Hey DI owners,

Based on other DI threads, folks have noticed the wireform feeding the left inlane exhibit's the following issues when the ball is traveling at high speeds:

#1: The ball can escape the wireform, resulting in frustrating drains.
#2: The ball can bounce a couple inches up the ramp and dribble down, slowing game play.

On my game, #1 rarely happens after minor adjustments to the precise resting location of the ramp.
On my game, #2 happens very often and would be nice to fix.

JJP has developed a plastic cover that eliminates #1, however doesn't address #2.

Earlier today, I was playing Aerosmith (right beside DILE in the lineup) and noticed how lightening fast the right ramp/wireform plays. Ball never escapes and never bounces...shoots fast & smooth. I decided to compare the designs - here is what I noticed:

#1: The AS wireform has a built-in cage, which prevents the ball from escaping. DI has no cage.
#2: The AS wireform exit top is tapered up, which avoids ball bounce. The taper encourages the ball to exit quickly, by striking it up top, not in the center.
#3: The AS wireform trail is 7/8" and the DI wireform trail is 3/4". The ball sits a tad lower, avoiding direct contact with the wireform and ball bounce.

I'd love to see JJP redesign the *exit portion* of the wireform to work more smoothly.

To demonstrate the difference in ball motion/flow, here are 2 slow motion videos of the ramp exit in action:

DI: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dJsHvHoJ8Umaa
Aerosmith: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dGKQPy6GO7UwH

From my perspective, Dialed In is one of the best shooting games of all-time and would benefit from this enhancement. Since this wireform is long & costly, I'd be happy to pay for a new wireform if JJP re-engineered it to fix both problems.

Curious if other DI owners would like to see a more complete solution (than the plastic cover currently being installed).

Thoughts?

snaroff

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For my machine, the bouncing up is frequent...not occasional.

As I said in my original post, the frequency of this happening is directly related to the ball speed. Sounds like my machine shoots faster than yours. My coil settings are 100% default from factory. No doubt dialing down my flippers would diminish the ball bounce.

Precisely my point. The Borg/AS wireform design is arguably more robust and was designed to handle balls traveling at high speeds.

At the moment, 42% would like to see the wireform improved to better handle balls traveling at high speeds.

Thanks to the 33 folks that participated in the poll!

snaroff

I didn't touch the poll...odd. Please check again...it's short, so maybe you missed it?

Here is a 15 second video I just shot to clearly identify the issue. It looks more dramatic in slo-motion, however it shows how far the ball bounces. This happens often on my machine.

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dJsHvHoJ8Umaa

Still love the way DI shoots, but fixing this problem would improve it from my perspective considerably. It's a very common shot.

snaroff

Again, I view it differently. Here's my perspective...

If 1 out of 100 balls fall off the ramp, it's not a big deal. So the fix they've come up with doesn't impact me, since it happens so infrequently on my machine.

If 1 of 3 balls bounces (as shown in the video), it's a constant annoyance that disturbs the otherwise awesome flow of this game.

If you aren't willing to acknowledge the Borg/AS wireform design is more robust again drains/bounces, then I don't know what else to say!

snaroff

I have to give you one thing...you are tenacious!

Using your argument above, the following would also be considered acceptable since the ball didn't actually fall off the ramp.

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dJ058xyJRiHDa

snaroff

On DI or AS? Not really interested in investing more time in this...showing what a smooth shooting wireform looks like should be fairly obvious

The poll shows I'm not the only one that would like to see it improved. I also pinged JJP...even if nothing is done for DI, hopefully they will consider the issues for the next game.

In any event, it's really not a major issue. On the positive side, the bounce gives you more time to plan your next shot. There ya go, it's not a bug...it's a feature!

If I didn't love the game so much, I wouldn't have invested any time on something like this!

snaroff

How is the fix not right when it was suggested by Pat Lawlor, the games designer? Do you think Pat/JJP asked me the "hack" the ramp because they changed the ramp and don't want to send me a new one? When I was getting JJP's help on the issue back in November, you weighed in and were consistently wrong...arguing the switches were somehow responsible (which I disproved pretty quickly).

If it isn't obvious, these are rhetorical questions. Please don't feel compelled to answer.

snaroff

You are imagining changes that I am not suggesting. As you say, the habitrail over the center PF looks great as is. No debate.

This can be fixed with modest changes to the last 2 inches of wireform (the same segment that is covered by the plastic enclosure that JJP developed to keep the ball from falling off).

snaroff

I have no plans to sell Dialed In, but I've sold many games over the years and have never had one unhappy customer. Not one. Some of the most critical players/collectors on both coasts have played my games and always comment on the beauty, condition, and gameplay.

Listen, the poll speaks for itself...46% of owners care about the wireform design issues. I'm not alone.

Is it practical to expect a DI wireform rework to avoid the issues I've outlined? Maybe not, but it doesn't hurt to point out that Stern designers figured out how to solve these problems. From my perspective, the plastic cage is a half-hearted, stop-gap solution.

At a minimum, I'm hopeful JJP will improve the wireform design in their next pinball!

snaroff

Thanks for the thoughtful reply!

The AS habitrail is incredibly efficient and has to deal with an aggressive turn and ball speed, that's why I thought it was an interesting comparison. If they weren't together in the lineup being played back-to-back, I'm not sure I would have compared the 2 in this regard.

My pleasure on the video...glad you like it! I should probably video the AS ramp for completeness so we can see in slo-motion how it works so flawlessly

snaroff

He's right. I refuse to get nasty with you, since last time the Pinside moderators stepped in.

