaged, and also unable to be hit with the ball (wasn't there a wireform going around him in the original blueprint?) and you start to see why even the top of the game feels limited.

There are two ramps, but they're slammed so close together it's almost just two variations on one shot. It's a widebody game with vast expanses of emptiness, blocked areas, and shots crammed close together. The book, so strange and inexplicable, just blocks the view of another area the ball can move in. Why make the pops have sculpts on top and then hide them?

Maybe there's really more to shoot here than you realize at first, and I truly to trust Keith to make something happen, but it's like he's pushing a boulder up hill.

Does it count that I just deleted Hobbit from my Wishlist?
Lebowski or Bust!!

Great reviews, not "dick", too nice of a guy, and I was kidding about Greg!

We all need to hear the truth, not what we want to hear, even if we don't agree with it.

I must know something if Aurich agrees, I said that from day one, scale of Smaug, empty sky, etc. too serene feeling.

I had been in on TH for about a year. I just emailed JJP to cancel my order. I have WOZLE and love it and had high hopes for TH. I am very dissapointed in what I have seen. Smaug is a huge failure in my opinion. The Bag End area is not interactive. Surely the people at JJP knew this game, as is, wouldn't be received well. I can't imagine they would be that out of touch with the pinball community.

I hope the game turns out great and everyone is happy with it who gets one. I wish JJP all the success in the world and will eagerly await Pat's game, but I'm not going to spend 8k on something I am not excited about.

You're right. Listen I'm not stupid and its not like TH from what I've seen is blowing my mind if they don't take some of the criticism or upon further gameplay videos nothing grabs me then I'll be transferring my deposit funds to the Alien pin which I will have to buy. I just think the initial response in being taken to seriously when we know first impressions mean nothing. We all want every pin to be great but no developer is immune to making a dud, could be.

Right back at you. Good on you for understanding.

lol, yes John you nailed me and the others who meet face to face and gave honest interaction while you make your point in your underwear back home.
Just ridiculous arguing with people who have no founded opinions.
Your specific comment was about anonominty yet we made the effort and you did not .
So ok , zing you got me...

What concerns me is the deafening silence from JJP. In the face of this Jack has popped up and said "hey, it's got modes and a button and the diverter is really a tail!". And that's it. So I'm just not really full of faith that the criticism has a response. I don't feel like there's a magic unveiling of new shit that's going to pop up next month.

If there is, great! If it changes the game for the better I'll be the first to say so. But all I can judge is what I saw with my own eyes, and what Jack has said since. There hasn't been any "this is just an alpha guys, wait until we finish it" kind of speech.

Same concerns from me, seems like this is final.

I've thought about it a lot and only one thing makes sense. They just don't know themselves. Not 100%. I think they may be working on an alternative (to the book for example) ... but they may not have it working 100% or at a reliability level that they feel comfortable proclaiming it will be in the game 100%. They're going to bust their butts over the next 6 or 7 weeks to fix (or improve) as many things as possible ... but they just can't guarantee much more than what they've shown at expo unfortunately. If they could I think they would say something. They're doing the safe and smart thing (IMO) and focusing on the great things that are there in the game today and the few things they feel confident they can add or will be there when game #1 ships (such as the button on the lockdown bar, maybe some decals or etching on the ramp, etc.)

I honestly think they have been blown away by the success that TBL has had there and pins like Alien with Nordman drawing huge attention. They have to be shocked that both them and Stern just got their ass kicked. If they aren't, then they are in denial.

Expo is a huge game changer and I just don't think they saw it coming. Without all the other competition, maybe people would perceive it differently and hang in there longer with it, like we all did with Woz, despite some overwhelming negatives along the way.

They might be down but I wouldn't count them out. If Pat's game doesn't blow the roof off the joint then I'd be shocked.

And I'll say they better get hopping on Pat's announcement now, the available pool of $$$ is flowing into many other different directions now. It does zero good to keep a pin secret at this point. Better get it out there and grab those $$$.

Look at what Heighway did with Alien and all the pre orders they are booking, if its true, Pat's game is almost done?

Sometimes. Aren't you adorable.

I know, right? I get so tired of Rarehero constantly bashing Metallica and ACDC and Revenge from Mars and Lord of the Rings and No Good Gofers and White Water and Monster Bash and Tron and Circus Voltaire and Addams Family and Bride of Pinbot and Star Trek and I'm getting tired of remembering the games that he has and loves and praises all the time.

I'm just not that worried.

The company is actually producing a sophisticated product in volume.

I love my woz.

I think i see where TH is going gameplay-wise.

I feel comfortable that there are some significant things we haven't seen yet.

I am confident that i have plenty of time to get a refund if I don't like the product after more gets revealed.
But i have absolutely no desire to request a refund at all at this point.

Hmmm. Oh, well. Peace.

I think if Jack released info on Pats game right now you might as well put a nail in the hobbits coffin because I would say they'd be lucky to sell 200.

Like what? I think Smaug himself seems to be biggest disappointment BY FAR. Especially since he was (is) to be the main mechanical toy on the playfield that folks thought would directly interact with the ball. I don't think he'll change. Other things may be added.

I do agree with this. I would absolutely be patient and wait another 6 or 7 weeks to see what develops. You just never know. I don't think replacing the book will turn this into something epic, but with all things considered this can still be a great game (top 50 all time easily). People seem to always feel like the next game coming out should be the new #1 of all time or else they're disappointed.

I agree, that's his dilemma. Tough call for them. I hope it works out.

I keep thinking, if you re theme Funhouse and Roadshow with all the genius on those two and throw in a little TZ maybe you'd have a monster hit on your hands. Oh yeah, Lawlor is up next

Damn, I keep forgetting to turn off the camera, thanks! I'm sure you are candid and unfiltered with your buds, I am as well but you missed my point. All I was saying is people shouldn't post dickish comments, on a public forum. What may be funny to your crowd might be offensive to those that are the brunt of the joke. Like, that was out loud dude...

Yeah…well…you know it’s just like, uh, your opinion man…

Screw it, if the hobbit doesn't roll right at the end of the year I am going to pull my order and get the TRON Premium.

I see what you did there.

Don't tell Frax