I have respect for this forum. Now you need to show a little respect and move on. It's my post and your voice has been heard.

snaroff

Correct, but the video demonstrates a common occurrence on MY machine. Every machine is unique. As I've stated several times, the bounce issue will only occur when the ball is traveling fast. I've played DI on location and this issue NEVER happens. Why? The DI on location plays considerably slower than my machine. I imagine a significant % of the "Don't care" fall into this category. If the flippers haven't been tuned, chances are they aren't operating at full strength.

I'm certain that other fast playing DI's will exhibit this problem. Based on some of the responses, it's clear that even when it occurs, some folks aren't bothered by it. Cool.

Nevertheless, I strive to tune my machines to perfection, so this issue bothers me (since it's difficult for me to fix). Waiting for the ball to bounce/return effects the otherwise awesome flow of this game.

snaroff

Yep. Here is a video of the Aerosmith wireform in action. The ball behaves exactly as described in my original post. The tapered endpoint strikes the ball toward the top, pushing it into the hole, rather than back up the wireform! Here are the 2 links back-to-back for comparison.

Aerosmith: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dGKQPy6GO7UwH
DI: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dJsHvHoJ8Umaa

snaroff

Interesting. Yeah, 1 in 100 wouldn't annoy me. The ball bounces out 1 in 100 and it doesn't bother me at all. If it did, I'd order the plastic cover JJP developed.

I sent JJP links to the video and this post/poll yesterday. They know how much I love DI. If I didn't, I wouldn't be wasting my time on this!

I could certainly hire a metal worker with the appropriate tools to fix this, however I don't have the time/energy to go that far. I've contracted out wireform work when I restored my GNR, but that was a different context/issue. Don't know if you are aware, but GNR had 3 different wireform designs to deal with wonky shooter lane issues. No joke.

snaroff

Please stop lying. I never said this was a "design flaw that needed to be fixed". I did say "The Borg/AS wireform design is arguably more robust and was designed to handle balls traveling at high speeds.". And I stand by that statement.

Without seeing the specifications for the part, it's impossible for either of us to know if it is a design or manufacturing flaw. The fact that JJP developed a plastic cage to keep the ball from bouncing out and draining would suggest the wireform design is flawed.

Fact is, some of these ramps are bent differently than others. Some bends promote the bounce, other bends prevent the bounce. If the plastic cage they developed was capable of solving the bounce problem, I'm sure they would have incorporated it.

It's my post and I'll say what I believe. If my comments are so disturbing/annoying to you, it's possible to ignore this post or me entirely. Please?

snaroff

Exactly...not rocket science

When the ball stays on the wireform, it's "Stop and drop".
When the ball goes off the rails, it's "Bounce and dribble down".

The slow motion videos tell the story. If you look at it frame-by-frame, the ball is airborne about 2" before hitting the end of the wireform. Because it is airborne, it hits the ball in a spot that causes it to bounce back rather than "drop".

snaroff

The online copy works great for me. It's almost 300 pages...searching/indexing/etc. is really useful.

snaroff

A wedge might help, but if you look at the video frame-by-frame, you can see that the ball becomes airborne where the fastening rod is connected (2" from the end). If the ball is airborne and goes "off the rails" prior to the wedge start, it wouldn't help this case.

Before analyzing the video, I was convinced a wedge might solve this problem.

Nice diagram, btw! Thanks for contributing...keep the ideas coming.

I actually just did some minor adjustments and believe it's happening far less now. I need to do more testing and report back.

snaroff

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dialed-in-owners-and-fans-club/page/42#post-4134733

snaroff

So after studying the video a bit more, I decided to adjust the wireform with the goal of keeping the ball on the rails.

As soon as the ball goes off the rails, all bets are off (the design of the wireform isn't very forgiving).

I did the following:

- shimmed the ramp up 1/8" using 2 plastic washers.
- moved the ramp ~1/4" closer to the player.
- bent the ramp up a bit by hand. Not sure I had much impact, since the metal doesn't bend easily (1/8" max).

I've played 5 games hammering the ramp and it hasn't failed once. No bounce outs or bounce ups. Before/after photos attached.

Left wireform finally playing smoothly...very jazzed

Hope my experience will help other folks having this problem Dial In their game!

snaroff

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Sure. It won't be as exciting, but I'll try and take one tomorrow after I do a bit more testing.

snaroff

Here ya go...the before/after videos can be found here:

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dJsHvHoJ8Umaa

Thanks for asking for this...had no plans to take another video but ended up learning something from it.

Based on the improved ball motion, I would have bet the ball was no longer going "off the rails". Turns out it is still going "off the rails", but the new pitch/position of the wireform is more forgiving than the factory location. The ball hits slightly topside (which forces it down into the hole), instead of it hitting smack in the middle or slightly underneath (which forces it back up the wireform or out of the cage entirely).

Just to be clear, I don't believe this is a 100% solution, but now the bounce backs are happening MUCH less frequently. Maybe 1-of-50 shots down from of 1-of-2.5. 2% bounce backs doesn't bother me at all! Haven't had ANY bounce outs, so it's unlikely I will install the plastic protector.

Would still prefer a more defensive design to avoid bounce outs & bounce backs entirely, but that's a JJP decision.

Just relieved I found an acceptable solution. The left ramp shots are much more fun without watching the ball bounce and dribble 40% of the time!

snaroff